2013 MS vs Audi S8 Mile High 0-60 Mashup Review (video)

2013 MS vs Audi S8 Mile High 0-60 Mashup Review (video)

The Fast Lane Car did a mashup review between a MS P and an Audi S8 a mile above sea level:

Brian H | 23 juillet 2013

Where did he say it was a P? Looked like a standard 85 to me. A P85 should have been down around 4.2.

negarholger | 23 juillet 2013

I was wondering the same... how did these guys make a P that slow?

NomoDinos | 23 juillet 2013

I couldn't see the badge, but I think that might be the red piping from the performance black interior.

pebell | 23 juillet 2013

Approaching it from the other side - has anyone ever seen this kind of acceleration on a S85? As a S85 reservation holder I would be thrilled, but I doubt it :)

tobi_ger | 23 juillet 2013

The "Performance" wasn't directly stated, I did deduce that from the "top of the line" text and pricing within the video.
I'm sorry, if I was mistaken, wouldn't want to mislead anyone.

JonathanL | 23 juillet 2013

The badging on the back is somewhat visible when he does the second run and it looks to be a standard 85.

chrisdl | 23 juillet 2013

He says it's the 443 lb-ft torque engine (0:17), hence P85.
Also, it is the P85 interior, as NoMoDinos said (visible at 3:41).

JonathanL | 23 juillet 2013

Everything he says matches a P85, except for the time.

bigez1 | 23 juillet 2013

@chrisdl @NoMoDinos

Not trying to make a case for the Model S vs the Audi but it is curious as to why FLC couldn't get better times out of a "P". FLC times simply don't compute given the slowest time measured (that I could find) is 4.4 0 to 60. Clearly this is a non-performance Model S – Signature and not a "P". That explains the the seats, the interior, and the pricing ($107,000 almost the exact price for the legacy non-performance Signature). Perhaps I'm wrong - if so, please let me know.

tobi_ger | 23 juillet 2013

Isn't the dash the carbon fiber and thus P?

Docrob | 23 juillet 2013

Yes, if he had a P85 spec sheet to read off but a standard vehicle then everything he said would match the P85 and the time would match a standard. I think they may have cocked up here.

tobi_ger | 23 juillet 2013

Maybe it's the street... at one attempt during start, you can hear some pebbles/granulate(?) hitting the wheel well iirc. They should have done that testing on a clean, asphalted road.

Winnie796 | 23 juillet 2013

Perhaps the test road was on an incline of some sorts?

chrisdl | 23 juillet 2013

Well, at 4:13 you can just make out the P85 logo (set the video to 1080p):
Compare with this, for example:

That together with the interior (carbon + black seats with red lining) and the fact that he actually says which engine it is should convince most people.

That said, the car doesn't have to win to be a winner.

Blizz | 23 juillet 2013

Don't forget the Audi is AWD. And I also think the road is not very good. It looks pretty rough.

chrisdl | 23 juillet 2013

And in addition, he likely had traction control ON. Dragtimes got their best time with traction control off. Still, 4.7 is quite slow for a P85.

eddiemoy | 23 juillet 2013

They had a serious issue getting a test car from Tesla. Their calls were never returned. I tweeted to Elon why they didn't get a car to test and thought it would be perfect test at high altitude show superior advantage of electric over ICE. But after watching the video, I wish I had not. How can these idiots get such shitty times????

The only thing that I can think of is that they are trying to make Tesla pay for not returning their calls. I don't think they will ever get a test car again. The term Broder comes to mind. I'm so pissed!

chrisdl | 23 juillet 2013

Oww... Conspiracy theory! Yes!

SamO | 23 juillet 2013

Their times got better with each successive run.

I think they should have tested the MS until it stopped getting a better time.

Gluaisrothai | 23 juillet 2013

Turbocharged cars suffer significantly less performance degradation with altitude vs non-forced aspirated vehicles. That's why piston aircraft benefit from turbo-normalization with full power available to a certain altitude.

If they tried this with any normally aspirated car the results would have been significantly different.

The calculation is simple. At SL, 30" of air pressure is available; at 1 mile high approx. 24". The power reduction factor is 24/30=0.8.

JonathanL | 23 juillet 2013

Given that this appears to be a P85, it could be that his test equipment is wrong in absolute terms for both cars, but the relative performance is correct and the Audi is a few 10ths quicker than the MS.

info | 23 juillet 2013

The P-85 doesn't have to be the fastest car on the planet for Tesla to be a winner. It looked like a P to me but I, too, am surprised by the time. I think I might have an explanation that asks more questions than it answers.

I have had the opportunity to have two loaner P-85's while my regular S is in service. The first one I had was ridiculously fast. The one I have today isn't. It's faster than my S but not nearly as much as the first one. My theory is, like most things, there are variations. This video may simply have gotten a "slow" P. I'm not sure where we got the benchmark of 60, but I'm betting there's not a car faster to 40.

I'm not a fan of the "everyone wins a trophy" school of life, but there are times when simply competing IS a win. They took the best performance model of a great performance company and matched it against the Tesla. Tesla was in the ballpark. Good enough.

Brian H | 23 juillet 2013

I wonder what the state of charge was.

chrisdl | 23 juillet 2013

@Brian Range was 179 miles.

hsadler | 23 juillet 2013

Curious about the measurement process.
Does time start when peddle is pressed or when car responds and moves?

Plus, I believe the Audi was revved before releasing the clutch.

