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People are getting nervous here

People are getting nervous here

Hi all, a short update from Swiitzerland.

First things first: I love my Signature Performance Plus VIN14264, would never go back to ICE and have sold at least 2 Model S since taking delivery on August 20th. More are awaiting 4x4 Teslas.

However, we start to feel neglected over here and since our national Tesla officials often have less information than this forum, I want to note a few thougts before they show up in the news allover Europe. Perhaps someone at Fremont is listening in at some point.

Firstly, we are expecting the first snow anytime now. There are no winter wheels here yet. If this is not resolved by Tesla immediately, it could result in a grounding of our Model S fleet. I fear this would be allover the news if no solution would be found quickly.

Then, at the moment I have to refuse the 5.6 update every morning, because after that update the car will only charge at 24A instead of 32A. Nobody here can tell us why this is or if and when it will go away by means of further updates. Since there are no superchargers here and Tesla has delivered a cable/adapter set for Switzerland that is not really useful, I currently only charge at a meaningful rate at home and need the 3 phase 400V 32A.

Then, please, let us change the built in SIM card. We don't know what carrier you use, but It is agonisingly slow. In fact, it is completely useless. I am more than happy to pay for my own data SIM, but I would like to get rid of this really unfortunate setup from Tesla asap.

In general, please commuicate with us. When is the European online store coming, so we can order simple items like rubber mats for the f/trunks? What is happening with superchargers? When will homelink be working? But again, most importantly, where are our winter wheels?

Please Tesla, include us in your coms and start strenghtening your European base.

Thanks and happy Monday!

ian t.wa.us | 20 octobre 2013

Why does Tesla have to provide wheels? Are there no after market wheels that will fit the S in all is Switzerland? Or are these already paid for wheels?

jat | 20 octobre 2013

I don't know the specs on the electrical system there, but in the US a 30A circuit is rated only for intermittent use. A continuous load, such as charging a car for over 3 hours, has to be derated by 25%, so you can only use 24A continuously on that 30A circuit. Otherwise, continuous use of the rated current will build up heat in the wire and breaker, (hopefully) causing the breaker to trip before the insulation on the wire melts.

PapaSmurf | 20 octobre 2013

On the wheel issue, I would just buy a winter wheel type that you know has good quality. That doesn't seem to be Tesla's responsibility. I don't expect Tesla to provide any future wheels besides the 4 that come with the car.

If your phone provides tethering of data, you can share 4G (or whatever you have in Switzerland) with the car via wifi and have the fastest data that your phone allows.

shop | 20 octobre 2013

Jat, please, do some research before commenting on European electrical systems. It is quite different from ours, and putting out info about wires melting when you don't know anything about their setup isn't helpful. Sorry to be so harsh, but these forums have enough incorrect info in them as it is.

Here is one link with info about European charging. http://insideevs.com/charging-a-tesla-model-s-in-europe-wvideo/

RanjitC | 20 octobre 2013

@shop
Jat clearly commented on US circuitry and mentioned that he does not know about European charging!

Roamer@AZ USA | 20 octobre 2013

Sounds liked Tesla should stop deliveries outside their service area until they can catch up. I get the feeling they are putting cars in Europe a year or two to soon.

Seems like many European buyers are not interested in pioneering the new frontier and the problems that go with it.

Roamer@AZ USA | 20 octobre 2013

http://www.tirerack.com/snow/WinterPackageMain.jsp?autoMake=Tesla&autoMo...

Not sure if tire rack ships to Switzerland. Here we just order the tires online.

PapaSmurf | 21 octobre 2013

24 amps doesn't seem like it would be an issue.
That will recharge overnight just fine. Full battery every morning.

jat | 21 octobre 2013

@shop - regardless of where it is located, if you run more current than a wire is rated for, it will overheat. Fuses/breakers are designed to trip before the wire is damaged. What exactly do you think is incorrect about that statement, regardless of the location?

