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Top Gear lied/cheated in the Taycan vs Model S head to head video

Top Gear lied/cheated in the Taycan vs Model S head to head video

Pathetic. As if Top Gear needed more nails in their coffin after the departure of Clarkson and company, they now with this developing story and embarassment will surely lose more viewers. Certainly this isn't gonna help them gain more American fans!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE9eJtG8jaU&feature=youtu.be

Bighorn | 31 ottobre 2019

Great video by Brooks. We came to the same conclusion in Darth’s thread that the race was faked. And not a Raven. Fred remains an idiot.

carlk | 31 ottobre 2019

It immediately raised the red flag for me too when I saw the 11.08s 1/4 mile. That's about 0.5 second slower than what we usually see in a Raven. Top Gear should have known that too. My thought was they have somehow screwed the test, maybe intentionally, but I didn't realized it was downright cheating. And yes Fred as usual was clueless.

Another question is why Top Gear would do this for Porsche? Any sweet deal offered? My inquiring mind wants to know.

jimglas | 31 ottobre 2019

I am awaiting the two porsche worshippers to make fools of themselves on this thread also

carlk | 31 ottobre 2019

I bet you they will pretend this thread does not exist.

NKYTA | 31 ottobre 2019

I didn't notice that the license plate told the whole lie...

TeslaTap.com | 31 ottobre 2019

The summary so far:
- TG appears to use numbers from a different race with an MB a while back
- TG's numbers don't match many many other Model S times
- Claimed it was Raven, but license number shows it couldn't be - Raven wasn't available when the car was registered in the UK.
- Did not use launch mode in the Tesla, but did in the Taycan
- Tesla had 3350 miles or so, Taycan about 230. Unlikely new tires on the Tesla.
- TG claimed Tesla charge rate 150 kWh the rate of a pre-raven car.

It seems like a total TG scam. Just like they did to the Roadster years ago. Sad.

neezer | 31 ottobre 2019

@NKYTA what about the plates?

TeslaTap.com | 31 ottobre 2019

@neezer - To answer for NKYTA - In the comments for the video, someone in the UK realised the licence plate shows the car got registered before Raven was available in the UK. Cars arrive in England 1-2 months later than the US due to shipping. Tesla has often delayed international shipments of the latest versions to satisfy the USA demand and announcements.

Bighorn | 31 ottobre 2019

The 155 mph top speed was another sign it wasn’t a Raven.

TeslaTap.com | 31 ottobre 2019

Ok, a bit of investigation, and I'm less sure about the license plate. The way UK plates work is the year of registration is part of the license plate. The Tesla plate is LJ19 JPR. The "19" means the car was registered between 1-March-19 and 31-August-19 (it would be "69" if registered after August-2019). What I can't find is when the Raven first showed up in England. From other statements made in the video, it seems like it is not Raven, but the Licence plate does not confirm or deny it's a Raven unless we know for sure Ravens were first delivered in September or later.

nukequazar | 31 ottobre 2019

Did they say it's a Raven? And does it matter? Isn't Raven efficiency and comfort upgrades not speed or handling?

Bighorn | 31 ottobre 2019

Raven has been mentioned in the headlines about this contest. Whether it was a lie of omission or commission in the video would require a review of the tape. Raven absolutely reworked the suspension, as well as power management, and buyers have said that alone is worth the price of upgrading. Also boosted top speed which was another clue that they had an old car. Major upgrade and crazy if that weren't the benchmark.

Bighorn | 31 ottobre 2019

Can't forget the new permanent magnet motor as well. Also remember, having two motors allows for different gearing which gets you two gears without a gearbox kluge.

carlk | 31 ottobre 2019

It does not matter if they have mentioned it's Raven or not or whether they used launch control or not. The fact that they did not mention one is not the best available while the other is says it's a scam. They are professionals they should know better than that.

NKYTA | 31 ottobre 2019

TT, I read it in an internet comment, so it must be true!
;-)

Mathew98 | 31 ottobre 2019

"I told you I saw another video on the net so I must be a genius!"

"I warned you in advance..."

"You fanbois are so ignorant!"

