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Maximum charging power for M3?

Maximum charging power for M3?

What is the maximum charging power for the M3? We have just got our first EV, a Renault Zoe with 41kWh battery and it is perfect for my daily transport to work and other small trips. But for trips longer than the battery capacity, it doesn’t work, since it can only charge with up to 22kW, which means that we nearly double our transport time, compared to driving in our ICE car. We just had our first experiences with the Zoe and based on this I think that that a car shall be able to charge at minimum 100kW, preferable >150kW, if it is intended for driving beyond the battery capacity. I couldn’t find data for the M3. Anybody who know it?

MKM3 | 23 octobre 2017

Hi Hans,
well I'd say: forget about charging at a *minimum* of 100kW on a Model 3. 110kW is about the maximum speed of a S or X.
I've recently calculated charging times in regard to Teslas published speeds.
The standard model seems to charge at a maximum of around 60kW (still 50% faster than the 2017 eGolf), the long range at around 80kW. This seems to be in perfect balance with other Tesla models if you factor in the use of 2170 cells in the 3 in contrast to more 18500 cells in every other model.

AC charging on every new Tesla Model in Europe is limited to 11kW (three phased 230/400V Type 2), DC (Supercharger, CHAdeMO, theoretically CCS) is only limited by battery capacity / number of cells / thermal conditions and ultimately SoC.

ShesNoCissy | 23 octobre 2017

Nontechnical person here. I was at the Tesla store and spoke with the agent about putting in a wall charger. He told me that Tesla has not published the details but it is believed that using a wall charger will not speed up the charging process like it does for the S and X. Best to just get a 240 plug. Do you know if there is any more information on this.

slasher0016 | 23 octobre 2017

Check out this nifty spreadsheet that's using real data from actual owners. It shows two instances of >100kW charging on superchargers. It'll go higher most likely, if the SoC was lower, but as you can see in the chart those two batteries already had some juice in them.

https://docs.google
.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1-6Cu9Xhn5tDpaxK_kNKK6e6ysF0VKXz1NcIus5z9pIc/edit?usp=sharing

slasher0016 | 23 octobre 2017

Forgot to source my link about it's from Model 3 Owners Club:

https://model3ownersclub.com/threads/model-3-charge-rate-spreadsheet.5080/

slasher0016 | 23 octobre 2017

Also @ShesNoCissy, Tesla has updated their charging information to include the Model 3. It shows charging rates form their wall connector and for the nema 14-50 plug and whatnot:

https://www.tesla.com/support/home-charging-installation

MKM3 | 23 octobre 2017

Hans mentioned a Renault Zoe, so it's fair to assume he's somewhere in Europe.
European Teslas have different AC chargers built in because we can easily get 3 phased charging at up to 400V at 16-32A at our homes here. Teslas standard single chargers handles 3x 230V @ 16A = 11kW.

ShesNoCissy | 23 octobre 2017

Thank you slasher0016!

With the DWP rebate in California, I calculate that the cost is about $50. Do you think it is worth it?

ReD eXiLe ms us | 23 octobre 2017

AC charging has a different 'maximum' rate compared to DC charging. CHAdeMO and Superchargers are both DC. I believe the Renault ZOE only has AC charging, but that it is among the fastest of them in Europe at 22 kW. CHAdeMO is a specification that gives up to about 90 kW, but most Real World installations are only 50 kW. Tesla Superchargers were originally 90 kWh, but were increased to 120 kW in early 2013, then were increased further to 140 kW to 150 kW. Keep in mind the 'extra' amount above 120 kW is used to share between paired chargers, so as one car fills, its rate is throttled back, and the other increases. The newest Urban Supercharger pedestal design is locked at 72 kW and there is no throttling between paired stalls.

