# Forums

## Very long run on electricity.

I have an idea how to make the long drive Model S for Electricity. I plan to use the power of resistance of the air flow, which occurs when driving a car. Do you think that is possible?

Anton999 | 16 novembre 2012

I think it is possible.

Volker.Berlin | 16 novembre 2012

Perpetuum mobile doesn't work. Your very idea has been discussed here:
http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/crazy-idea

GoTeslaChicago | 16 novembre 2012

How can you tell a crazy person with a crazy idea?

When they answer their own question and confirm that the impossible is possible!

Anton999 | 16 novembre 2012

This is not a perpetual motion machine! This is a special generator that produces energy from the air!

Docrob | 16 novembre 2012

A wind turbine on a moving vehicle works if the source of the moving air is natural wind. A wind turbine on a moving vehicle does not work if the source of the moving air is the motion of the vehicle, if you try the drag created by the turbine will always be more then the power created and the system will result in a net loss of energy.

jbunn | 16 novembre 2012

Anton,

That's a perpetual motion machine. Let's look at it. You put power into the car to move it forward. Let's assume the wind is not blowing today. You go 60 mph and the wind seems to be blowing over the car at 60 mph. The car has to use power to fight it's way through the wind. Now let's put a turbine or other way of capturing energy from the air flow. It does indeed generate energy. It also increaces the drag on the car. The power the generator puts out is caused by turning the wind energy into electrical energy. Because of losses in the turbine and it's conversion into electricity, then putting it back into the battery, then back into the motor to power the car forward would result in massive loss of range. Roughly the maximim energy you could possibly hope to ever recoup is 80%. In reality, it's a lot less. So you'd be DECREACING your mileage and range by a minimum of 20% even with great engineering.

Getting Amped Again | 16 novembre 2012

Anton999 - if you put a very large, ultra-lightweight sail on your Model S, and painted the sail black on one side and white on the other, you could get some infinitesimal forward thrust from the Sun's photons hitting the sail. Other than that you're SOL.

Of course it wouldn't work out here in Seattle nine months of the year. 8-(

Sudre_ | 16 novembre 2012

All that needs to be said is...... there is a reason people like Elon make the big bucks and people like Anton999 don't :-)

markapeterman | 16 novembre 2012

+1 Sudre - lol
Apoogies to Anton999

markapeterman | 16 novembre 2012

apologies

Brian H | 16 novembre 2012

Apoogies sounds more interesting!

Timo | 16 novembre 2012

Simply way to think: Follow the path of the energy, and remember that no conversion of energy is never perfect.

battery - turbine - kinetic energy of the air against the car which is relative to kinetic energy of the car - motor - battery.

You are back where you started from, which means you just lost some energy. If the energy is originating from the same place where you are trying to add it it will never work.

Thing that could work:

Battery - solar panel - Sun radiation.

noel.smyth | 16 novembre 2012

What we need is lots of solar panels and wind farms and highways that charge electric cars as they drive over them.

http://www.fastcoexist.com/1679269/wireless-highway-charging-while-drivi...

tork | 16 novembre 2012

I'm like 99% sure Anton999 is just trolling you guys

Brian H | 16 novembre 2012

Timo;
Do two negatives attract?
"no conversion of energy is never perfect."
xxxxxxxxx
"conversion of energy is never perfect." or
"no conversion of energy is ever perfect."

mrspaghetti | 16 novembre 2012

Maybe he meant "all conversions of energy are always perfect". Eureka! It is possible!

:)

Brian H | 16 novembre 2012

Energy in > energy out. Entropy in < Entropy out. Enjoy!

Anton999 | 16 novembre 2012

Air resistance when passing front of the car will be higher than after a power generation systems.
Imagine now, if you keep foxes iron perpendicular to the wind, you'll feel pressure on him. And if in the same way to pick up a truncated cone, without the basics, hold on to the power of these two items will be carved. Frontal area of ​​these items have to beat the same.

Brian H | 16 novembre 2012

Anton999;
Gee, you sound just like spambot software! I wonder why that is? Could it be ... ??

Anton999 | 16 novembre 2012

So it seems, because I translate words in the online translator. According to this, there are some mistakes and failures in my proposals.

But you look like a piece of iron. Maybe you should think about?

Anton999 | 16 novembre 2012

But with jbunn@hotmail.com I would like to talk in more detail on this fact, as you seem to have an engineering background.

jbunn | 16 novembre 2012

Anton,

Ви розмовляєте англійською мовою?

Anton999 | 17 novembre 2012

Так, я розмовляю англійською, але не дуже гарно. Саме тому використовую перекладач.

Timo | 17 novembre 2012

Anton999, believe what I and jbunn wrote. It's not possible because of very fundamental law of physics, namely first and second laws of thermodynamics.

We can't create energy any more than we can destroy it. We can only convert it from one form to another. Conversion is never perfect.

Anton999 | 17 novembre 2012

Yes, Timo, I totally agree with you. But by my calculations, it turns out that the conversion of wind flow can charge the battery car. And the wind pressure to the front of the car bude not much, but still less than the conventional design.

Timo | 17 novembre 2012

Then your calculations have an error in them. What that error is is impossible to tell without seeing the reasoning and those calculations. Perhaps you are not counting in the effect of the air behind the turbine (and the car).

Only way for that to work is that it somehow improves the aerodynamics of the car and that is very unlikely.

TommyH | 17 novembre 2012

Your calculations (or intuition I suspect) are flawed.

You can equip your car with a wind turbine and generate electricity from it, but that would increase the drag of the car and ultimately be pointless, cost money, and even counter intuitive due to losses (heat generation) in a lot of areas.
It is easier to just decrease the drag of the car by making it smaller or more aerodynamic.

