Anyone saw that news on Elon's comment on the Business Insider today: Tesla is only building the Model S and Model X for 'sentimental reasons'? what a heart break
Selective quoting then. Did you not listen to the Q3 call? BI is BS almost without fail.
Tesla's mission is to save the world by accelerating the adoption of sustainable transport. S and X have served their purpose of getting other manufacturers to produce EVs, and getting the 3 and future models to market that will have more impact (Elon expects the Y to outsell S 3 X combined).
Just because S and X do not advance the mission to the extent higher volume vehicles do, they still produce margin which is helpful.
I said several months ago that the S & X are likely on borrowed time. The Model 3 is just too reasonably priced. The Y will make things worse. The life line is the Plaid model they're building, so we should have a stay of execution for at least another couple of years.
But, the car needs a serious refresh to become "fresh" again and generate new interest. Otherwise, for most people, the Model 3 suffices. I'm not one of those as I just bought the S. But, sadly, sales have plummeted on the S & X since the 3 came out and will decline further when the Y is released if the S & X remain mostly the same (aside from minor updates)
I hope they choose to refresh it rather than cancel it, but time will tell. The Roadster was supposed to be out by 2020. Elon has already stated that it's on the back burner right now. Whatever they're doing is working for them as they were profitable and the stock when up a whopping 20% overnight. But for the true fans of Tesla, it's disappointing to see the S & X get less love than the little brothers are getting. And the Plaid Model S appears to just be an ego thing for Elon.
I'm one of those people who would not fathom spending more than $50k for a vehicle. Yet I bought a Model S because it was available and the Model 3 was not. While I love my S and the hatch back which is great for road trips, if I had a choice at the time, I would have bought a Model 3. I was one of the in-store reservation holders. I don't think there is a large population of people who can or want to spend S or X level costs for a new vehicle.
Elon will continue to make S and X for sentimental reasons. Not for his own sentimental reasons but for people who have sentimental reasons to like these kinds of cars. In a decade or so most cars Tesla makes will be 3/Y type half or more of them deployed as robot taxis. Remember this is Elon he only sees the future.
If they get rid of the S, this will be the last Tesla I own. Unless they offer a S-style dash in the 3. I do not like the bare dashboard of the 3.
Every major brand has such cars. They are the flag ships that prove the strength, skill and abilities of the company. So they are important to the reputation of the brand. I'm betting They will always be Tesla's best "ALL PURPOSE" cars.
I like Model 3/Y but it’s not fancy enough for my taste. Roadster is cool but I like having 4 doors. We know there will be at least one more major version of Model S/X at least. Hopefully they are more than just powertrain/performance enhancements and Tesla keeps the “niche” alive. I also look forward to seeing what the Tesla Pickup is like.
The biggest issue with Tesla is the software. Really don’t want an orphaned car that doesn’t get updated features lower priced Tesla’s have. It will be telling to see what the pickup and roadster have for infotainment and instrument clusters. If they end up more like a Model 3 vs Model S that will be a bad sign.
DarthAmerica I agree I just don’t want a car with no software updates and lagging behind.
If the main premise of the car is FSD then yeah that will suck... they will shift focus to the profit centers.
Like Anthony J. Parisio said the car will exist long as there are people who want to buy it but it will not be Tesla's bread and butter product.
@Bighorn... no need to be defensive about a direct quote from Elon, no matter who reported it. We all love our S & Xes, feeling like we are the pioneers, but you can not help but feeling hurt, especially for us who paid (with out hard earn money) for the FSD, which has yet to materialize, and hope our loyalty and support would prove to the world that we are on the right side of things. But, if the mind set of Elon is such, are we then just a bunch of wishy followers of Elon's personal ideology and possibly now be left behind.
I hope the "sentimental reasons" will linger for generations to come. I love my S too much and like Darthamerica said a neglected S with no updates coming in will be a dream crusher....
Many will remember when Mercedes was exclusively a large luxury sedan. Mercedes leveraged the prestige they earned with high end cars and then made more affordable cars for the masses. Mini Mercedes if you will.
