As many as in the United states?
At least 150 Superchargers in Europe? But I would prefer even more.
It wouldn't be nice if a certain part of Europe is left out.
I think that they will start placing them in the Western part of Europe, and as the time goes by they will step by step go to the Eastern part of Europe.
Depends on permissions and available sites. Might be the reverse.
Having recently completed a motorcycle tour of Eastern Europe, I have doubts there would be much demand for Teslas there, just as there are almost no luxury car dealers there except in the major cities. Most of the vehicles we saw there were very old, many Soviet-era, interspersed with ox carts and inexpensive newer Korean and Spanish autos. Didn't see a single Porsche, Ferrari, or even high end Benz. Declining population does not make a good argument for investment. It was a great trip, but unimaginable place to live. The Czech Republic was better than Poland, which was better than Hungary, which was better than Slovakia, but everywhere people are looking for ways to get out. Formerly great societies and interesting cultures, but not much geographic interest compared to Western EU.
And there won't be hundreds in Europe. The wildest plan for the US is dozens, not hundreds. The whole west coast is covered end to end by only eight or nine chargers. Tesla's stated goal is to cover all US intercity travel requirements with fewer than 100 Superchargers. Remember that these are intended not for regular use in urban areas, rather primarily for long distance travel.
I would expect Europe to have proportionately fewer than we need in the US because it is more compact and dense. People will be able to charge at home and make it easily to another city where they can charge on the government-provided units. Socialism will trump the capitalist model and Tesla won't need to spend the money on a zero-return network. Hard to compete with "free".
Europe as area is just as big as US. We need approximately same amount of chargers. Also I don't think Norwegian people would like to go to Sweden to charge, so possibly more because countries are countries, not states.
TM's US map showed 100 by the end of 2013, and 193 by the end of 2015 or so.
Not hardly. "The area of the United States (including Alaska and Hawaii) is 9,161,923 km2, while the area of Europe is 3,788,027 km2. The United States is almost two and a half times the size of the European Union." And 40% of Europe's area is in Russia. So the comparison is really about 9 vs 2.2 million square km. About 4:1!
Here's a fun map: http://goeurope.about.com/od/europeanmaps/l/bl-country-size-comparison-m...
Europe is over 10 million km^2. I don't know which part of the Europe is that 3.7 million, but that definitely is not the whole Europe. Even if we would not count the area in Russia it would still add up over 6 million km^2.
Brian - Tesla promised 13 SC in CA by YE 2013 and 86 SC in US within 2 years (YE2014). In my book Tesla is ahead of schedule. But about 100 SCito cover the US is probably what is needed...
In Europe you need only 3 SC to got from the North Sea to the Swiss Alps... 150 seem way excessive compared to 100 in the US.
However in Europe the conditions are completely different. In the US many people have a garage with resonable power outlet (dryer). In Europe only few have a garage, most people park on the street. Running a charging cable over the walkway at night is not a good solution. The current Tesla solution "charge your car at night in your garage" is perfect for the US but will not work in Europe. It will be interesting how Tesla will address the situation in Europe in the coming years.
Yes, overnight charging is going to be tough to arrange for most! Maybe a new business: Tesla garages, where you park and charge every night for a monthly fee?
"In Europe you need only 3 SC to got from the North Sea to the Swiss Alps"
And another three to get from Hanko to Utsjoki within Finland. Sweden and Norway are longer.
Conditions in Europe are different than in US for road trips. Some small country like Netherlands you could cover with one or not at all if you put it in nearby country, but there's the problem, it would be in nearby *country*. Not state.
Tesla Motors has decided to have its Distribution Center in Tilburg, The Nethelands. That means that all the Tesla EV's that are manufactured for the European market and are coming from the Tesla Motors factory in Fremont will first go to Tilburg, The Netherlands. That's pretty important, I would think. And the first Supercharger will be put nearby this Tesla Motors Distribution Center in Tilburg, The Netherlands. That makes sense to me.
