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Chademo & CCS Charging

Chademo & CCS Charging

Will the Model 3 be compatible with the current tesla chademo adapter? (http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/model-s-charging-adapters/produc...) In the UK there is an abundance of Chademo and CCS (Rapid 40-50Kw) chargers. While a CCS Adapter doesn't exist in the wild yet. Will the Model 3 need to have supercharging 'enabled' to use Chademo (Potentially CCS)? Or will it refuse to charge even when an adapter is used, or will it just limit the charge rate to circa 60Kw max when supercharging isn't enabled?

PhillyGal | 1 juillet 2016

We don't know for sure yet but there have been reports of Tesla sitting at "the table" of folks discussing standards.

If a standard is agreed to in NA in the next few months, be it ChaDeMo or CCS, I'm sure the M3 will have an adapter for it. If not, it might offer both. That would be cool.

gavinolukoju | 1 juillet 2016

Definitely will be cool, though looking at the documentation on the site for the Model S and on the shop. It looks like Supercharging needs to be 'enabled' for the Chademo adapter to work. From the Model 3 announcment we know that the Model 3 will be supercharger 'capable' assuming that it won't need any hardware upgrades to charge from a supercharger. Given that the theoretical peak charging levels of Chademo and CCS (50Kw) are significantly less than the peak charging levels for the superchargers (120kw) will we have to buy supercharging just to charge at a better rate than an 3, 7 or 11Kw post? I think a cool idea would be to limit the peak charging rate to 60Kw unless you purchase supercharging to unleash the full (120kw) potential. Even at 40-50kw the charging rate I'd expect to be around 120-160 Miles per hour. Which works for me if Im doing a journey and don't need to charge to 100% 60-80 miles in 30mins will be good for a commute, if Im low on charge or to bridge the gap to a supercharger if needed. It would be good to see if any Model S owners that don't have supercharging enabled and have used the chademo adapter could comment to see what the cars behaviour is?

gavinolukoju | 1 juillet 2016

For the record, I'd rather have an adapter or cables like the one tesla currently sells to interface with the car over having extra ports for each standard.

Rocky_H | 1 juillet 2016

Pretty good questions.
As far as hardware interface, I am almost certain that they will not change the charging port on the car, because they will want existing wall connector and Superchargers to fit it. Therefore, yes, the existing CHAdeMO adapters for North America and for Europe will still fit the Model 3 as well as the Model S.

As for enabling, I'm sure that there will not be some kind of paying or enabling that changes the speed of it, so there will not be 3, 7, 11, or 50kW differences from CHAdeMO based on how the car is set up.

So I guess the only remaining question which I don't have a guess for is: If the car is not enabled for Supercharging, could it still accept DC fast charging from CHAdeMO? Physically, the equipment should be there, but I don't know if they will consider that something that needs to be enabled or not.

PV_Dave @US-PA | 4 juillet 2016

+1 @Rock_H: The CHAdeMO adapter makes a CHAdeMO station "look" like a Supercharger to the car. They're not going to change all the Superchargers for Model 3, so if your Model 3 has Supercharging enabled, then the CHAdeMO adapter will probably work.

apa.hooft | 5 juillet 2016

Alle Model 3 cars will have the SC hardware enabled. Elon Musk stated that SC access needs to be purchased. However...the model for this still has to be published. Elon could imagine an option for access could be bought. This all concerns Tesla SC network access. Tesla won't loose any money when a M3 charges somewhere on a DC fastcharger.

So my guess is....all M3's will be able to charge at DC fastchargers, provided the necessary adapters are available. Tesla SC network access probably is determined on the ability of the car in question to prove to the network is HAS access. A token of some sorts?

tfay412 | 5 juillet 2016

I just don't see how in the world the Chademo adapter can cost $550

ir | 5 juillet 2016

@tfay412: You mean $450. The reason it is expensive is because it has a protocol converter chip to adapt the Supercharger control protocol to the CHAdeMO one.

Unlike the J1772 adapter that just converts the shape of the plug because the car already talks the J1772 control protocol.

tfay412 | 5 juillet 2016

Thank you for the clarification ir. I had originally thought it was just a cable.

topher | 5 juillet 2016

$300 chip?

Thank you kindly.

ir | 6 juillet 2016

Its really hard to recoup engineering costs for a fairly complex piece of hardware that is made in small quantities. The price has seen a few reductions as more people buy them.

topher | 6 juillet 2016

Ok, then why is this a fairly complex piece of hardware? Why wouldn't a raspberry pi do, for example? Is the protocol dealing with high voltage?

Thank you kindly.

ir | 6 juillet 2016

The high voltage part of the adapter is just copper wire. The "chip" is purely low voltage, but that isn't the problem.

For starters, "automotive grade" electronics need to function in extreme environments like -40C charging in northern Canadian winter to over 100C under direct sunlight like Arizona. The adapter is sealed and doesn't have a fan or heatsink like a cushy hobby board. Chip makers charge a hefty premium for these environmentally hardened parts, even more when you're ordering a few thousand instead of millions of units.

Similarly for the custom molded shell, adapter heads and internal components. Not to mention labor costs to assemble them.

Not all components of the Raspberry PI are rated for these conditions and by no means are guaranteed:
https://www.raspberrypi.org/help/faqs/#performanceOperatingTemperature

Here is the AEC-Q100 spec for automotive grade components:
http://www.aecouncil.com/Documents/AEC_Q100_Rev_G_Base_Document.pdf

Then there is the salaries of all the engineers needed to design and perfect the adapter. An average Silicon Valley engineer earns over $120,000. A dedicated team (software, EE, mechanical, materials, support, etc...) over 6 months can easily cost $1,000,000. It took Tesla a long time to design the adapter between all the forum posts, placeholder store pre-order, etc...

Not every Teasla owner wants one. If they sold the adapters at cost, they would never recover the R&D investment. Let's assume a 20% margin ($90 profit per adapter), they would need to sell over 11,000 units to recoup their R&D. More likely the margin is way higher. Tesla is a business, not a charity and they have a Gigafactory to build.

JayInJapan | 6 juillet 2016

Ask yourself, How much would it cost me in parts and labor to make one of these myself?

ir | 7 juillet 2016

Another DIY caveat is the testing needed to make sure nothing is "lost in translation" between control protocols, as the CHAdeMO is feeding DC directly to the battery cells.

Testing could get very expensive if you burn down a $80,000 car for every bug in the chip, physical or software design.

topher | 7 juillet 2016

"Testing could get very expensive if you burn down a $80,000 car for every bug in the chip, physical or software design."

If that's how you test, no wonder...

Thank you kindly.