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Supercharger Access cost for 60kWh battery and other Options & Specs questions

Supercharger Access cost for 60kWh battery and other Options & Specs questions

Trying to get a very accurate comparison of the 60kWh, 85kWh & 85kWh Performance options as it is getting close to making an order and signing a contract. The Options & Specs page though very informative has left me with many questions. Questions that without the answers I will not be able to order my Model S.

Can TESLA come up with the cost for Supercharger Access for the 60kWh battery now and go ahead and post this cost to the Options & Specs page. TBD could almost be anything and way too much of a variable to just not care what the final cost will be? If the cost for Supercharger Access is cost prohibitive, why put out the extra cost for the Twin chargers and High Power Wall Connector?

What is the difference between the regular drive inverter and the high performance drive inverter included in the Performance Model S? Are the High Performance Tires and 21" wheels just for looks without the high performance drive inverter? If Supercharger Access is included with the Performance model shouldn't the Twin chargers come standard on the Performance model? I've compared the 85kWh battery model with the 85kWh battery Performance model and can easily come up with $6,500 worth of upgrades but am having a hard time justifying the additional $8,500 cost between the two models. Is there really $8,500 cost tied to the high performance drive inverter?

Also, is there a destination charge for making delivery to my home? Is this charge a flat fee charged to everyone, or is it based on the actual milage to deliver from the factory to my home?

A quick response by TESLA on these questions would be appreciated.

US P #8046

Discoducky | 15 avril 2012

I'd send that to your Customer Advocate, that is what they are there for.

We are all waiting on the 60kWh cost for Super Charger access as well as locations.

The rest of your questions we have answers/discussions for in dedicated threads; it might be best for you to look here though: www.teslamotorsclub.com

IMHO, this forum is best for asking questions to confirmed reservation holders by using the "private" post feature.

stephen.kamichik | 15 avril 2012

Send your questions to ssmith@teslamotors.com

DallasTXModelS | 15 avril 2012

I sent these first to my Product Specialist Thursday and didn't hear back.

cybercop | 15 avril 2012

Is it just me or is it optimistic to think you are close to having to order with P8046.

DallasTXModelS | 15 avril 2012

@Discoducky, I'm knew to these forums and the lingo of TESLA, is a Product Specialist the same as a Customer Advocate?

@Stephen.kamichi..., Is SSmith a Customer Advocate?

@cybercop, I may be an optimistic person but since the first 5000 Model S Signature and additional Model S 85kWh cars will begin shipping 3 months from today on July 15 and based on my experience with 5 previous factory ordered vehicles and that TESLA has said that they will skip lower numbered reservations for 40kWh & 60kWh battery vehicles to continue building all of the 85kWh vehicles first and that if I choose an 85kWh model over a 60kWh model based on credible information from TESLA and not from speculations made by people that believe they know more than TESLA I will jump ahead of all of the 60kWh model holdouts my 8064 reservation doesn't seem all that far off. If everyone of the 5000 reservations for 2012 are for 85kWh models and noone between 5001 and 8064 has dropped out that's still only 3064 into the 20,000 planned 2013 vehicles. I know from reading the forums that some of the resevations over 5000 have been given up to upgrade to a Signature reservation changing their number and leaving an unused number below my reservation. I also know from posts that there are many of the lower reservations for 40kWh batteries due to the cost. Since none of this is tracked on the TESLA website where we can see what has actually happened I don't think it is really optimistic at all to be ready to have to make a contract or defer my reservation to a later number if I'm not ready when I get that call.

flar | 15 avril 2012

The superchargers are way higher power than even twin chargers can handle. I believe the twin chargers are for turning AC (commonly available in homes) into the DC that the batteries need so they would be needed to reduce your charge time from 10h/85kWh down to 5h when plugged in at home. But the superchargers can charge that battery up in about an hour and so are probably providing DC directly so they don't need any onboard chargers to do any work for them.

DallasTXModelS | 15 avril 2012

@flar, Sorry, I thought it said the Twin Chargers are required for Supercharging. So now as I read it the 85kWh battery cars come with a supercharger already installed and the 60kWh battery cars may pay a yet to be determined charge for the supercharger to come equiped on the car. I thought they were just going to charge an access fee for the 60kWh battery cars to use the supercharging stations.

Thanks.

stephen.kamichik | 15 avril 2012

SSmith is my customer advocate because he answers all my questions.

ggr | 15 avril 2012

The on-board charger(s) are capable of handling 10kW of AC current (each). The Supercharger delivers up to 90kW DC straight to the electronics module then the battery, not needing to rectify the current or adjust the voltage.

