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If ChadeMo adapter becomes available, will Tesla require paying for "supercharger" access still to use it?

If ChadeMo adapter becomes available, will Tesla require paying for "supercharger" access still to use it?

Others may know better, but I recall seeing some information that Tesla says it's reasonable to expect that there will be a ChadeMo charging adapter offered at some point, hopefully soon.

My question is, if this were true, and you could buy this adapter to use other networks DC fast chargers, would you still have to pay to enable Supercharger access (the $2500) to use it?

1) I can easily see that they might require paying for Supercharger, because it uses whatever hardware that involves when you charge DC.
2) But I would hope that they wouldn't, because the Supercharger fee claims to pay for the charging stations, when I for example would be wanting to use Blink chargers around town.

I ask because depending on which policy, 1) or 2), I would then either get the Supercharger add on at purchase, versus not.

Any thoughts? Thanks!

shop | 1 septembre 2013

My guess is that Tesla wouldn't charge you a supercharger fee since the supercharger fee is meant for the built out and operation of the superchargers themselves, and you would be not using those if you charged via Chademo. My guess though, is that the adapter itself won't be cheap - the Roadster adapter cost $650, and it is much simpler.

Kleist | 1 septembre 2013

How much does Nissan charge for DC capability - it is in a $3k option package. I would not be please if TM gives away the DC charge capability for free besides the cost of the adapter.

soma | 1 septembre 2013

So, because you paid for the Supercharge ability, you don't want others to be able to use a different network for free? Hmm.

Kleist | 1 septembre 2013

@soma - you misread. DC capability is an additional service. Why should not pay for an additional service?

create | 1 septembre 2013

So you are basically asking that they unbundle the hardware from the network. I doubt they would do that except maybe in Japan where there is an extensive chademo network and they may not need to roll out superchargers.

jjaeger | 1 septembre 2013

This is actually a good question. Wants DC capability - not SC capability (and all that goes into the SC network). Will be interesting to see the eventual answer on that one.

TeslaLandShark | 1 septembre 2013

This is a really interesting question. The supercharger capablity is turned on through software (I think). In which case Tesla should be able to enable ChadeMo when they eventually sell an adaptor but leave the SC capablity disabled unless the owner pays the upgrade fee to turn SC on.

omarsultan.ca.us | 1 septembre 2013

There are lots of questions around Chademo. Since it bypasses the charging logic in both the on-board chargers or the superchargers (for example the taper) I have some concerns about long-term impact on the battery. May not end up being a problem, but I would also not assume Chademo is just like an SC either.

O

AmpedRealtor | 1 septembre 2013

So the question is this... Do those owners who do not have supercharger access get access to non-Tesla DC charging, or is it an all-or-nothing proposition? I wonder if this is adding to the software complexity to enable CHAdeMO on Model S?

shs | 1 septembre 2013

I also thought that the superchargers were capable of charging considerably faster than CHAdeMO. True?

AmpedRealtor | 1 septembre 2013

Superchargers are faster than CHAdeMO but in some areas like Phoenix, for example, there are over 30 CHAdeMO stations but no superchargers. It would be nice to be able to use them.

shs | 1 septembre 2013

Thanks Amped, I realize that some areas have CHAdeMO and why people want to use them, but locally (Yosemite area) I am discussing installing charging options with various people and some would rather see a "standard" charging option installed rather than a proprietary system as the superchargers are perceived to be. I have used the charging speed argument, and wanted to make sure my argument was correct.

james babb | 1 septembre 2013

Since CHAdeMO uses DC charging, this requires additional hardware on board the car, such as additional wiring, relays, and control circuits. The Roadster, for example, does not have any of this additional hardware, so will never be able to have a CHAdeMO adapter for it (or use a Supercharger). It is reasonable that if you want to use this additional DC hardware, that you pay for it. Just because Tesla includes the hardware on all model S cars that it builds, does not entitle anyone to use it for free. They must predict that most people will eventually want the DC capability, and they didn't want to try to offer it as an upgrade.

With the planned Supercharger network (and CHAdeMO adapter), why would anyone NOT want that option?

joehuber | 1 septembre 2013

Omar: I've wondered about that too. Exactly where does the charge control logic reside and how would it interact with a CHAdeMO charger.

I'm hoping that the charge logic is in the Model S itself and that it communicates with and controls whatever charger is being used, whether its the internal Model S chargers, the external SuperChargers or the possibility of controlling the CHAdeMO chargers via some sort of unannounced adapter.

IF (big IF) that's the case, then I wouldn't expect any difference in long term impact on the battery from using CHAdeMO.