It seems the OP might be asking three things, but phrasing it as a single question... What is the maximum charging rate for residential charging? What is the maximum charging rate for road trips? What is the maximum charging rate for the car? Those have different answers for different vehicles. It also gets confusing because some give answers in kW, while others do it in Amps. I know that the amount of Amps on an AC connection can be up to 80A for older Model S, and that it is less than 40A for Model 3. I know that the kW limitation on AC for Tesla products is less than 22 kW, which is why the Renault ZOE is impressive, but that since people mix terms all the time, I get confused.

dd.micsol | 23 octobre 2017

240 amps and 1200v-SC quality.

dd.micsol | 23 octobre 2017

should mention it's way too much energy-meaning the car can't handle all of it but that's the power you can get at a SC station. For practicality- listen to above posters. I use the telsa wall charger with 100Amp breaker. I think max is somewhere around 400m/hr charge max. Remember it software controls downward as it trickle charges.
That's why 1/2hr at sc is about right for 80% charge.

MKM3 | 23 octobre 2017

Yeah, using kW would be beneficial for comparing charging speeds between cars and across different continents where other charging methods (3 phased 400V AC) are being used.

MKM3 | 23 octobre 2017

BTW, Renault built a 43kW AC charger into a Zoe. They phased it out because it broke too often because of the excess heat built up in the onboard charger. Most public AC chargers are built to handle 43kW, but it's just not feasible for a car. 22kW would be excellent on a Tesla as there are so many public AC chargers around here.

Xerogas | 23 octobre 2017

Not sure if OP is asking about home charging or supercharging. Don't the Model 3 specs indicate 170mph max charge speed on a supercharger, for the long-range battery? And something like ~130mph for the normal-range battery?

Because OP mentioned "trips longer than the battery capacity", I would assume supercharging should be in the answers ew give.

HansSC | 24 octobre 2017

Thank you for the answers! Yes, I live in Europe/Denmark. My question is only related to the cars limits for charging. I am not sure what Tesla does. But I know that other companies offering charging is installing 150kW stations at the moment and plan to have them upgraded to 350kW within 5 years. So I assume Tesla does something similar. At home, I charge with 11kW at the moment, which is more than enough. At home charging speed is not an issue, since you don't wait for it to charge.

Rocky_H | 24 octobre 2017

@HansSC, Quote: "But I know that other companies offering charging is installing 150kW stations at the moment and plan to have them upgraded to 350kW within 5 years."

Ah, you've been reading the press releases and advertising. No one makes cars that can use charging that fast, though. Also, a press release about a new type of station with 350kW power level is just an announcement of a specification. It remains to be seen how many (if any) will actually get built and where. Tesla has already been running the 120kW Supercharger stations and the cars that can use them for about 4 years, and they have over 1,000 locations of them right now on multiple continents. So I'm just saying that Tesla already has this working and usable now, versus others who have plans and announcements that may happen. Here is a map of where Tesla's stations are:
www.supercharge.info

There is also the motivation issue. The other car makers aren't the ones making the charging stations. They just want someone else to deal with that. The cities or countries that are building some of the charging stations have a large cost to build them, but don't get much of a financial return, so it's a hard business model for them to build a lot. Tesla makes the cars and the stations, and more stations helps them sell more cars, so they have ongoing motivation to build both.

andy.connor.e | 24 octobre 2017

^

And it is also the lack of charging stations that could make someone not want to own an EV. Tesla is literally making their company viable by providing charging. It also doesnt make much sense for every company to build a national network of superchargers. I imagine, Tesla should charge other companies to be able to use them. Not having access to a supercharger network is basically guaranteeing your customers you're not leaving the city with it, unless it gets like 500 miles per charge. Would be great if Tesla could get money from other companies that way to build more stations and gigafactores. Or more car models.

MKM3 | 24 octobre 2017

@Rocky and Andy
Yeah the superchargers were not in question here. It's an amazing system, but it's simply wrong that the Model 3 charges at 120kW, it's the top speed for the biggest battery models in perfect conditions.

According to Teslas own numbers promoted, the LR model charges up to 170mi/30 minutes and the SR 130mi/30min. If you take the rated consumption of ~150Wh/km into consideration that equals out to around 60kW or 80kW under if there wouldn't be a power reduction at a higher SoC.