Jason S | 15 avril 2012

1) Supercharger is DC so the number of converters (the on board 10kw chargers) isn't an issue. What is an issue is whether the 60kwh battery pack can handle the Supercharger input since those were designed with the larger battery pack circuitry as the target. AFAIK we still don't have an official answer for that.

2) P8000+ on a 60kwh battery is estimated for delivery in about 11 months by most estimates I've seen. 8 months at the most optimistic estimate. So plenty of time to get the answers.

Brian H | 16 avril 2012

Dallas;
A Supercharger is actually the external supply. Access to it is limited to batteries that can handle the input, as Jason says. There's obviously some hookup difference in the charging port to allow it.

Teoatawki | 16 avril 2012

The supercharger has 10 of the on-board chargers to run DC straight into the battery pack bypassing the charger(s) in your car.

Vawlkus | 16 avril 2012

Tesla hasn't said what the supercharger access will cost because they don't know what it will cost to setup and maintain yet! Until they have that data, noone can predict what it need to cost per use. Or if they can, then I want them to tell me the next winning lottery numbers :P

DanD | 16 avril 2012

Is there a plan for SuperChargers. I'm trying to figure out what options there are for charging my car away from home and keep getting a bunch of math about why Tesla chargers are the only good option and any other other charger (Charge POint) is inferior.

OK. But there aren't any Tesla SuperChargers within 3000 miles of me and not for lack of trying I can't find a plan to have them installed.

Seems a bit crazy that such a necessary thing for a fledging industry would be this uncoordinated.

Jason S | 16 avril 2012

While Tesla came out with the supercharger concept, it seems the big players (Nissan, Toyota, etc) are controlling the standards at this point. Therefore I wouldn't be surprised to see superchargers as an overall subset of the emerging fast charging infrastructure unless and until the Model S or other Tesla vehicles become the market leaders.

So I think we're cutting Tesla some slack by letting them get the car out before the fast charging range extenders. The existing ICE range extender infrastructure is sufficient until the standards completely emerge. This is standard for emerging technology and simply part of the early adopter gamble for the customers.

How long after ICE came out before gas stations existed then had approximately the same fuel? At least we don't need to deal with those headaches. (Typical mid-1920s gasolines were 40 - 60 Octane, for instance. We went away from leaded fuels in 1970s, etc. etc.)

DanD | 16 avril 2012

This isn't 1900 and the world has been through hundreds of new technology discussion since.

The very fact that we recognize this as an issue is proof that smart product strategist could have worked out a set of standards that could evolve and should have been motivated to do so.

Comparing the modern electric car industry of 2012 to an industry that formed when people still rode horses to work and communicated by mail seems a bit backwards.

Telecom manufacturers seem to be able to work out a process whereby they can all make compatible devices. So do TV manufacturers.

How tough could DC Fastcharging possibly have been.

Jason S | 16 avril 2012

Telecom -- where's my SS7 standard?

Tech -- Beta anyone?

Phones -- upgrade every two years please.

Computers -- VGA connector went where?

Jason S | 16 avril 2012

err... Betamax vs VHS. Blueray vs DVD. etc (I messed up my Tech examples)

lol... here's one -- WHERE'S MY STANDARD EDIT BUTTON FOR FORUMS?!

Teoatawki | 16 avril 2012

Dude, where's my jet pack?

Brian H | 16 avril 2012

By the time the standards committees get thru hashing the competing claims out and settling the details, technology has made the options considered obsolete.

Standards should be open-ended, and set minimum compatibility requirements, and no more.

cerjor | 16 avril 2012

I stopped and looked at one of the charging stations that Oregon had put in as part of the West Coast Electric Highway (or some such name) which is to run along I-5 from the Canadian to Mexican border. The one I saw had a CHAdeMO level 3, fast DC charger and a J1772 charger. I asked my Tesla person if the CHAdeMO was compatible with the Tesla. Here is his reply, "We do not have an adapter that will allow use of CHAdeMO chargers at this time. We may offer an adapter in the future, although it would not be a simple device unfortunately. We will on the other hand offer our own even higher speed chargers along popular routes. We’ll talk about this more in a few months."

Why would Tesla want its own network of chargers when at least WA, OR, and CA are setting up what seems to me to be a good network. Is setting up the Tesla network less costly than modifying the car to take the CHEdeMO?

Jason S | 17 avril 2012

Is CHEdeMO better than the Tesla supercharger?