Anyone know how a Model S would likely interact with a CHAdeMO charger?

soma | 1 septembre 2013

The reason for me is that I do not plan to travel superlong distances, and at least for now, don't think the $2000 for the Superchargers is worth it for me. But the ability to quickly charge at Blink DC chargers is very worth something.

I'm sure Tesla could have spun the Supercharger scheme any way they wanted, so I concede that we do not have much say in this. But as it is, the Supercharger $2000 was pitched as "access" to the Supercharger network. It was *not* pitched as a payment to enable the DC charging capabilities of the car.

So there is an argument for expectation that if they issue an adapter for ChadeMo, there shouldn't be a "clawback" fee for allowing us to use other networks, and not subsidizing the Supercharger network.

nickjhowe | 1 septembre 2013

Elon is usually very direct when asked a question. When asked about CHAdeMO he stumbled around for a while and said something to the effect of "very difficult" due to control signals, etc.

I've never seen any official statement from Tesla that they will support CHAdeMO. There was one news report in Japan that said Tesla would support it, but that was an unattributed source and that single report has gone on to be quoted as an official Tesla commitment.

Supercharging is a $2,000 option. I assume some of that is for the charger bypass circuitry/cabling in the car.

IF (big IF) TM supports CHAdeMO, then there might be a possibility they would offer it without SuperCharger access, but that would be a marketing decision.

portia | 1 septembre 2013

slightly off topic...
my dad's 60 does not have SC option, since he does not expect to travel long distance in his car. we had a long argument about using the superchargers in his car. I kept saying since you did not enable the SC option, you can not charge there. He said, why can't he charge there slowly? I said the hardware is not meant for charging that way, then he said how about a regular 240v or 110v outlet at the SC? I said, no they don't have those. So it is slightly interesting, but I personally don't think it is practical for there to be even a 14-40 NEMA outlet for non SC equipped car to charge at a SC, taking up a space, and car charging will taking a long time, but what do you think?

soma | 1 septembre 2013

If he's looking for slow charging, why bother at the SC station anyway? There are hundreds of those around. It's a pointless point. And yes, you can see from other threads that there are pileups waiting at the SC stations already. Who would stand for someone charging slowly? Or does he mean they should install a 240v outlet in some other corner of the lot for him to use?

portia | 1 septembre 2013

yeah, at the corner or something, but I told him it made no sense.

AmpedRealtor | 1 septembre 2013

@ nickjhowe - all Model S come equipped with the hardware necessary for DC charging. The fee to enable supercharger access is a software switch and nothing more. So Tesla is not charging for hardware (we all have it), they are charging for access. If and when the CHAdeMO adapter is made available, it would be very bad PR for Tesla to require people to pay for supercharger access in order to be able to use CHAdeMO DC charging.

The fee for enabling supercharger access presumably also funds the building of those superchargers as well as the cost of electricity used. When none of those are factors in charging via CHAdeMO, it is not fair to charge for things you are not providing.

Kleist | 1 septembre 2013

@soma - DC charging & super charging from the car side is the same... the battery terminals are routed to the outside - Leaf uses a separate charge port, the MS a relay switches between AC and DC.
Besides DC capability the "super charging" option gives you more - the SC network. A CHadeMo adapter will be difficult to design... but in case it becomes available I could imaging the following solution: ChadeMo adapter lets say $3k, but if you have SC enabled you are getting $1.5k off the price.
Note: these are random picked numbers, so please don't get hung up on it. However do not expect that a ChadeMo adapter would be cheap.

ir | 1 septembre 2013

@onarsultan: you misunderstand, DC charging bypasses the onboard AC -> DC rectifiers but the charging logic is separate. It can either control the onboard rectifiers or the control signals go to the rectifiers in the DC charging station. In either case, the car's charging logic is 100% in control at all times.

This is why Elon was mumbling about control being hard. Both Super Charger, CHadeMo and SAE DC chargers have complicated (and incompatible) digital control protocols that go out the plug. Any "adapter cable" will need its own CPU and probably look more like a UMC to do the translation. Doable, but that CPU in the cable better do its job perfectly under bitter cold and melting heat. A misunderstanding in translation and your beautiful $100K car can go up in flames!

soma | 1 septembre 2013

From a marketing standpoint:

I think anything up to $1000 for a ChadeMo adapter would be within the realm of reason - any EV should be working with the emerging standard at this point, as part of (or close to) the base price of a car that accepts DC. More than that and people would feel that they're being penalized for not paying for the Supercharger network. More than $2000 and it would be an outcry of indignation, and accusations of some hidden motives / bad faith on TM's part.