By the way, I think there will be in total 4 Superchargers in The Netherlands.
Four? Why? Longest possible route I can get with Google maps in Netherlands is about 400km. One is sufficient to that, two would be plenty, four is overkill.
If the SC density is 4 in that small area, then 150 total is severe underestimation. Extrapolating from that I get about 700 of them for 6 million km^2.
Brian, I don't see tat many on the map, but Tesla excs have stated numerous times that 100 will cover the entire US long distance travel requirement.
Benz, where TM puts service sales and import locations bears no relation to Supercharger locations. The first two SC locations in the eastern US are many miles away from any TM facility. That's by design. TM facilities go where population is concentrated. Superchargers go specifically where population is NOT concentrated, so that people can make it from one population center to the next, and then plug into the regular chargers that are already at many commercial locations, home, and work.
Timo, Europe is definitely 3.9 million square miles (10.1 sq km) and much smaller than North America's land area. That includes all of Russia. And travel there works just like in the US. I have driven and motorcycled in and between every EU country and have never encountered a barrier (since about 1999).
They said a hundred would be minimally adequate, but I counted. The full map had 193.
P_D; 10.1 Mkm^2 is larger than US which is 9Mkm^2. Brian H or I didn't say "North America". That's a lot bigger than US.
EU might not be permanent, and not all countries in Europe are members of EU. Countries are countries there, not states, and rules between borders might change.
@Timo; however, you already know that SCs are meant for long distance travel, placed strategically on the major routes. Not for everyday use. I.e. a person from the Netherlands would typically charge at home, but would charge in Belgium on their trip to France...
Yes, SCs should be linked to data bases, and refuse to charge MSes owned by anyone living closer than 150 km. ;) ;p
Benz mentioned that there will be four SC in Netherlands. That's a lot for that small area.
I don't know what TM thinks is the best placements for SC:s in Europe, but it is different place than US. Languages change, cultures change and rules change between borders, not everybody understands everyone else. I think you might want to put at least one in every small country (miniature countries not counted).
Tesla Motors know where their customers are located. This information will be used when Tesla Motors will decide where the Superchargers are going to be located.
Luxemborg will get 12 because they are rich and Poland will get none because all the poles with money already live in London...
Seriously 3 would cover NL ok.
If I was in the government of Andorra, Lichenstein or San Marino I would seriously push to get a supercharger site as it would bring in high end visitors...
@Kleist " In Europe only few have a garage, most people park on the street. Running a charging cable over the walkway at night is not a good solution. "
You are absolutely right about most people, however people who buy a €80.000 car are not "most people". I'm pretty sure most of them have a garage. For the Gen3 car this however is going to be a serious issue in Europe.
@P_D; "I have driven and motorcycled in and between every EU country and have never encountered a barrier (since about 1999)."
Very true as far as fysical barriers are concerned but crossing into another county just to get juiced up is something only people who live really close to a border are used to. Would people who live in the south of California be cool about crossing into Mexico to juice up if that country is not your actual destination? I don't know.
@ArieK - you are right it doesn't apply to current MS buyers. In the US the charge at home model at night and travel long distance via SC is very extenable well beyond Gen3. Question was what is a practical model/ concept in Europe? And the question is EV in general in Europe not limited to Tesla.. I can think of only two convenient places to charge daily: home and work.
Commercial neighbourhood charging garages? Pay for a spot and electricity, as often as needed.
@ Brian H
"Commercial neighbourhood charging garages? Pay for a spot and electricity, as often as needed."
And have solar panels on the roof of these garages. And a "massive battery" in these garages that can store lots of electricity. And charge the EV with the electricity that has been stored in this "massive battery", so that charging at night is possible as well. That would be a good idea, I think.
Has such a "massive battery" already been developed and manufactured? Can it already be bought on the market?
Batteries can be stacked as high as you want.
Benz - e.g. MS battery assembly - 6 feet high are 18 stacked packs times 60kWh ( e.g. used 85kWh packs ) gives you about 1GWh in the space that a single car occupies.