Which pair of infamous trolls are blowing each other away and going down in flame?

neezer | 31 ottobre 2019

+50HP update coming for you Model S owners real soon, says Overlord Musk. It is nice to be a Tesla owner!

Sorry Darth, it is immensely more logical to own a Raven Model S than any Taycan for the money, as opposed to wanting to look sleeker and/or hurtling towards or through a bend quicker, and then realizing you have to deal with 5200-5300 lbs ... ;)

There will be few (~0?) converts here...ever.

nukequazar | 31 ottobre 2019

@neezer, wow, you guys really do enjoy driving fast in a straight line, and watching drag racing. Bores me to tears. I enjoy maneuvering a car through twisty roads or just around any corner. There's nothing in this world like the feel of an M-car on a twisty highway, as you literally feel the results of decades of meticulous engineering and manufacturing follow your every move, as if it knows what you're doing without the help of any AI or sensors. Just pure physical mechanics. Now if you could marry that kind of engineering with Tesla technology, we could have an amazing, amazing car.

Darthamerica | 31 ottobre 2019

@neezer it's not more logical if you're looking for a sports car because that's not what Model S is. If you're looking for a daily driver/GT car AND money is an issue then Model S is a better deal. If you want a sports car or money isn't a problem Taycan is better.

RedShift | 31 ottobre 2019

I’m gonna try me a Raven today! I have some free time, I am working from home, and I’m close to the Fremont factory :-)

RedShift | 31 ottobre 2019

Darth,

For the nth time. Taycan is not a sports car. It’s never going to be one.

Even if the Porsche CEO were to hold a gun to my head and ask me to say otherwise, I wouldn’t do it. :-)

It is a 5100+ lbs sporty sedan. After you cross the 4500 lbs hypothetical barrier, most cars get classified as GTs, since they cannot pretend otherwise.

Rear steering, adaptive suspension and other doodads are all apologizing profusely for the curb weight.

Note that I classify Model S as a sporty handling sedan. Not a sports car, either.

Sooner Porsche comes across and keeps it honest (should be easy, given their history, snark) the better it will be for them. Call it a sport GT with more performance than the Model S. I don’t mind at all.

inconel | 31 ottobre 2019

Isn't the Taycan heavier than Model S?

Darthamerica | 31 ottobre 2019

Redshift. So you're basically saying EVs can't be sports cars because of your arbitrary 4500lbs limit?

TeslaTap.com | 31 ottobre 2019

Yes, by about 140 lbs for the P100D, and the Taycan is 250 lbs heavier than the 100D. Not sure it's enough to make that much difference. Agreed with others - both are sporty sedans not sport sedans. I don't think Tesla has ever used sports sedan on the web or in print. Typically they state it as a performance sedan, which seems about right.

TeslaTap.com | 31 ottobre 2019

@Darh - what arbitrary limit would you put on it? 5000 lbs, 10,000 lbs, higher? For me, I'd question anything over 4,000 lbs as being a sports sedan, and that's being generous. I'd prefer to be in the 3,500 lb zone or below, but that tends to exclude all but exotics.

Darthamerica | 31 ottobre 2019

No limit. Porsche built it and considers it a sports car. If you want to dispute the designer, be my guest.

Bighorn | 31 ottobre 2019

Didn't Porsche say they consider every thing they build a sports car? Kind of hard to back that one up, making unilateral pronouncements which are verifiably quixotic.

RedShift | 31 ottobre 2019

@darth

I am saying anything that heavy can only be a pretend sports car, especially the one with 4 doors.

The Bentley continental was such a heavy car that it exhibited front drive characteristics in one review I remember reading a long time ago. (2006-2007 time frame)

You can add a lot of band aids to make it feel better, but fundamentals of sporty handling lie with lighter weight leading to more nimbleness, less reliance of band aids, and lower limits that are accessible earlier. On the street if you chose to.

Higher curb weight also translates to beefier suspension components, drive train, and so much more. All leading to inertness at lower speeds, and higher limits accessible at higher speeds. Probably illegal on the streets, but not so on the track.

SamO | 31 ottobre 2019

I am a sports car. Prove me wrong.