You should be well aware of the fact that the car only uses 80% of the rated circuit capacity because charging is considered a continuous load.

Just like the car currently drops the default current on an HPWC to 60A because it was blowing fuses and Blink chose to limit the charging rate to 16A on some of their chargers so it wouldn't melt the connector, it seems possible that Tesla would choose to reduce the charging rate to 24A because it is tripping breakers at 32A.

Jolinar | 21 octobre 2013

@jat
"You should be well aware of the fact that the car only uses 80% of the rated circuit capacity because charging is considered a continuous load."

That is not true in Europe!! In Europe when circuit is rated for 3*32A than it can handle continuous 3*32A and short time even more!
please read: www.teslamotors.com/en_EU/forum/forums/firmware-56-being-deployed-change...

And if it tripping someones breaker it's someones responsibility to reduce current for that specific location and leave it unchanged for other locations...
We would not update car for 5.6 if we knew that issue sooner :(

Jolinar | 21 octobre 2013

@jat
also I have to say that public charging stations are designed to deliver 3*32A continuously so why Tesla is limiting them too?

RZippel | 21 octobre 2013

This is, if you read the initial statement, not a request that Tesla should get everything right first time trying but to listen and react to the early adopters also in the new countries they now move into.

Especially charging infrastructure is very different, we even have another soket in the MS you know. Limiting the same way as in the US makes no sense, our Type 2 chargers are rated at 3 phase 32A continued load for all of the EU. In Germany you lose insurance coverage not using winter tires and Tesla needs to deliver the car on them else you can't even drive it home.

So please accept there is a world outside US borders, Tesla decided to sell cars there, we early buyers are willing to coach Tesla and not just execute our rights as customers in civil law countries. So just listen and react.

chrisdl | 21 octobre 2013

32A cabling has to be 6 sqmm copper. Any thinner cable could overheat.
In Europe, it's not allowed to use anything less than 6 sqmm for 32A. Hence, there's no chance that the cable overheats at all, even when it transports 32A day and night for a century :)

Some places in the US appear to use 4 sqmm cables, which are only rated for 25A. Those cables can only transport 32A without risk for a short time.

Perhaps Tesla got wind of this and lowered the maximum charge current, just in case.
For Europe this is ridiculous, whichever way you look at it.

lolachampcar | 21 octobre 2013

WRT winter tires and wheels, some European countries are very strict about ANY changes to tires or wheels without out (TUV?) certification or the manufacturer's blessing. I'm just guessing this is the root of the tire/wheel concern.

robert | 21 octobre 2013

Well, (groan) I am just installing - finally - the 5.6, after the Ranger today repaired my 12-V Battery, which was defunct from the first time I set foot in the car.
So now I can only use 24 Amps in my 32-Amps socket I installed for the car's sake??? WHY???

Regarding Winter tires, I am changing mine the day after tomorrow, which is high time (-2 C today morning) in Stockholm.
I am putting these tires on the original rims, since Tesla still cannot remember more than 4 x TPMS. By the time I have to change back, Tesla will remember 8 TPMS:s or make it possible to programme them at home. It is Nokian 8 Hakkapelliitta, same size as the Summer tires: P245/45R19 with lots of studs (also available without studs). Tesla shops sell Pirelli Winter tires in the same size. What is the problem???

Robert

Carefree | 21 octobre 2013

Who is in charge of Tesla Europe? There has to be a contact somewhere?

And I agree, Europe is a very different place with much stricter laws and rules than the US. Tesla needs to get on top of this quickly.

pebell | 21 octobre 2013

@patrick.meier: In the Netherlands, Tesla is pretty straightforward about the 13A/16A and 24A/32A issue that was introduced with 5.6: the limitation of the max charge amperage will be gone in the next upgrade. They are less outspoken about when this update will come - but for sure before the end of the year.