Teoatawki | 17 avril 2012

Not by a long shot, but they will definitely be more common.

Brian H | 17 avril 2012

cerjor;
Tell your rep that you prefer to drive on unpopular routes. >:)

stevenmaifert | 17 avril 2012

There is another thread that discusses where future Model S owners would like to see a TM Supercharger installed. When you read through that thread, you find there is a need for Level 3 DC fast charging just about everywhere to make cross country travel in an EV practical. It's not reasonable to expect TM to install their DC Supercharger everywhere, but with the deployment of DC fast charging by a number of companies, we may find DC fast charging opportunity along most major routes, not just the Interstates. Every non-TM DC fast charger I can find in the US uses the CHAdeMO standard, even though it's not standard in the US. The reply cerjor got from his rep on the CHAdeMO charger compatibility question suggests TM is in no hurry to come up with an adapter, probably because of some serious technical complication with their proprietary charge port and software. Meanwhile, Model S deliveries will start in July and we will have no practical way to take a cross country trip until TM builds out their Supercharger network. TM has "plans" but as far as I know, the first one has yet to be built. I sure hope TM has something to say about this real soon!

Jason S | 17 avril 2012

Could you take that cross country trip even using the existing CHAdeMO chargers?

stevenmaifert | 17 avril 2012

Jason - It depends on where you live. I live on the West Coast, so I-5 is my primary focus. If you live in Oregon, you're good to go now. Washington State has some delays but should be completed in early 2013 and California by the end of 2013: http://westcoastgreenhighway.com/electrichighways.htm These are robust DC Fast Chargers: http://www.blinknetwork.com/brochures/dc-fast-charger/page02.html, http://evsolutions.avinc.com/products/public_charging/public_charging_b and should be able to restore the 85kWh battery to an 80% charge in 90 minutes or less...not as fast as the TM Supercharger, but still a practical alternative to a TM network that doesn't exist and may not for quite some time. The planning for the network mentioned above started in 2009.

Jason S | 17 avril 2012

West Coast Green Highway is combo of CHAdeMO and level 2 devices for Japanese electrics and American electrics respectively. And it seems to be only OR and WA... leaving out California.

They appear to be using Blink or EV Solution's chargers, so I guess that explains that.

So the question is: are these Betamax or VHS or Laserdisk?

jerry3 | 17 avril 2012

- So the question is: are these Betamax or VHS or Laserdisk?

More like 8Track or cassette :-)

DanD | 18 avril 2012

Problem is that these aren't $200 phones or VCRs. These are $65,000 cars. Tesla and a lot of the "enthusiasts" in these forums are treating this car like it's a hobby.

Some of us are treating it like a luxury car purchase that will be the second most expensive thing they own after their house.

For us 2%ers this isn't a joke and we're not particuarly happy to hear "that's what you should expect as an early adopter".

Having a charger strategy worked out that leverages the other existing infrastructure before the first car ships seems like a reasonable expectation.

stevenmaifert | 18 avril 2012

DanD - Amen!

Liz G | 18 avril 2012

I second DanD.

Brian H | 18 avril 2012

stephen;
Cross-country with a Model S:
1) Hire a flatbed.
2) ...

/8-)

Teoatawki | 18 avril 2012

Way to suck the joy out of an awesome journey, Brian!

;D

Brian H | 18 avril 2012

Alternative:
Pack air mattress and blankets in back/frunk;
Plot all national, state, and RV parks along route.
Drive to closest to full range each day, park and sleep and charge a few hours, then hit the road.

This will maximize time on the road, at the cost of destroying your circadian rhythms. ;p

Volker.Berlin | 19 avril 2012

Green Car Reports: "Does Public Charging Network Confusion Hurt Electric-Car Use?"
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1075451_does-public-charging-network...

GeorgeA | 20 avril 2012

I just received an email from Telsa stating that the personal delivery charge would be $990 and $180 for a final inspection / paperwork fee. Unclear if delivery charge could be waived if you picked it up at factory. Don't forget to add sales tax and the $1200 home charger that most buyers will need. Although our prepaid deposit will be deducted from the final price which is nice, the federal credit if you qualify, you will not realize the savings until your taxes are filed. But enough of that, just think how you will feel when your Model S arrives at your home.

jerry3 | 21 avril 2012

- Unclear if delivery charge could be waived if you picked it up at factory.