Lol

Darthamerica | 31 ottobre 2019

Redshift, Porsche says it's a sports car. Around the Ring, it performs like a sports car. No other EV on the market can claim that. So they didn't just say it, they proved it. I'm being objective. But if you don't want to call it a sports car for your own arbitrary reason that's fine too.

RedShift | 31 ottobre 2019

@teslatap

Used to be that the BMW M5, that quintessential sports sedan was just north of 4000 lbs in its E60 form, circa 2006. More inert at street speeds than my nimble, superb BMW 325i with sports pack. However, on the twisty roads at speeds that were way above posted limits, the car felt like it could do no wrong. You felt like god, just rushing through any corner at very high speeds, while the car grew smaller around you...

Now, the G platform based M5 weighs in at nearly 4400 lbs.

BMW was fantastic about keeping curb weight in check for the newer models. My E46 weighed 3320 lbs. the next one, E90 325i weighed, IIRC a few pounds less! Then they got a bit loose and now it weighs 3500 lbs or so minimum.

A friend of mine who worked for BMW and later GM was hardcore car guy. He had mentioned to me that front wheel drive doesn’t really “work” on cars weighing more than 3500 lbs. :-)

He was the one who mentioned to me the 4500 lbs hypothetical limit for a rear drive car to stop behaving as sportily as it might, were it lighter. No matter how many band aids were applied.

He drove an E46 M3 CSL in Europe!! (He lived in U.K.) according to him, that was the best car money could buy in 2007-2008.

Ah, what stories he could tell.. he tried to get GM interested in his idea for a ‘horizontal shock’ to replace the sway bars, to reduce the roll induced by the sway bars on rough roads. Now I see the active roll bars mentioned in the Taycan features! Poor guy, couldn’t get GM to invest in his idea that time (2004, IIRC)

TeslaTap.com | 31 ottobre 2019

@BH - I guess that means those Porsche SUVs are really sports cars? Who knew! Maybe they will expand the "sports car" line to trucks and station wagons too. How about this Porsche boat: https://www.boats.com/power-boats/2008-donzi-28-fearless-porsche-6548802/ only $193K, so you can get it for under $200K and call it a sports car too!

Bighorn | 31 ottobre 2019

Now they’re saying the best quarter they could muster in 5 tries was 11.23s.
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/porsche-taycan-vs-tesla-model-s-drag-ra...

jimglas | 31 ottobre 2019

they must have tried really hard for that time .....

Mike83 | 31 ottobre 2019

I don't even click any of these nostalgic ICE rags just like I am not interested in horse buggies.

Darthamerica | 31 ottobre 2019

Bighorn if they aren't doing a roll out... Or depending on the skill of the driver. Could be a slow car too. They don't always all make the exact time you are advertised.

Bighorn | 31 ottobre 2019

11.23 is likely more than two standard deviations from the mean. No skill required to get repeatable results well within one standard deviation. It was in Range Mode, for pete’s sake.

Earl and Nagin ... | 31 ottobre 2019

How can Top Gear lie? They are a fictional genre.

Darthamerica | 31 ottobre 2019

Bighorn you're assuming that. Hoping really. But it doesn't matter. No doubt they will do it again to clear the confusion as will others. So this isn't the last time we see this.

Darthamerica | 31 ottobre 2019

And no, it wouldn't surprise me that Model S can be quicker than what Top Gear was able to get.

jordanrichard | 31 ottobre 2019

Darth, go to Dragtimes You Tube channel. As they stated there are numerous videos of actual owners taking their P100D w Ludicrous + to drag strips and all of them hit the 1/4 mile in 10.5, 10.6, 10.7. Also as they point out, they didn’t use launch control on the Tesla, but they did in the Tacan.

Bighorn | 31 ottobre 2019

Every quarter mile I could find posted on the interweb was 10.6 +/-0.1 sec. Their best run of 5 was 0.6 seconds slower. Something was seriously amiss.

carlk | 31 ottobre 2019

How Top Gear is handling this reminds me of the dieselgate. When you got caught for lying you just cover it up with (what you think) newer and better lies.

If they truly did not know the number they gave was seriously amiss they should just claim their last paycheck and leave this profession forever.