You mean 1MWh. k(ilo)-M(ega)-G(iga).
Yes that was supposed be MWh... Nice catch.
@ Brian, Kleist & Timo
But those battery packs have been devoloped to be used in a driving EV. Can they also be used in a garage where the battery pack does not move at all? I mean to say that these batteries then only are used for temporary storage of electricity, so that the stored electricity can be transferred to the battery of an EV?
You are sometimes so enthusiastically confused it's hard to grasp. A battery stores charge, whether it moves or not. Direct DC/DC battery transfer "averages" charge levels. A big battery can thus charge a small battery without losing much voltage.
"Direct DC/DC battery transfer "averages" charge levels. A big battery can thus charge a small battery without losing much voltage."
That is good.
What is the current price of such a massive battery? Does anybody have an idea?
I don´t think that todays batteries are good enough to store energy that will then charge other batteries. Batteries both "uncharge" themselves and lose capasity over time. I think a better way to store the energy would be using hydrogen. Whenever someone plugged their Tesla in, the hydrogen could be used to power a generator that would charge the car. This way you could also store more energy in less space.
So you're comfortable driving a hydrogen bomb?
No ignition A-bomb to set off the fusion reaction. Storing hydrogen is tough, though. It leaks.
If you would come up with residential, nightly park&charge garages, actually storing the energy (from a relatively small PV system) would not be beneficial or cost effective. As you would be able to sell your generated kWh at the peak (selling) price, and then charge the batteries of the cars using the off-peak (asking price). You would be able to make a pretty sustainable business out of it.
I hope they also take into account that most highways in Europe have quite high speed limits (130km/h / 80mph), which according to this blog is (in theory!) around:
- 200 miles (320km) for the 85kWh,
- 150 miles (240km) for the 60kWh.
Gentleman, driving in The Netherlands, with a 85kW Model S means that you will need definitely 4 SuperChargers.
The reason is as follows; living in the centre (say Utrecht) and driving down to the South (say Terneuzen) would mean a travel distance of 420km (2-way). Based on the fact that the speed limit on the motorway is 120 or 130km/hr it woud mean that you will need approx. 80kW as the Model S is making max. 5km at 1kW.
As the batterypack will never allow you to use 80kW you cannot even cover this distance without re-charging.
As I am driving an Ampera at this moment I KNOW that is the South West there is no possibility to charge the
batteries within less than 4-6 hours as there are no public chargers. Probably this will answer some of your queries and show that one will have to build at least four chargers in The Netherlands.
I'm assuming TM might need to put them at around 200km apart from each other. They can choose to put them in between big cities, but in the BENELUX, this becomes really odd as major cities are < 100km apart.
So here is my guestimated proposal for Belgium:
1 at the border of NL A16 (Breda)- BE E19 (A'pen)
1 at the border of FR A22 (Lille) - BE E17 (Kortrijk)
1 at the border of NL A2 (Maastricht) - BE E42(Liège)
1 at the border of LUX A3 - FR A31 (Thionville)
In NL a similar pattern around the 'Randstad' could provide the required range extension for road trips. In France and Germany the SC would more likely be positioned similar to the US pattern.
Yeah, as far apart as possible to maximize their "efficiency", but as close as necessary to make them reachable by most drivers. Of course, if the cities are really close, they're not as needed.
I really like the philosophy of Tesla, and I think they are on the right way. There are not many people which really do long time trips verry often (>6 times per year). But for my Tesla car I would expect to reach any destination without a big effort, means, I would not like to take more than half an hour of extra miles to charge my car.
So for many people from Germany, it will be a knockout criteria if they could not convenient drive to the favorite holiday location in winter to the alps (Austria, Swiss, France), and summer holidays to Italy to the beach.