I installed 5.6 before this issue was well known, but even though I only have a single charger I have yet to experience any inconvenience about being able to only charge at 3x13A. It still charges 40km/h, so my car is still full every single morning.

J.T. | 21 octobre 2013

@ pebell

They are less outspoken about when this update will come - but for sure before the end of the year.

Tesla has turned "soon" into a four letter word.

pebell | 21 octobre 2013

@jtodtman: I guess we have all become world experts in "holding our breath" :)

Jolinar | 21 octobre 2013

just a little correction: it's 26A, not 24A... But still it's annoying on longer trips without CHAdeMO or SuperCharger.

PS: I think Tesla is doing what they can, but next time we will wait a bit before updating software... just in case...

Totto | 21 octobre 2013

Tesla is not able to deliver winter wheels in Norway either. The problem is that many of us have already paid for the winter wheels from Tesla, and they won't even tell us if we can cancel those. They need to sort out this very quickly.

Kleist | 21 octobre 2013

Sounds like Tesla needs the Europaen version of Jerome.

RZippel | 21 octobre 2013

Well, they will find out that in Germany with civil law clauses superseding the contract with Tesla, if they sold 22kW dual chargers and deliver 18kW then there is a product defect they are obliged to fix or the price will be reduced or the car returned, etc. You can't supersede the BGB with a contract in those areas.

The issue seems to be making this setting part of the localization, etc. I suggest to default all links to 80% max. capacity with the option to overrule the default in countries where the limit makes no sense. If users have to confirm in that case that they override the default and need to have verified that the outlet / infrastructure is capable of the full charge amps that should also not be a liability issue for TM. It seems so easy, but do it now before everyone makes fun of TM in Europe!

Basjames | 21 octobre 2013

I can understand your predicament over the winter tires. When I purchased my model s June 2013 p10353, the winter wheels were $2400.00 a set. I'm getting ready to install them shortly [Toronto Canada] and guess what they are now $4500.00 from Tesla, but I can't get them anyhow, they are out of stock and may be in mid November. I am bitterly disappointed with Tesla now.....I was so happy with them earlier and the car.....well I don't need to tell you about that, just superb. I am personally not going to accept this outrageous price change with out a fight, I just won't allow some marketing poeple to destroy the immense goodwill that many good people from Tesla are responsible for and that many owners enjoy. My advise to you would be to get tires from other vendors, they will most certainly be less $. or join me in my battle. Funny about the update, my model s is still working on version 4.5. but then here in Canada we expect this. Best of luck

Bighorn | 21 octobre 2013

@Basjames
I was disappointed by Tesla raising the price of snow tires as well as the lack of availability. I found a winter package at TireRack for less than the $2400. Can't really think of another car company that provided me my winter tires, so I don't think we can expect too much from TM when they are at the will of their suppliers. Almost everybody is still on v4.5, so it's not unique to the hinterlands.

carolinagobo | 21 octobre 2013

There are winter 21" tires for sale in US, in fact made in Europe

http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/21-winter-tires-available

Geert.Snijders | 21 octobre 2013

@JamesM: while not one of the 'whiners', just maybe one might expect a vendor of a 100K car to DELIVER what was actually sold and paid in full.
Common sense? I would say yes. But maybe not common enough for you...

Fred O | 21 octobre 2013

@JamesM you obviously have not been paying much attention to what the OP and some others wrote. In certain countries you HAVE to have winter tires when driving in winter conditions. Maybe OP already ordered and paid for them. Tesla is not delivering in time. Are you suggesting people should 'just' order an extra set of tires elsewhere? Or take the risk of an accident or fines? Or use a different car for the time being? You are being silly here.

RZippel | 21 octobre 2013

@JamesM: Flagged inappropriate because I don't really think I need to be called silly by you.

Especially when you don't know what you talk about.