Anton999 | 17 novembre 2012

Error is unlikely, because my device can generate power from a weak wind flow, while driving a car 40 km \ h.

Timo | 17 novembre 2012

That's not any kind of proof of it working. That was like saying that blowing at the fan fan generates power. Of course it generates power. Does it generate net energy? Does it take more power to move the car with it that without the device?

Anton999 | 17 novembre 2012

This means that the force of drag car almost unchanged.

tomas.hutters | 17 novembre 2012

Maybe this (kind of) thread is the closest we will ever get to a perpetuum mobile?
Seriously, and no offense intended, don't we have better things to do?

Sudre_ | 17 novembre 2012

Guys come on... let this thread drop. Anton999 can not give a single bit a true data and you are letting him laugh at you as he posts this garbage.
If anything he is saying is true he would be able to post his calculations without giving away any secrets.

example:

Car A (base car)
speed: 20mph
wieght: 4000lbs
cd: 24
watt per minute from battery: 300
no turbine installed

Car B (experimental)
speed: 20mph
weight: 4015lbs
cd: 30
watt per minute from battery:420
watt per minute from turbine: 100

He obviously has NO idea that just adding weight to the car increases power used. He has no idea what the cd is at all.

Anton999 | 17 novembre 2012

Apparently this Sudre_ have no idea what I say! You really did not understand the meaning of the discussed ideas!!! And I do not heve CD!

Brian H | 17 novembre 2012

Duh. Cd is the Coefficient of Drag, and is essential to calculating the effects of wind resistance on the energy the car uses. You have no clue. Go away.

Anton999 | 17 novembre 2012

Available Brian H!!! In the discussion of the idea made ​​a farce! All such proffessory! And no one even tried to solve the problem of global warming! All that you can empty it and just troll!

Getting Amped Again | 17 novembre 2012

TC | November 16, 2012

I'm like 99% sure Anton999 is just trolling you guys

Me: I think the TC nailed this and I'm giving him the last word.

Sudre_ | 17 novembre 2012

I am now just going to report all of Anton999 as spam.

Anton999 | 17 novembre 2012

I'm not surprised if Sudre_ will soon present their idea how to save the world.

Front of the monitor is easy to discuss what that idea. Try it yourself at least something to present.

Anton999 | 17 novembre 2012

I created this thread in the forum is not to fight with blunt statements neumesnyh commentators! And in order to discuss with smart people the idea. Since then no one except the upstarts, regret having spent my time.

Thank you for the service company Tesla.

jbunn | 17 novembre 2012

Guys,

Anton is not a native English speaker. He speaks Ukranian, which you can tell by his sentence structure. He's using machine translation in addition to the small amount of English he has.

Better to discuss thermodynamics with him, but dont be rude. Hes trying to communicate.

Getting Amped Again | 17 novembre 2012

I apologize.

Volker.Berlin | 17 novembre 2012

OMG. I was quick to post a link that should have clarified it quite painlessly. Turns out, no, we have to reiterate it all over again... So be it.

Anton999 | 17 novembre 2012

Thank you for understanding jbunn@hotmail.com, I am very grateful for the solidarity and understanding.

Timo | 17 novembre 2012

@jbunn Better to discuss thermodynamics with him, but dont be rude. Hes trying to communicate.

I would love to, but he isn't giving much to discuss about. His "device" is obviously some sort of perpetual machine which doesn't really work, but unless he gives us quite a bit more info there is nothing much to discuss about.

@Anton999, here is a link to laws of thermodynamics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_thermodynamics

Translations at the left (English version is best though, as usual).

Very short version: you can never gain net energy from system where start and the end of the chain of conversions of the energy are the same.

Anton999 | 17 novembre 2012

Getting Amped Soon I'm not offended.

If Getting Amped Soon and jbunn@hotmail.com would like to discuss this topic in the mail, I would be happy.

I thought I would point out for those that have not seen it that there are some wind powered carts that appear to to be defying the laws of physics, but are actually very cleverly engineered and have can reach speeds over twice the speed of the wind. However, they are pretty ugly due to the big propellers and wouldn't want to apply them to the model s :).

Yes there have been a lot of propetual motion ideas on these boards I agree. But here is one that is not, and is a great mind exersize for engineers. The design I will present isn't propetual motion because it is leveraging the difference in speed between the ground and the air. Say you are out in the desert at a standstill and you have the wind is 20mph to your back. The difference is 20mph. Now lets say you are travelling 30mph directly downwind and now have a 10mph headwind. The difference between the air speed and the ground is STILL 20mph. If you cleverly construct a machine that has a propeller and wheels linked in a special way, you can harness the energy in the speed difference between the air and the ground. Then what seems impossible, namely going directly downwind faster than the wind itself becomes possible. If you don't believe me, see the following videos:

simple visualization of the physics:
(In this video the ruler represents the 'air'. Notice how the cart can move faster than the 'air')

A more technical visualization of the physics:

Timo | 17 novembre 2012

That's a clever system, but it only works if there is wind and it's tailwind. It doesn't work on headwind. That propeller is working like a sail. Doesn't help Anton999 case.

GoTeslaChicago | 17 novembre 2012

Any responses to a thread about perpetual motion are counterproductive. There are ample resources on the web if Anton999 wanted to educate himself. so far no evidence of that. My earlier post (#3 in this thread) was intended to show in humorous way that only crazies should respond to crazies!

GoTeslaChicago | 17 novembre 2012

Was post #4, not 3

jbunn | 17 novembre 2012

Anton,

Were you thinking about charging the air in front of the car, then using the moving charged particle to induce a current? You still have to put more energy into the system than you can get out. Entropy must be maximized.