S4WRXTTCS | 1 septembre 2013

My feeling is the cost of the ChadeMo adapter will be expensive ($2K to $3K), but it will include everything needed for ChadeMo charging. Tesla has to come up with some kind of adapter or they're going to have a hard time selling it in certain countries (Japan namely).

I don't think they'll have the requirement that the SC is enabled for the following reasons.

1.) Telsa's goal for SC is long distance travel, and I see the $2K charge for superchargers as a cost of building that infrastructure. In fact as far as I understand it the hardware (that's built into the car) is fairly minimal for Supercharging. The supercharger bypasses the internal charger, and the supercharger takes care of the charging.

2.) The price for charging is already ridiculously high. You have $2K for the SC, and then you have $1.5K for the Twin Chargers (or 2.7K for the TwinCharger/HPWC). You add the cost of a ChadeMo and it just becomes ridiculous.

So my vote is it will be a third option, and will compete against the TwinChargers in peoples mind.

joehuber | 1 septembre 2013

Soma: Keep in mind that Tesla is charging $1,000 for the relatively simple, previously free interior lighting option. And that DC charging is still far from a single standard and so is an extra cost option on the Leaf and other EVs. So I wouldn't be at all surprised if they announced the $3k price that Kleist suggested.

But no one knows, since they haven't announced anything at all yet...

Kleist | 1 septembre 2013

It depends how ChadeMo is growing. Right now the chargers are concentrated in and around cities - no real enhancement for a model S ( we have many in the Bay Area and 2 SC - all to close to my home be useful ). US has 815 and imo all in the wrong place for the MS. EU is planning to phase out ChadeMo by 2019... see how that goes.

S4WRXTTCS | 1 septembre 2013

In and around cities IS an enhancement for the model S.

If you look at the SC network its all placed outside the cities. Like for example on a trip from Seattle to Portland has a supercharger just a little over 80 miles from Portland. So with a 60KW MS you're likely going to want to charge in Portland.

So what choice do you have without a ChadeMO adapter? Slow Level 2 charging so you'll need to spend some time in Portland. Which is normally just fine, but there are a lot of cases where you want to get in the city, turn around and get back out with a fairly quick turn around time.

In fact examples of this is why I struggled so much deciding between a 60 and the 85 (the extra 50 miles really benefits in getting back out of the city back to a supercharger). The Chademo adapter would have made it a simple decision.

S4WRXTTCS | 1 septembre 2013

^ a little over 90 miles is what I meant.

nickjhowe | 1 septembre 2013

@AmpedRealtor - re: "So Tesla is not charging for hardware (we all have it), they are charging for access."

The fact that all cars come with SC hardware does NOT mean they are not charging for it in the $2000. I work for a big IT hardware/software company. How a company charges for elements within a product is massively complicated and sometimes driven as much by emotion as logic.

It is quite possible they are amortizing the cost of the SC hardware in all cars via a component of the $2000 for owners that do buy it. We don't know how they are allocating COGS (Cost of Goods Sold) between the hardware and the SC network fixed and variable costs.

Regardless, how they choose to price a CHAdeMO solution will probably have much more to do with the market and desired behaviour than COGS.

Kleist | 1 septembre 2013

@S4WRXTTCS - there is always a situation where it would be helpful. I could construct a trip where a Roadster adapter would speed things up... do I get one - no.
What are you doing in Portland so quick? Drop off a letter? Just joking. What I have learned is plan your trip and when you are short you do not need hours at the L2 chargers, in most cases it is just 10-20 miles you need. Slowing down driving is faster then the quickest quick charger.

michael1800 | 1 septembre 2013

I think CHAdeMO is an afterthought more than a priority. For some, it's a major hit to convenience, but it's a tricky problem to develop a fix for, especially when you're rolling out your own version of a solution. To address the OP, I think they will develop a solution after a majority of the US SC roll-out if there is still a strong need as vocalized by us, but not before then. As for charging for the capability of CHAdeMO, I think it's a toss-up--if it's an expensive solution that only helps a few (again, consider SCs will be proliferated by the time it gets re-evaluated), they'll likely pass much of that cost on to those that desire it. 100% speculation and assumption on my part.

omarsultan.ca.us | 1 septembre 2013

@lr:

Thanks for the clarification--I always through DC charging jacks directly into the battery and control for charging is transferred to the charger.

Following up on the other topic, from a marketing perspective, I would image the Chademo option is always going to cost more than the SC option. I think Telsa would not want folks explicitly configing their car for Chademo instead of for the SCs.