1) You can't, in Germany even using a tire needs to be approved for the very model of the car. So there is a significant effort involved, some cars don't get any approved for some time. Even had that with a Lexus model I drove. And you are not allowed to drive without in the winter months without loosing insurance. Storing of tires in garages in many cases are a violation or fire safety rules costing you your insurance coverage. And houses / garages are less common than condos because we build reals houses and not cheap stuff thrown over by every little higher wind (sorry but that is how it is, I lived in the US for 2 years)... with the downside that much less people can afford a house with a garage, even if they can afford a MS.
2) Why? The car can charge at 22 kW, it is a software bug or better, one size fits all solution because of a lack of localization. All that was asked for in the original post is for it to get fixed. I think that is reasonable and not, how you want to make it sound, like blasphemy.

Without pressure, Tesla will direct effort elsewhere, please remember they have a supply-, not demand-generation problem. Rightful Roadster owner complaints never fulfilled prove that this risk is real.

Your comment to me, no need to sue, but I don't think from reading your post that the effort explaining you the way our civil law works in customer protection is worthwhile.

In short: If I am not able to drive a car, or can't implement the use case planned for it because it doesn't charge at the promised rate for no good reason that Tesla being late in localizing the cars, is that my fault or Tesla's moving to a complex market that produces the best cars on the planet maybe to early?

You need to give me the right to be a customer, not a religious believer in Tesla. I don't mind your approach to following Tesla and don't call you silly for it, I expect the same from you if that should be a worthwhile exchange of opinions and ideas.

church70 | 21 octobre 2013

I just some winter tires MICHELIN X-ICE XI3 245/40R19XL

$1280 all in Toronto Canada

church70 | 21 octobre 2013

got : )

AmpedRealtor | 21 octobre 2013

@ JamesM and others... Europeans have different expectations and a very high bar for quality. A typical Model S buyer in the US is not the typical buyer in Europe. Keep that in mind.

WayneH | 21 octobre 2013

@JamesM
Your arrogance and lack of respect for European Tesla owners who have important concerns is not appreciated.

AmpedRealtor | 21 octobre 2013

@ JamesM - I am assuming that you do not live in Europe and have no way of understanding their laws or expectations. You are speaking from a very unique, US-centric point of view that is not necessarily applicable to other regions. You must divest yourself of the belief that what may be "good enough" for you on this continent may be totally unacceptable to others on another continent. EU has very strict consumer protection laws which would rip Tesla apart over the issues we, as early adopters, experienced here. I don't see much love for Tesla in Europe when it comes to forgiving "early adopter" woes. There is no excuse for Tesla to sell in Europe if it is unprepared to do so.

I am in full agreement with patrick.meier, RZippel and others. Tesla made a conscious choice to expand into new markets. It should not have done so if it was not ready. I would expect the car to charge as promised upon delivery, not be expected to wait for some future software update to provide me with the functionality I paid for today.

Tesla no longer needs apologists, it needs competent management.

WayneH | 21 octobre 2013

@AmpedRealtor
Well said.

I think Tesla should focus on US sales, find out and correct all the glitches, and then expand into other countries. Growing and expanding too fast can backfire.

PapaSmurf | 21 octobre 2013

@WayneH,

It is not arrogance. It is more like not really taking the complaints of teenager seriously. RZippel and the others are making a mountain out of relatively minor issues. This is just my opinion. There is no need for you guys to flip out merely because I have a different opinion.

RZippel | 21 octobre 2013

Not even JamesM can spoil my day (evening here) tonight, Tesla confirmed delivery of my MS P85+ in brown/tan/abachi matt for December today and I am looking forward to whine about my own issues with it soon ;-) And with a little luck my 3 phase 32A Type 2 charge connector installed for the car in my garage by then will be utilized. No space for storing a set of tires there though...

PapaSmurf | 21 octobre 2013

@RZippel,
If you don't like the tires that are on the car when it arrives, just refuse to accept delivery until they put winter tires on there. If you signed up for winter tires, let the car stay with Tesla Motors until they swap the tires.