Mark K | 1 novembre 2019

Carlk- the similarities are indeed uncanny.

I’m shocked, shocked! VAG involved in institutionalized lying ... how can this be?

Top Gear are professionals! You know, as in the ... oldest profession.

And when VAG wanted to lie, without saying it themselves, they paid for the best love money can buy.

The problem with one-night-stands ... is the morning after.

Dawn is coming, Porsche. And the daylight will be stone-cold.

———————

No rational observer could digest Darth and Nuke’s litany, and conclude they are other than Porsche salesmen.

No 5,200lb sedan can rationally be called a sports car.

No competitor who’s winning a race, needs to cheat.

No superior safety car maker would decline, year-after, to be tested.

No honest manufacturer would design software to fool the public, while they poison them.

No business with any ethics, would pay billions in fines and jail time, instead of doing honest work.

That all these things cluster around one brand, is no coincidence. It’s willful.

At this point, any empathy we might have for the repentant underdog is long irredeemable.

To channel Dr. Seuss -

I am Taycan. Taycan I am.

You will not buy me at twice the price.

You will not buy me. I am not nice.

Not for 200K, not at the same price.

Not even for half. I am not nice.

—————————

Vote with your wallet, and your voice. Spread the word of this abuse to all your friends.

We, the society they sell to, are the only ones who feed them.

Don’t buy VAG products any more.

And don’t buy their stock.

The crime spree will end through the sobriety of starvation.

inconel | 1 novembre 2019

It's clear now that TG lied and re-used the old times of a Model S tested years ago. How pathetic!

RedShift | 1 novembre 2019

What’s more pathetic is how the lies are continuing to be defended by DA or Nuke to a lesser degree.

“It’s all okay folks, nothing to see here, move on, Taycan is the BEST performance EV you can buy today!”

neezer | 1 novembre 2019

LOL! They are effin clowns. I saw lesser clowns while trick or treating for several hours last night! Do they really have the nerve to say "yes, we used old data from an older (2-3 years) Model S" and not think that even the noob-iest car enthusiast interested in this space would realize:

1- It would prove they don't know or worse care, that there is a significant difference between a 2017 P100D+ and a Raven Performance
2 - they have NO CLUE how to handle the P100D (lol 1/4 mile runs nearing the mid 11s, yeah ok)
3 - The fact that they didn't MENTION this in their review shows bias, lack of professionalism, a high degree of pathetic "journalism", and that they were very content with just hiding this fact, and only been forced to show their hand because of the fire that lit on the interwebs from their obvious BS?

This discussion needs to end. They were caught with their pants down, and what was revealed is really sad (no pun intended lol, well maybe just a little). It is sad for Porsche in particular because I don't think they did anything wrong but they're going to be smeared by this. And it is of California-style wildfire proportions now on the interwebs.

carlk | 1 novembre 2019

Even if you want to give them the benefit of doubt that the original video was just a sloppy job and honest mistake the follow up clarification clearly proved their intention was always to lie for Porsche and fudge the test. I don't know if anyone still remembers Faraday Future conducted tests to show its car beat a Ferrari and Tesla? That was a two bit small player with survival its only goal. Doing the same says a lot of Porsche's mentality at this moment. I think it's running scarred.

RedShift | 1 novembre 2019

@neezer

Back in 2007-2008, even the Pulitzer Prize winning auto journalist, Dan Neil had egregiously gone against the Pontiac G6 in some review ignoring the fact that a V6 version was available with more power when comparing to a Japanese rival.

They all make mistakes, but you have to understand that the whole auto journalism industry works in a sort of semi-incestuous relationship with the car makers.

They advertise, they provide free food, drinks to visiting journalists. I’m not saying all of them turn into shills afterwards. Many do operate as such, though.

Here is an eye opening article by Alex Roy:

https://www.thedrive.com/opinion/1494/why-car-journalism-today-sucks

These folks at Top Gear had an axe to grind against BMW, irrationally, in the mid 90s and 2000s. They had nothing but praise for Jaguar though. They try to pass off whatever biased opinions they expound as ‘entertainment’. That seems to be the generally accepted line nowadays.

I never place too much credit on auto journalists. Drive the car yourself, then judge.

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