The S and X earned the prestige that gave the Model 3 the desire to be owned. Tesla has made the Model 3 equivalent or better w.r.t software. This causes erosion in the S and X sales. Couple that with unexpected pricing changes in the Model S where in 24 hrs a massive discount would happen as the Tesla random number generator burned the customer that bought the car a day earlier. This created reluctance to buy until the chaotic pricing stabilized. The model S and X still are very big selling luxury cars compared to their ICE competitors.
If they do discontinue the S, I'm not worried that they won't continue to update the firmware.
Doug the problem is people bought S/X for features that were promised and yet to be delivered. When I traded my P85+ and got my P90DL, Tesla directly said it would be able to drive autonomously. Then the nag and HW 2.0 showed up. So clearly my car will never perform as advertised. I let it slide because AP1 was and is still a game changer. Not to mention that HW 2.0, EAP, NoAP, Smart Summon are not really that much better. So with Model S now being a “niche”, you have to wonder how much effort Tesla will put towards its SW. Its also possible that HW 3 isn’t going to be able to do FSD either and another revision will show up. Will Tesla support that on Model S with its different UI? I want to believe the answer is yes but these comments from Elon are discouraging.
The usual Darth FUD
Ahhh the fully expected rumors and “panic”.
Just as the S-Class, A8, and 7 Series are not the bread and butter cars for those respective companies, neither is the S/X for Tesla. Elon at the same time made that “sentimental” remark and Bloomberg left out was that he praised the S and especially the X. Saying that the X is the Faberge Egg of cars. Also the demand of S/X is stable. They even said that for Q4 they are going to be increasing production of the S/X.
Excerpt from the NY Times below. I think Tesla needs the S/X for a bit more than just sentimental reasons.
"The company said it delivered 97,000 new cars in the third quarter, a rise of almost 2 percent from the previous period....
Tesla said it delivered 79,600 Model 3 sedans in the quarter, an increase of 2.6 percent from the second quarter. But deliveries of its larger, more established offerings — the Model S and the Model X — totaled 17,400, a decline of 250. Analysts say that is a problem for Tesla, since those vehicles often sell for $90,000 and produce far more profit than the Model 3, which sells for as little as $39,000."
I absolutely love my S. When my lease ended on the last one, I tried to be smart and practical and purchased a Model 3. That lasted for about 8 months. Yet I was really ready to get out of it after about a week. Just wasn't for me. I hated it. Couldn't wait to get back to a Model S. At the time however, the supposed refresh was imminent, so I suffered through with the Model 3. As soon as Elon said there would be no refresh of the Model S and just after the Raven update was released, my new car was ordered and on the way. Received 9 days later.
I actually like the look of the Model Y (other than the headlights, hate the damn headlights on the model 3/Y. Those big blobs of white on them.....ugh...). Problem with the Y is that everything I hated about the Model 3 exists on the Y. So that car isn't an option for me. I came very close to buying an X, but, for anyone that's ready my posts, knows I'm BIG on user friendliness. There is simply no comparison between the S & 3 in user friendliness. Add that to the much higher build quality, air suspension, auto truck, a hatch vs a trunk, a center gauge panel, a center big screen that doesn't give away 1/3rd of its space to the information that should be on the center gauge panel, etc, etc, etc. The Model X's Falcon wing doors, as cool as they are to watch and may have some practicality in some cases, along with the auto open doors, both of which I know would have gotten on my nerves when needing to quickly and simply get in and out of the back seat or walking by the car only to have the door open and block my path, are the reasons I went back to the S. The second I got back in, I just let out a big sigh of relief and said "I'm home", after my 8 months of torture (LOL) in the Model 3.
I love Tesla's tech and capabilities, but not a fan of the minimalist approach. Just personal tastes. The Model S already tested my limits. The Model 3 just way over exceed it. The S has just enough to be user friendly without being cluttered at all. The Model 3, for me, was just ridiculous having to do everything from the center screen. At least it has a passive key fob now, that was one of my big issues with the M3. Haven't seen a post since about people having issues getting into their car. I've never had an issue with any of my Model S cars. Daily issues with the M3. Spend $50,000+ or $80,000+ for a car, I want it to be easy to use and I sure as heck don't want it to annoy me! The MS fits the bill perfectly.