WayneH | 21 octobre 2013

@JamesM
As AmpedRealtor said, we are assuming you do not live in Europe... and have no experiential basis for understanding their concerns.

You have a right to have your opinion, but I see no reason why it is not possible for you to voice it in a more empathic and respectful manner.

RZippel | 21 octobre 2013

...wow, that was the longest I was fooled by a troll since a while JamesM, but "It is not arrogance. It is more like not really taking the complaints of teenager seriously." was too much, gave you away ;-)

Don't feed the troll...

RZippel | 21 octobre 2013

Just one more bite for the Troll, JamesM you did not get that I don't have a choice. In December, if Tesla doesn't deliver on winter tires I need to exactly do what you say, because I can't drive away with the car. Did any of the posters get that information through to you? Not allowed, by law, Straßenverkehrsordnung. Loosing insurance. Fines. Should I have it flatbedded to my home to admire it in the garage? Of course it will need to stay with Tesla... Not by my whining but a local law...

Guten Appetit!

AmpedRealtor | 21 octobre 2013

@ JamesM - Despite how difficult it may be for you to accept, this thread is not about you or your opinion. You've stated your opinion, now can you please get out of the way so the discussion can continue beyond your unwanted commentary? I'll be blunt. Nobody cares for your opinion here because you've shown yourself to be abusive and degrading towards others.

I am flagging your comments, suggest others do the same. You are bordering on flame bait here, suggest you move on.

Al1 | 21 octobre 2013

"I think Tesla should focus on US sales, find out and correct all the glitches, and then expand into other countries. Growing and expanding too fast can backfire".

I agree. I do believe Tesla needs to slow down a little bit. There is no point in having 2 months' waiting list in the key US market and get bogged down in winter tire issues in small, non strategic markets. They should outright stop receiving new orders untill these issues are fixed.

There will be no voids. Resellers / speculators will fill in the gap with no risk of backfire for Tesla.

church70 | 21 octobre 2013

wow lol

diegoPasadena | 21 octobre 2013

Boys, boys! Don't get worked up at each other! As AmpedRealtor said, much of this is cultural difference between what we're willing to accept as early adopters here in the US vs the precision of contract performance that is expected in Europe. This could include our willingness to accept temporary decreased charging performance - knowing that in the grand scale of things it won't matter when it finally is restored to full performance. But, cultural differences aside, I think deep down, even the European owners, once they have driven the car for a mile, would rather have it with temporarily reduced capacity than not having it.

Winter tires is something else: We'd squeal just as loudly, if we couldn't drive our brand new car. Come to think of it, I'd squeal just as loudly, if I couldn't drive my 9 month old Model S - not because I didn't get what I paid for, but because I'd have to go back to an ICE. Perish the thought!

Let's hope Tesla resolves the winter tire issue for our European bretheren. I have confidence they will.

And then, Patrick, I expect videos of your Model S doing the Tremola!

shop | 21 octobre 2013

From what I've seen on these forums, Tesla jumps on problems like these quickly. Thanks to the OP for bringing them up, I'm hopeful that Tesla Europe is as proactive as they have been in the US.

jjs | 21 octobre 2013

Well, I for one am a bit confused. Telsa has been in Europe for some time. Don't they have years of experience in selling the Roadster? I understand that it was a custom, hand built, low volume car, but shouldn't have a handle of these type of issues, concerns and legal nuances?

Al1 | 22 octobre 2013

Should have. Yet looks like customers in Norway and elsewhere won't have their winter tires ready and the car expected in summer will be finally delivered ... in winter. But with summer tires.

Al1 | 22 octobre 2013

Which means they've still hit disruption in supply chain either due to poor planning (lack of experience? growth substantially exceeding forecast?) or some sort of unforeseen event.

mario.kadastik | 22 octobre 2013

Well Elon has said they have issues with 1% suppliers. Maybe winter tires and blue connectors are those 1% suppliers where they were screwed over by the supplier and they need to work around that.

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