SamO | 23 juillet 2013

He uses a rolling start with the Audi (you can see it on the film).

Model S doesn't work that way unless you gently goose the gas while holding the break (see regen).

SamO | 23 juillet 2013


chrisdl | 23 juillet 2013

On paper, the S8 is 0.3 seconds faster than the P85 (3.9s vs 4.2s).
In their test, the S8 was... wait for it... 0.3 seconds faster than the P85!

I'm not sure what all the fuzz is about. If you want the fastest sedan, don't buy a Tesla.
However, in real life situations, the P85's speed is likely more enjoyable because the car is fast so "effortlessly", if you know what I mean.

Brian H | 23 juillet 2013

With a rolling start, the P also gets 3.9 (Edmunds).

mdemetri | 23 juillet 2013

Watching the video, I found it strange that for both the S8 and MS, the times kept improving over the three trials. This suggests to me that the road was not flat and depending on where he started he would get better or worse times. If true than this was not really a fair comparison as the cars could have been starting at different inclines/declines. They should have had a single official starting point and ran all three trials starting from the same point. Only then could we be sure that they were comparing apples to apples.

lolachampcar | 23 juillet 2013

those results do not look anything like the last time I ran into an S8 but then that was at sea level and there was no engine rev'ing before the light turned green :)

hsadler | 23 juillet 2013

You really can't compare electric and ICE vehicles in 0 to 60 fairly using the conventional method. ICE vehicles are revved and clutched - which is a slight advantage.
A fair test would be to lift both vehicles (drive wheels) off the ground - start wheels rolling to the same rotational rate - drop vehicles to run. Dropping would be controlled by computer when rotate rate the same. Both drivers accelerate when they drop.

jinglehyme | 23 juillet 2013

The Audi uses gas. Lots of it.

chrisdl | 23 juillet 2013

@hsadler Why is an ICE being revved and clutched an advantage?

Even if you rev an ICE to maximum torque, the revs drop once you let go of the clutch.
An EV, on the other hand, always has maximum torque from standstill (characteristic of an electric motor)

If you would drop a vehicle with rotating wheels, the ICE would be in the advantage because only then would it be launched at optimal torque. (Trying not to smile while thinking of dropping cars on the ground to do an acceleration test. Reminds me the toys I had when I was little.)

Anyway: Considering all that, EVs have a clear advantage on 0-60 run, which is also why the MS does so well compared to its relative high weight and low power.

LionPowered | 23 juillet 2013

I know that road! I'll have to go drive it when my S85 arrives in August; not to time 0-60, but because it's a nice area. Lyons is nice and on the way to Rocky Mountain National Park. Trail Ridge road in a MS is going to be fun.

lph | 23 juillet 2013

Why does everyone do the 0-60?. It is not a real world measurement in driving unless you are into racing. A 5-60 is much better and simulates a common situation where one needs to change lanes from one that is crawling to another that is moving at the speed limit, a common situation around where I live, and an important
Safety issue. It just so happens that this is where the MS blows away the competition and most likely give the A8 a run for its money too. Also 45-65 is a good one. The point is that IMHO it is the acceleration once moving that is important and is a true measurement of real world performance.

chrisdl | 23 juillet 2013

@lph The S8 is very likely EVEN faster in 5-60 than an MS. See my previous post (or watch a few Tesla drag races on Youtube).

EVs are the fastest at launch. The MS will launch away faster than any car but gradually loose advantage when the speed becomes higher (but only due to the lower power of the engine and a few other constraints). Cutting off the fastest part of the acceleration is not going to improve matters for our trusty Tesla.

hsadler | 23 juillet 2013

'Why is an ICE being revved and clutched an advantage? '

I think that there is no comparison due to the instant response upon touching the accelerator.

An interesting twist would be the old Grand Prix start - where the drivers are standing across the road and when they get the signal, run over to the car, jump in, start it then drive off.
I suspect the EV would win almost every time. So comparison would be futile.

These 0-60 runs with throttle raised and then clutched are not an equal test.

stimeygee | 23 juillet 2013

It's slower than expected because of the lower state of charge, right? I know I've read elsewhere that the SOC significantly affects the performance, and that 179
is about 2/3 of the max range.

chrisdl | 24 juillet 2013

@hsadler I'm sorry, I seem to have a bad day expressing myself clearly.

Maybe this will explain it better than I can:

I know it may sound counter-intuitive to what we're used to after years of IC engines, but that's just how it is. It's physics, it's not something I invented!

Even a revved gas engine is going to launch slower than an electric engine.
Electric: max torque at 0 speed.
Gas: max torque at a narrow rev-range, which is where a driver (or automatic gearbox) must try to keep it during launch (hence the required revving).

That's why I've called the speed of a Model S "effortlessly" before.

Timo | 24 juillet 2013

@chrisdl, the real advantage of EV over ICE comes from speeds when EV had not yet hit the diminishing returns torque speed and ICE have had to change gears at least once. 5-60 S might be faster because it can do most of that in first gear, but I bet it loses in real life situation 40-75 where you start accelerating in third gear and MS is still at it's best torque range.

MS passing acceleration is nearly unrivaled in it's price range.

chrisdl | 24 juillet 2013

@Timo It's difficult to find good sources, but apparently the P85 is just as fast as a Panamera Turbo in 50-75 (2.6 seconds), which is truly impressive. I didn't expect anything less.
I agree that 50-75 is a more important number than 0-60... However, this thread is about 0-60. That I can't help.