I hope, if they ever do update/refresh it, that they don't go too far in the direction of the M3 or MY. I would have to be out. I always prefer something fresh and new, yet I've gone back to the S multiple times over for a reason. I hope Tesla does do away with those reasons, which I fear could be the case. Spending the extra $30,000+ on the S was worth every penny for me. Absolutely wouldn't be worth if it turns into just an over-sized Model 3, even if the quality is better. I personally just can't stand the interior of the M3. Again, personal preference. Not trying to offend anyone. I put my money where my mouth is by upgrading back to the S. Best car decision I ever made!
Also, the $20,000 price reduction of the MS & MX made it a no brainer decision.
When I spent $120 to $130K for my prior MS, Tesla customer service was excellent, loaner cars always at the ready, I was able to uniquely configure the car the way I wanted it, with the color and option combinations I wanted, not the streamlined generic choices that Tesla now limits us to.
The prior car was worth $120K+ when all of the above was considered. I would have struggled to justify that price with the way things are today. Customer service has declined, options have gone away, I have several interior choices that I would not have chose, if I had the choice, but, at less than $90K for the new car, the price reduction met the sacrifice. Hence, get less now, but paid significantly less too. Without the price drop, I'd probably be in another brand right now.
For the most part, I am not your typical tesla owner. The model 3 was even too expensive to me. I bought a 2013 model S because it was more affordable than any used model 3 on the market. And at this point, I can't imagine the model s going away. while the 3 is definitely more affordable, and will be in the future when they start hitting the used market, the dash is a killer for me. I love the small screen in front of me, and main screen in the middle. I like that it is cleanly installed into the car, not like a tablet superglued to the dash.
People who buy S's don't want a car everyone drives. Just like people who buy BMW 745's are not content with a 330.
I think there will always be a market for it. Albeit smaller as those who opted for an S only because a 3 wasn't currently available, leave.
For decades I've driven large, high end cars. While my Model S is sparser in many ways, it is still my favorite car of all time, and for so many reasons. As I've written on this forum several times, I've been ready to buy a refreshed model S for over a year now. I recently test drove a Model 3 and the new Raven, back to back. To me, there was no comparison - the 3 and upcoming Y (which is obviously a 3 hatchback no matter how the differences are spun), just won't do it for me. So it's sad to think that there may never be a Model S 2.0. I won't buy the same car that I already have, even with the software updates and occasional little tweaks.
The good news is that I truly believe that the world has turned the corner to EV's, and that in twenty years people will laugh at the fact that we all used to drive ICE vehicles. I don't believe in the robotaxi nonsense however, as we, especially Americans, love our cars and love to drive. As for FSD, I'll believe that when I see it. Oh, to a degree it will work as long as a driver is paying attention and holding the wheel waiting to take over, but fold away steering wheels and pedals - nonsense. Not until all cars are FSD and can communicate with each other could this be safely done - too many variables/factors. That being said, perhaps it will only be 10 years or so when every manufacturer is producing an EV in every model. Then, once again, will I be driving a full sized luxury vehicle with great performance and range, with super like chargers available at most/all existing service/charging stations. Of course, it will be a Mercedes or BMW or Lexus. But Elon Musk will have realized his dream, and for me the Tesla Model S will be a fond memory of the good times it gave me in the twenty teens - the original, perpetual grin maker.
Love S all the time. None can substitute it.
I don't remember what interview it was but Elon answered a question about how long Tesla would continue to update their cars. He said that they will push updates out to every car, based on it's age, for it's expected lifespan. Perhaps 10, 15, maybe even 20 years, whatever makes sense.
Even if you stop getting updates after X amount of years, I'm sure you could always stop by a SC to have them check the version you have to see if there's a newer version that they could push to your car.
Let's not get all worked up about our cars becoming outdated, Tesla will take care of you.
My sense of normal is warped but I think the younger generations love their phones more than their cars. If they could play on their phones while getting a ride in a car, they would drop manually driven cars the way people have dropped tapes that needed to be rewound.
“Let's not get all worked up about our cars becoming outdated, Tesla will take care of you.”. +1,0000
After receiving V10 recently, the total count of additional features/functionality that my March 2014 Model S has received is now 70. Granted my car does not have AP, “Tesla theater”, but my car has gained more features and functionality that it had when hew.