Noone suggests that a single car will be able to utilize 350kW, the cooling required would be immense. It's more about sharing that power among different charging points for multiple cars on one station.
I'd very likely use public DC chargers more than SuC, because they're along my route when I'm either getting groceries or shopping.
It's no competition to the SuC network, but in Europe public charging (AC as well as DC) provided by local companies is kind of a big thing.

HansSC | 24 octobre 2017

I just need a car which can be charged at min. 100kW, preferable min. 150kW. I am not worried about the charging stations. In Europe Clever is installing 150kW charging stations at the moment, where I can charge any car regardless of the brand. I assume that Tesla charging stations will offer minimum the same power as others. I assume that the maximum power offered by the charging stations will keep on increasing during the lifetime of my next car. But the limit for the car will not increase during its lifetime. So I only worry about the car, not about charging stations. My Zoe is perfect for my daily use. But for driving beyond the battery capacity, it is useless. I will replace my ICE car with a EV, when I can get an affordable one which can charge at minimum 100kW. I hope it can be a M3.

Rocky_H | 24 octobre 2017

@MKM3, I did forget about the lower Supercharging rates for Model 3. I had half-heard something about it but wasn't paying too much attention I guess. I just double checked that math, and it does seem like a little over 60 and 80kW for those published charging speeds.

Frank99 | 24 octobre 2017

In general, about 1C is the highest safe charging rate for LiIon batteries before the charge starts tapering near the end. That means that it's going to take an hour to charge them - and charging currents will be throttled to keep it in this range until someone builds an EV with a battery capable of faster charging. Some chemistries are capable of faster charging rates - but they suffer from either higher weight for the same capacity, or the need more battery volume, than the NCA chemistry that Tesla uses.

Porsche is claiming about a 4C charging rate for the Mission E (80% in 15 minutes) - we'll see if that happens. It will be a significant advance in the state of the art, if so.

A 350kw charger isn't going to be useful to anything using current technology except an EV with a 350 kwh battery.

BTW, Tesla is claiming 170 miles of range in 30 minutes - that's about half the rated range in about half an hour. That's a 1C charging rate. Sure, I'd love it if they could pump 2C into the battery and cut the charge time in half - but I like the concept of only having 5% battery degradation at 100,000 miles also.

georgehawley.fl.us | 24 octobre 2017

As per @Frank99, maximum charge rate is limited by the number of battery cells in a pack, the maximum charging voltage for a cell and the maximum charging current per cell designed into the battery pack by the manufacturer.

85/90 kWh Tesla pack has 7104 18650 cells. Max charging rate is 7104 X 4.2 volts (Li-ion cell limit) X 4 amps (Tesla limit) = 119.3 kW
100 kWh Tesla pack has 8256 18650 cells. Max. Charging rate is 8256 X 4.2 X 4 = 138.7 kW

Model 3 uses 2170 cells, still charge at 4.2 volts max. Max. Current limit set by Tesla is not known. My guess is 5 amps. There are 4416 cells in the 75 kWh pack. Max. Charge rate estimate = 4416 X 4.2 X 5 = 92.7 kW.

170 miles is about 55% of 310, the nominal range. Thst's somewhere around 41 kWh in 30 minutes for a nominal 75 kWh capacity (It is actually a little more, it is thought. Half an hour at 92 kW is 46 kWh Max., so getting a liltle less is consistent with the way Superchargers operate, starting at maximum power and diminishing power over time.

HansSC | 24 octobre 2017

I understand that higher charging power comes with higher battery capacity. So for replacing my ICE car, I will just have to wait for that to become affordable for me. I might still get the M3 to replace the Zoe, which is rented for one year. But replacing Zoe with a M3 might be a bit overkill and I was hoping that it could replace my ICE car.

georgehawley.fl.us | 25 octobre 2017

@Hans: look at it this way. It is not the battery capacity alone that determines the range of the car. It is that in combination with the efficiency of the car. The Model 3 has less air drag than the Model S and is 20% lighter giving it proportionately less rolling resistance. That is why they rated range is so high (310 to 335 miles, depending on whether you use Tesla's marketing information or the actual test results.) for a car with a 75 kWh advertised battery pack capacity.