Signature Model S for sale, Reservation # below 75

Signature Model S for sale, Reservation # below 75

Hi all,

I have a Model S Signature Performance reservation # below 75, with estimated delivery ~8 weeks from now.

Before the trolls attack, note that I'm a loyal Roadster owner who has spent all day hand-wringing over whether I want to sell Model S I've been looking forward to for almost 2 years. My garage is full, and I would reeeeally love to play with the toy I've been waiting for, but I am going to go with logic over emotion in this case.

It is configured black paint, black leather, piano black trim. MSRP $97,900 + tax.

If Tesla does not allow a transfer pre-sale, you would purchase from me directly in Los Angeles.

If you have a serious interest, please leave me a message with your offer at 310-997-0263, and I'll return your call. (The tax credit may not transfer to you, so please take that into account.) Thanks!

Volker.Berlin | 4 mai 2012

For a general discussion on whether reservations can or should be traded, please cf. these threads:

It's probably more fruitful to continue those threads, than to post your opinion here (again).

ckessel | 4 mai 2012

This is just profiteering, not that I suppose there's anything wrong with that, but I think all these "buy my Model S" should be stripped off the forums. That's what eBay motors and such are for.

petero | 4 mai 2012

Volker.Berlin. I disagree, this is a very different thread. Bay21a is not trying to sell a reservation, he is pre-selling an actual car. I doubt TM will allow Bay21a to “transfer his pre-sold car to a new owner. He is the first of more than a few “S” reservation holders and soon to be owners to test the secondary “S” market.

Two questions:
First, how much over MSRP + sales tax does the seller want?
Second, how much will a willing buyer pay?

I suspect Bay21a will get more generous offers/bids from non-forum “buyers.” When the “S” hits the street and newbies learn they have to wait (probably 2 years) the demand will exceed supply. Especially in the beginning.

ckessel. You may be right about the thread. Bay21a should consider contacting the Los Angeles TM dealership and market the car through them. I see no reason they wouldn’t want to work with him. There are many profiteers among us. The car is one venue, if TSLA stock shot up on May 10th to $75 a share, a few among us would be on the phone instructing our brokers to sell.

Volker.Berlin | 4 mai 2012

petero, we don't disagree. I am not questioning the legitimacy of this thread in its own right. I just wanted readers to stop and think whether they should comment here, or in the existing threads, depending on whether they want to comment on this particular offer, or on the general idea of reselling a reservation (or unused car for that matter). It's an effort to keep the number of double-posts and parallel discussions low.

This offer is going to provoke all kinds of general comments on why you cannot or should not sell your reservation. I'd be happy if it wouldn't start all over again, it's all in the existing threads. That's why I linked to them.

Brian H | 5 mai 2012

One way or t'other, the "secondary market" is going to ramp up now that the orders are being finalized. There's going to be some interesting feedback on the "real" market value of the cars!

Hard to say whether the forum will be the "best" place to get the "best" price. The new new buyers may well bid prices up.

Volker.Berlin | 5 mai 2012
DallasTXModelS | 5 mai 2012

Why is everyting on this forum so vague? Why say under #75? What is it #74? If it was much lower you'd say the lower number. Why not say the actual number? If you're trying to keep it from Tesla they have your exact name and contact information matched to your screenname. Did Tesla give you an estimated delivery date or did they say about 8 weeks? 8 weeks from your post is 29JUN2012. If the fist car is to be delivered on 15JUL2012 you must have really swung some great deal to get 70 something reservation car delivered 2 weeks before Reservation #1. The tax credit is not transferable. The person accepting delivery has to be the one that files for the credit.

CraigT | 5 mai 2012

The early registration holders (I am S#17) put up money years ago. Lives change, not to mention the fact that the price tag has risen quite a bit. I don't think that too many people who bought their reservation 3 or more years ago were thinking about trying to profit off of it later.

If people want to privately sell their reservations that is fine with me and in my opinion works out better for everyone. The last thing Tesla wants to have to disclose is that 10% (or whatever the number is) of their reservation holders bailed. Buying and reselling the car privately doesn't make any sense either since the taxes will get paid twice.

Every luxury car manufacturer has had this issues from time to time and the exchanging of paid reservations has never been a problem.

DallasTXModelS | 5 mai 2012

Section 30D originally was enacted in the Energy Improvement and Extension Act of 2008. The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 amended section 30D effective for vehicles acquired after December 31, 2009. The vehicle must be acquired for use or lease and not for resale. Additionally, the original use of the vehicle must commence with the taxpayer and the vehicle must be used predominantly in the United States. For purposes of the 30D credit, a vehicle is not considered acquired prior to the time when title to the vehicle passes to the taxpayer under state law.

Tiebreaker | 5 mai 2012

The tax credit is not transferable, but the savings are, i.e. dropping the asking price by $7,500. The marketplace will decide.

brianman | 5 mai 2012

"The vehicle must be acquired for use or lease and not for resale."
Sounds like neither party gets the rebate.

EdG | 5 mai 2012

If the second buyer is the original user of the car, then it seems the rebate is applicable. At least this part of the law doesn't say the car has to be purchased directly from the manufacturer or some licensed entity.

jerry3 | 5 mai 2012

You might have to pay more than $7500 in tax attorney fees to get it though.