Jordan that's fine and good for new buyers since Tesla is "a little" more transparent about FSD. But for those who bought or upgraded when AP came out, Tesla wasn't very honest about the HW limitations. Hopefully HW3 can deliver but I suspect it won't and it will not get beyond "sort of" level 3 autonomy. I think FSD should be called "conditional self driving" or "limited self driving". That's a much more accurate description.
When I shopped for a Tesla, the sales guy said that the car was the worst it would be when I purchased it. Software updates would improve it over time, and indeed my car is so much better than when I got it two years ago.
Justifiably, recently Musk has shifted his comments from having a long term vision to a more laser focus on the near term.
From an economic standpoint, Telsa's largest revenue sources will be 3/Y/pickup/Semi and likely Energy battery storage - compared to 3/Y/pickup, S/X will always be a relatively tiny market - and for many of the current S/X owners, that purchase was the most expensive vehicle they've ever purchased, and would strongly have considered a 3/Y if those vehicles had been available.
That doesn't mean S/X/Roadster are dead - just that Tesla will likely limit investments in those models in the near term. Other manufacturers have a range of high volume to low volume vehicles - and it's likely Tesla will continue to do so.
The biggest long term problem for S/X is the manufacturing resources required to make them. S/X need to be brought together with more common parts - so they can be built on the same line - and for those models to survive long term - that's likely going to happen - but possibly not for 12 to 24 months.
What Musk is calling as "sentimental" is really Tesla's "prestige" models - intended for much smaller markets - and at a higher price point that will justify capabilities (range, size, features) that won't make sense on the higher volume lower priced models.
What's surprising is that Tesla significantly cut the prices for S/X this year, much more than the loss of the $7500 federal tax credit, losing the opportunity for increased profit margin - though what they've done is also forced their upcoming competitors to also hit that lower price point, which will make it even more difficult for them to make any profit of their EVs when they come to market.
bp I never thought of that perspective. By Tesla cutting the price on S and X Porches and other competitors will REALLY have a hard time competing with them. Tesla players a real “hard ball” game. While they should, given how they have been treated by the short me and the press!
Wait, I thought Elon's master plan was to promote EV's everywhere, from everyone? Remember, the ICE cars are his competition, and he is supposed to be encouraging EV manufacturing to no end. So now he's trying to hurt the EV competition? He lowered S and X prices because they are not selling because they are stale. That's the only reason why I'm sitting on my wallet.
AFAIK Tesla lowered prices because of the fading federal tax credit and better economies of scale.
@NKYTA + 1
Elon is incentivized to have an aggregate margin on the vehicles of 30% for 4 consecutive quarters. That is very high in the industry, BTW. Lowering prices while having this incentive would support the economy of scale observation and being able to reduce cost to the consumer.
Dtodd16, actually he is taunting the competition to get them to do better.
Strong Kool Aid here! The price was lowered because there's no way to justify a $150K Model S that doesn't have major customer facing updates. Everyone knows and for a while understood the markup was a capital raise. That won't work in 2019. The price was lowered to be in line with what people expect to pay for a car like this. It has zero to do with taunting.
DA, now you’ve made your trolling blatant.
There is no way to justify a Porsche badge, interior and confounding buttons with just a badge.
Get over it. Everybody wins on this Planet, NOT because of Porsche/VW.
Thousands of people justify it every year. I don't have to...
And the company faces fines. Wrong again.
Darth seems to try to put a negative spin on all things Tesla.
Darth is a liar. I was at the original AP event and there was NEVER a promise that AP 1 would lead to FSD. More trollnip.
SamO many people here know you're full of crap. Many many nag post here prove that.
Yes, I paid a $20K premium to buy an S instead of a comparable Model 3... But I got way over 20K more car (IMHO). Size, dash, hatchback (where my dog lives on road trips), faster, smoother ride, and free life supercharging..., not to mention a sexy design vs the weird lines of the 3... I'll take my S any day of the week.
$20K premium to an M3 will get you a used MS. A new MS is closer to double the price of an M3.
Depends on the cars:
M3 runs from about $36K to $66K depending on options
S100D starts at $80K and goes to $95K with all options
So for $20K over the most expensive M3, you can get a base S100D, and toss in $6K of options. Still, not quite a fair comparison.
"comparable M3" being the objective words.
A long range AWD M3 is $48,000. A Model S is $80,000. $32,000 price difference. Worth every penny for me.