O

mario.kadastik | 1 septembre 2013

Just wanted to clarify that Elon did claim that CHAdeMO will be supported during the Norwegian interview that he gave after the Geneva motorshow. He stumbles a bit and asks someone on the side who claims JB said Yes and then Elon happily claims Yes CHAdeMO will be supported. Of course no pricing information what that entails.

Also as an indication, if you go to http://www.teslamotors.com/en_EU/supercharger you'll notice CHAdeMO is listed at 136 mph charging speed. So likely it's in the works and if I remember right the Tesla rep I talked to estimated that probably this year we'll see the adaptor (was interested if before or after my delivery in January and they said likely this year).

mario.kadastik | 1 septembre 2013

Argh, make that 136 / 30 minutes :)

Kleist | 1 septembre 2013

@mario - thanks, that is a strong hint. I guess it will appear on Teslas engineering to do list when they design the RHD models in 2014.

mario.kadastik | 2 septembre 2013

Here's the video: http://vimeo.com/61324652 the question on CHAdeMO is quite close to the end.

pebell | 2 septembre 2013

I too am kind of holding my breath for a CHAdeMO adapter in Europe. Sure, Japan is staggering with >1700 CHAdeMO chargers, but in Europe there are also over 800 stations in place, mostly in Western Europe, and I think it will be many years before Tesla has any kind of comparable coverage with their SC network here.

Please, Santa Elon!! :)

nickjhowe | 2 septembre 2013

Thanks @Mario. I was wrong. Appreciate the update.

redacted | 2 septembre 2013

@ mario.kadastik clarification - 136 KM/30min, not Mi/30 min.

Brian H | 3 septembre 2013

mario;
listened to the whole thing (again). No mention of CHAdeMO.

mario.kadastik | 3 septembre 2013

Ah, sorry it wasn't at the end. It's from 20:20 .. 21:30 in the video.

Brian H | 4 septembre 2013

Found it. "The official Tesla Motors answer" is "Yes".

Vimeo is a lousy player, very slow and balky. Pushes my old P4 to the limits.

AmpedRealtor | 4 septembre 2013

European Model S vehicles come with a different charge port, so CHAdeMO adapter in Europe doesn't mean there will be one in the US.

soma | 6 octobre 2013

So... I guess this question got answered. And not the way I had hoped.

GaryREM.va.us | 6 octobre 2013

@soma
"So... I guess this question got answered. And not the way I had hoped."

What does that mean?

You saw the adapter in the Tesla store?

CHAdeMO adapter

ir | 6 octobre 2013

@GaryREM: The OP like many others was expecting a simple $75-$150 adapter like the J1772 or 14-50 UMC adapter with zero internal modifications to the car itself (eg. activating Super Charger).

Like the $650 Roadster adapter, it is more of a PR move to straighten the record and appease the pundits ("I want to use CHAdeMO!" or "Why can't I plug my Tesla S into a Tesla Roadster charger!"). Now Tesla can say: YES!

In the end, you can buy lots of charges for $1000 (30,000 miles @ $0.10 per kWh, 3 miles per kWh). So it makes no sense for most owners unless they need the convenience.

soma | 6 octobre 2013

I was hoping that if the charging adapter costed >$650, that we would not be made to pay for the cost of Superchargers as well. $600-700 is on the edge of reason, to have the car meet a growing standard. $2500-3000 for someone who does not have the Superchargers enabled is asking too much.

RanjitC | 6 octobre 2013

I was under the impression that the SC option was hardware and soft ware as you need to physically bypass the AC to DC convertors with fatter cables to allow high currents and software to control those currents as well. I doubt very much that all the cars have this configuration in place if you did not pay for it.

RanjitC | 6 octobre 2013

I stand corrected I just saw the ad for the CHAdemo adapter all cars have the hardware.

GaryREM.va.us | 6 octobre 2013

@lr

I think if those were expectations, then they were wishful thinking. The J1772 adapter is fairly easy because it is 240v AC and has fairly simple signaling.

The CHAdeMO is far more complex using CAN communications and several control signals. But, more importantly, it bypasses the chargers because it uses DC and therefore, it takes advantage of the SuperCharger DC connections. I assume to the car, it looks like you are plugged into a SuperCharger so it may require no any hardware or software on the car. Of course, if that is the case, you could use the SuperChargers which is why they are charging extra for cars which are not SuperCharger enabled. This is just an assumption, but seems reasonable.

Whether the $1000 for the adapter makes sense I can't say. It's not just a plug because it includes the electronics to implement the CHAdeMO control signals and communications.

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