Therefore I think it is important to consider the typically long distance trips from a country itself, and the typically trips through a country. For example in a small country like Austria I would wish to have at least 4 super charger stations at Vienna, Salzburg, Graz, Innsbruck. Optionally I would suggest Bregenz, Klagenfurth, Linz. Linz is strategically important, since many drives to Germany or the Czech Republic pass through the city.
In North Italy I would prefer Bolzano or Trento, Verona, Venezia, Trieste. In Ex Jugoslavia Zagreb, Lublijana, Sarajevo, Zadar, Duzbrovnik.
I hope my next car will be an electric one. I hope model X meets my requirements, space for 3 Kids + space for Skis/Snowboard, enough super changing stations in and around Austria, able to charge my care in 30 min, and an acceptable price. However based on my current salary I would like to by not more than 35k€ for a car, this seems to be the biggest challenge. If Tesla can meet this requirements I would not see any reason, to by any other car.
They are placing SuperChargers between cities or in very small ones. Reason is very simple, they don't want you to charge there on daily basis.
But yes, I agree that Tesla needs to put SuperCharging in every country because people will go for vacations between countries. For example we went from Czech Republic to Italy several times and we went by car, not by plane.
right, I do not see the need for free charging, or daily charge on a supercharger station. Most time people will charge at home, or at work. This is or will be possible for many people even in city's many people have a garage, or a parking garage. I just want to say. If there is a reasonable grid of convenient charging station, where I can charge my car in around 30 Min (which is ok, for a lunch, or longer coffee break), then I would feel 100% sure to reach anything. Means with my electric care I can do 100% of my travel. Not like the philosophy of many other producers like BMW, VW, Renaut, which focus on the two car strategy, one small electric one for short distances, and one for larger travels. I do not need and want two cars.
Dots on a map with range circles around them do not tell the story. Stop it!
If you can't install a charger available at home, and you are low, do you drive to a dot to get a charge and then drive back home?
Are you going to a public charger and wait an hour for 16 miles of driving? That is absurd.
Densely situated Superchargers and swapping stations are the only real answer. They need to be in every city, town, community and along driving routes. I suggest a for-profit model to speed the adaptation. This would be even more successful in Europe where gas prices are so high and in Asia where so many people live in apartment buildings and condos.
The more important reason is that they are not as useful at the origin or destination as they are in-between. That's where you need the boost - in the middle of your trip, not at the beginning or end. People don't "fear" running out of charge at home or after arrival; overnight charging is available there, in general. It's the missing middle that needs to be filled.
The solution to the no-home-charging apartment and condo problem will have to wait. When saturation of the rest of the market is in sight, there will be ideas and schemes aplenty, probably, but it is silly to try and deal with that up front.
It won't be long before the GenIIIs are out and marketed to a broad and fickle population that will hear a lot of negativity about electric cars. Charging will be foremost on their minds.
The only important question is how to get enough stations and then how long is the wait at them. Even magical 1000-mile batteries need charging and people will still want convenient local access to the charger/swapper.
So, Brian H, there really isn't much to wait on. Stations need to be built regardless of anything else. There are questions of technology that Tesla already knows which will determine the specifications. For example, if the next gen battery can be charged fully and quickly, then swapping stations are not needed, but maybe a new charger cable is. All this is arcane stuff that Tesla people solve on napkins at lunch.
Tesla has to make a decision on whether to monetize these station or not, or to franchise or partner-up. Unless Tesla wants to be the world's gas station and make that a new and somewhat separate business, it would probably be better to let others expand the charger base and use the profit motive to make this happen.
Well, we'll see. I doubt that those approaches or solutions will be used. In-city charging will certainly be a prominent issue within a few years, though.
Large capacity batteries will not solve power access issues on their own, of course. They might make swapping more attractive.
I hope Tesla doesn't look at Europe from a "too US-minded" perspective, because the one thing they have to take into account is that average speed limit on European highways is 85 mph (130 kmh), not 55 or 65.
If they set their SC network based on the assumption that drivers would have the same range as in the US and expecting them to drive 55, that would be a huge mistake.