It's been made clear in posts on the other forum: There will be no difference in the delivery charge between factory, store, or home delivery. They have also said that they want to push home delivery as much as possible because they want to ensure proper network set up and charging.

stevenmaifert | 21 avril 2012

I don't think most buyers are going to need the $1200 home charger and the extra $1500 on-board charger (twin charger option) to use the home charger effectively. You would only need it if your daily driving requirement takes the battery to near exhaustion every day and you need the quicker overnight recharge. I plan on having an electrician install a 240V NEMA 14-50 outlet in my garage and use the included adapter that will come with the Model S.

GeorgeA | 21 avril 2012

Steven:
Good point. Home charger using on-board charger (twin charger option) charges 62 miles/hr or 31 miles/hr with the single charger. Using a 240V as you plan, will your setup charge at 31mi/hr? If so, even if 300mi 85kWh empty battery could charge in 10hrs. If so could save $1200+$1500=$2700 by not needing these as you said, I will have to rethink my needs! But can you still get the twin charger installed in future if your needs change?

Jerry:
I planned on home delivery anyway. Seems like the best way to go. Telsa will likely place it inside their enclosed trailer.

cerjor | 21 avril 2012

My permanent home is in Washington state and will not have to pay sales tax on this all electric car. But I spend winters in Arizona. If I be take delivery in AZ can i license it in WA and pay no sales tax? Or will I have to pay AZ sales tax?

gjunky | 21 avril 2012

I believe there is no sales tax on electric cars in AZ either so it won't matter.

jkirkebo | 22 avril 2012

"I plan on having an electrician install a 240V NEMA 14-50 outlet in my garage and use the included adapter that will come with the Model S."

Personally I do not want to pack and unpack the UMC all the time. I want a permanent charge point on my wall. A good looking one, not a cable with a box on, connected to a socket. Something that can be mounted outside, as we park in our front yard.

However, the HPC won't work since we can't spare (and don't need) more than 25A of charging power. The HPC can't be dialed that far down. Hopefully some other solution will be made available, I would prefer not to use a J1772 unit with the J1772 adapter all the time.

MyDreamCar | 22 avril 2012

"Mr. Musk said that the first Supercharger would be installed along Interstate 5 at the Harris Ranch in Coalinga, Calif., roughly halfway between Los Angeles and San Francisco, within the next three or four months."

This article was dated October 26, 2011. Has anyone seen or heard anything about the status?

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/26/bucking-trends-tesla-goes-it-...

jerry3 | 22 avril 2012

- However, the HPC won't work since we can't spare (and don't need) more than 25A of charging power. The HPC can't be dialed that far down. Hopefully some other solution will be made available, I would prefer not to use a J1772 unit with the J1772 adapter all the time.

1. The most efficient charging is over 32A. Below 32A actual power usage goes up.
http://www.saxton.org/tom_saxton/2010/07/tesla-roadster-charging-rates.html

2. http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/6171-DIY-Home-EVSE/page15
On the bottom of that page is a post by hcsharp.

stevenmaifert | 22 avril 2012

Each of our charging needs will vary with our driving needs. I plan on getting the 85kWh battery with most of my charging being done at home. The 240V NEMA 14-50 outlet works just fine for me and I will coil the UMC cable on a rack. For GeorgeA - TM says the 10 kW capable single on-board charger can handle up to 40 Amps which is the nominal draw of a 240V NEMA 14-50 50 Amp circuit. Your thoughts about charging at a 31mi/hr 10 hour recharge would be pretty close I would think for a depleted 85kWh battery.

stevenmaifert | 22 avril 2012

@MyDreamCar - Tesla had a Level 2 HPC for the Roadster up and running at Harris Ranch in January 2011: http://carstations.com/3814 I don't know one way or the other, but it's probably a safe bet they are upgrading that location to the first DC Supercharger. If it was operational, I'm sure it would have been announced with the usual Tesla fanfare. So far, nothing I can find. If anyone reading this has passed by that location recently, your observation would be appreciated.

MandL | 23 avril 2012

I was thinking something like this with a Tesla connector mounted on the ceiling of the garage.

http://www.khindustries.com/webmodules/catcatalog/dtl_category.aspx?CatID=8

BYT | 23 avril 2012

@MandL, that is cool and I think we can adapt it to the Model S' charger?

jkirkebo | 23 avril 2012

"The most efficient charging is over 32A. Below 32A actual power usage goes up."

Doesn't matter here as I will probably blow the main fuse if I try to charge at 32A or more. The sweet spot for us is probably 20A. I actually have a 20A EVSE for my Leaf now (Clipper Creek LCS-25), if they start to make them with optional Tesla connectors that would be nice :)

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