Brian H | 6 mai 2012

Interesting; that would mean the T-registered buyer wouldn't be able to apply for the rebate, but his buyer would.

OTOH another scenario:
Buyer 1 acquires, uses for a month, resells to buyer 2. Both apply for rebates.

Tiebreaker | 6 mai 2012

Looks like: Whoever gets the title first, also gets the rebate.

DallasTXModelS | 6 mai 2012

It says the first owner whose name is on the title is intitled to the tax credit. The dealer or manufacturer is not titled as the owner. If the original reservation holder accepts the car, his name will be on the title and he is the only one that can get the tax credit. It also says that each car can only get one tax credit, you can't get the credit and sell the car a month later and the second owner apply for another tax credit.

DallasTXModelS | 6 mai 2012

I would be more worried about the statement on the Tesla website on the Model S FACTS under Pricing. The last sentence makes me wonder who can and can't qualify for the tax credit.

From Tesla Model S FACTS/Pricing:

■To qualify for the US Federal Tax Credit, the new vehicle must be purchased by the taxpayer, and not purchased for resale. The credit is applied when the taxpayer completes their annual tax forms. Qualification is contingent on Adjusted Gross Income.

I asked my Tesla Rep to explain this and she said she didn't want to be misquoted on this and that I should ask my CPA.

Crow | 6 mai 2012

It means that if a reservation holder takes delivery (title) with the intent to resell, neither party gets the credit. I believe that would be the IRS interpretation. Qualification isn't dependent upon AGI. I don't know where they're getting that.

DallasTXModelS | 6 mai 2012

That's why I was on I can't find anything about AGI to qualify either. There is a bunch of things Tesla is required to do to even make the Model S qualify ie. quarterly reports... I can only hope they do all the are required to do.

EdG | 6 mai 2012

The only reason for the Income restriction is to say that they're not going to give a check of $7500 to someone who pays no taxes. It's a tax credit, so if you're otherwise paying more than $7500 in taxes, you may be eligible. Otherwise, no.

DallasTXModelS | 6 mai 2012

6. It is important to note the tax credit will not, under any circumstances, exceed your tax liability. This means you can’t use the credit to generate a tax refund. In other words, if after preparing your taxes, you find you owe the government $7,500, and you bought a suitably qualifying vehicle in 2011, you’re in luck; your tax bill will be reduced to zero.

However, if you owe say, $2,500, that $2,500 will be the total amount of your tax credit and your tax bill will be reduced to zero. The government isn’t going to then turn around and refund you the other $5,000. Similarly, if you owe no taxes at all, you won’t get the electric car tax credit, nor will you be permitted to roll it, (or as in the scenario above, the $5,000 “balance”) into your potential 2012 tax liability.

However, if you’re a person who typically qualifies for a refund, there is a nice little loophole you could slip through. You could still technically take advantage of the $7,500 credit by leasing a fully qualifying electric or plug-in hybrid vehicle instead of buying it. Remember, most leasing companies automatically apply the credit toward the capital reduction payment required to establish the lease. This strategy enables you to get the benefit of the electric car tax credit, regardless of your potential tax liability.

BruceR | 6 mai 2012

Please don't get your tax advice from an online auto magazine. (Or a forum post ;-))))))
A credit is not the same as a deduction. Credit is treated nearly the same as money you paid to the government durring the year. There are limitations and differences that may apply, but a quick check of my 2011 return with Turbotax showed the refund going from 500 to 8000 if I had filed out form 8936. Everyone's situation is different, so check with a REAL tax advisor if you are not sure.

Crow | 6 mai 2012

Not a very clear example. People alway get confused between tax liability and the amount they owe. The credit is limited by the amount of tax liability, not the amount due. Using it can result in a refund but only of amounts withheld or previously paid in. Example:

Tax liability 25,000
Credit -7,500
W/H & pymts -20,000

Refund 2,500

Tax liability 6,000
Credit - 6,000
W/H & pymts -7,000

Refund. 7,000

EdG | 7 mai 2012

People often confuse the amount the gov't wants for the year with the amount of difference they owe or get back (refund) after calculating their taxes.

On form 1040, look at your Total Tax (line 61). If without an EV purchase it's more than $7500, you qualify.

I would find it surprising if there are any US reservation holders who don't qualify for the full refund. (Unless they are so good at reducing their taxes that they don't need this explanation!)

petero | 7 mai 2012

Gentlemen, stop with the accounting debate -The rebates were never on the table. I am sure there are existing threads for this specific subject.

Mr. bay2la asked if you are interested in buying his “S,” how much would/can you offer. I believe the bidding starts at $105,976.75 (97,900 + CA sales tax using the Los Angeles County rate of 8.25%).

Having been in the car sales/resale business my guess is Mr. bay21a is looking for $130K +sales tax and fees to be paid by the new buyer. In my opinion, if you have an early # and your "S" is delivered say by January 2013 (perhaps later) there will be a greedy opportunity to re-market your "S." When the public really sees and understands the "S" demand will explode and michiganmodels will really need to put in the overtime.

How do you like those apples?