310 vs 370 range
4.4 vs 3.7 0-60
Stiff spring sport suspension vs adaptive air suspension with option for sport setting
Manual trunk vs auto hatch
Pay per use supercharging vs free supercharging
Manual door handles requiring full hand use vs auto present door handles requiring just a pinky to open.
Model S is MUCH quieter inside.
1/3 of M3 screen chewed up by info that should be on a center gauge cluster vs 100% use of screen in MS
Everything controlled from center screen vs MS being far more user friendly with a couple of well placed buttons/stalks.
MS screen integrated into the dash and looks like it was planned out vs M3 screen looking like an ipad stuck on with a magnet.
MS screen has much better viewing angles than M3 screen. Can see everything easily from driver's seat. M3 is tough to see things at the far right, especially when trying to glance quickly while driving
MS has far more comfortable seats. Front and rear.
MS has FAR better overall build quality (it should for $30,000 more).
This all aside from the size difference, which will be based on each owner's preference. MS is more car than M3 naturally. Figure 10% of the price difference is solely attributed to the size difference, so the price difference is really closer to $24,000 if you adjust for the size difference (Model S 10% cheaper if built as a smaller car with the same features).
75kwh battery vs 100kwh battery. At $200 per kwh, that's another $5,000 alone. It's $8,000 to go from a standard range M3 to a Long Range M3. If they had an option for a 310 range Model S, likely would be priced around $5,000 less. So now the real difference is only $19,000.
Performance MS is $9,000 more to gain 1.2 second faster 0-60 time. $750 per 1/10th of a second. Model S is 6/10ths quicker. There's another $4,500, bringing the difference down to $14,500 if you balance out performance, size and range.
I've owned and driven both. Gave the M3 an honest try for 8 months. For 7 3/4 months, I couldn't wait to get out of it after having come from an MS. Just based on my personal needs and preferences. For a true difference of $14,500, it's honestly the difference between driving a "nice" Honda accord vs driving a "high quality" BMW in terms of overall quality. The MS is just a solid, high-end car and it feels like it. The M3, is great in it's own right, but in terms of quality, is more rickety and feels like a much lower quality brand than a high-end premium car.
At least the M3 FINALLY has a passive key fob option for $150. That was a big one for me!
M3 wins out on interior storage space.
Based on my personal preference and having come from the MS: Hated the door handles. Hated the sparse interior. Hated the key card / phone key (since corrected for $150). Hated the ride quality. Hated having to do everything from the center screen. Hated not having driver info directly in front of me. Hated not having a simple button to open the glove box. Hated not having a designated stalk for wipers.
Prefer the much quieter interior, much better ride quality, much more comfortable seats, vertical screen orientation.
Would be nice if Tesla updated the car to be fresher, but the MS is still an incredible car. If those updates move along the lines of the M3, would be a turn off for me and many others. Would rather see them stick with what they have!
To the M3's benefit, it has basically all the tech features that makes a Tesla a Tesla. If you're just looking for a "nice", not weird looking EV with significant range, charging infrastructure and auto pilot features and are coming from a mid-range brand of car, the M3 is an AMAZING alternative. For those used to higher build quality premium cars, the Model S delivers, when comparing to the M3. They are two different classes of car. As others have stated. Many bough the MS because the 3 wasn't an option and they wanted an EV with a usable charging infrastructure. Most would have never spent as much as they did on a Model S, but it was in a class of one for several years. The M3 opens the door for millions more people to make the switch, which is great. But, the MS still has its place. It just won't be as high volume as it was when there was no other option. The premium brands don't sell their top level cars in high volumes either. The only problem with the S/X sales figures is the fact that the numbers were skewed when there was no other alternative. Now that there is, the top level sales are probably more in line with other premium brands. Hopefully Tesla is OK with that and continues on with the S & X for years and years.
@2015P90DL good review. Good to know Raven improves on pre Raven build quality. M3 is cool but not for me. The manual trunk, door handles and no centered instrument cluster/display do it for me. But Mercedes S Class is the standard that I judge all ~$100K car interiors by. If you haven't sat in one then I encourage you to. I think Tesla needs to put the emphasis on interior and interior quality. For the $80K Long Range Model S I give it a C when consider all of the cool things a Tesla can do. But with the Performance Model S going for ~$100K it's not acceptable... D!