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Live virus immunization? Should we try it in US?

Live virus immunization? Should we try it in US?

Article in New Yorker about how C19 spreads in the human body. It also provides an interesting background on immunization dating to 1100 when Chinese doctors were successful with live virus immunization.

Based on the article, it would be interesting to have Dr. Fauci's view on if this should be trialed in US to see if it provides protection greater than the fatality rate.

"The Indian practitioners of tika had likely learned it from Arabic physicians, who had learned it from the Chinese. As early as 1100, medical healers in China had realized that those who survived smallpox did not catch the illness again (survivors of the disease were enlisted to take care of new victims), and inferred that the exposure of the body to an illness protected it from future instances of that illness. Chinese doctors would grind smallpox scabs into a powder and insufflate it into a child’s nostril with a long silver pipe."

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/04/06/how-does-the-coronavirus-b...

sabbia | 29 marzo 2020

I posted elsewhere that even peaking in April is no cause for joy. Peaking in August is no cause for joy. The tails of the curve will extend and the virus will still spread well after peaking. Who will want to tempt death by resuming normal behavior one, two, or say, three months after peaking (well maybe Dan Patrick will send his granny)?

So, Fish, I think your point is well taken. The only way out, it seems to me, is effective treatment and vaccine. It seems we should be trying a lot of things BUT IN A CONTROLLED WAY. Let's leave it to others as to what "controlled" means.

Even Trump's snake oil is being tried in New York. Of course we cannot try the kitchen sink, but your idea based on early treatment for smallpox may have merit. Correct me if I'm wrong....and we have a lot of opinions on these boards...but I think the *only way out* is treatment and immunization (vaccine). Palliation now to slow the spread but with focus on treatment and immunization. Slowing the spread will have the salubrious effect of saving some lives....but not enough.

FISHEV | 29 marzo 2020

@sabbia " I think your point is well taken. The only way out, it seems to me, is effective treatment and vaccine."

Not sure that was my point as there is no "treatment" and no vaccine on the horizon for a year. What is needed now is massive testing, everybody gets tested, get tested multiple times, we find those infected isolate them until they are non-infectious.

SCCRENDO | 29 marzo 2020

@@fish. I am sure they are working on both live and killed vaccines. Live vaccines give better immunity and increase herd immunity by spreading from person to person. But there lethality needs to be attenuated. Smallpox vaccine was simply cowpox that did not affect humans in a negative way providing good immunity. Polio has both a live and killed form. The live form is much better but occasionally can cause disease. And again by spreading it increases herd immunity. In the 1960s they mainly used live vaccines. But today with polio being relatively rare it is better to use killed vaccine because herd immunity is high and we do not want to risk the live vaccine in immunocompromised individuals

FISHEV | 29 marzo 2020

@SCCRENDO "Live vaccines give better immunity and increase herd immunity by spreading from person to person. But there lethality needs to be attenuated."

Live virus will have fatalities that is for sure. That's why we don't do it normally but it does work and the death rate is likely much lower. Can use on those least at risk so they are no longer able to get it or spread it.

sabbia | 29 marzo 2020

Testing will decrease the number of infections and will help to not overload the medical system. I was writing about the ultimate "end game" and I understand that that is a long way off. A sustained transmission rate, even with R naught less than 1 will kill too many people.

Heard today that they are also trying interleukin (I don't know which or if it is interleukin inhibitor. My point is there are lots of CONTROLLED therapies being tried. Until there is immunity and/or therapy we have to be doing reasonable experiments.

Orthopod | 29 marzo 2020

The spread of the Infection and subsequent immunization needs to continue in a controlled fashion to minimize number of deaths until everyone is immune from direct contact or vaccine.

andy.connor.e | 30 marzo 2020

If you would all like to try that out go for it. Im not signing up for experimental injections.

SCCRENDO | 30 marzo 2020

@andy. The good news is that you are not an anti-vaxer. But remember there are risks including getting the live virus

andy.connor.e | 30 marzo 2020

anti-whatever. Already had experimental injections once and it ruined me. I'll wait for them to be safe.

FISHEV | 30 marzo 2020

andy.connor.e | March 30, 2020 . Im not signing up for experimental injections."

Good thing we have heroic people wiling to do that so these vaccine and treatment possibilities can get to general population in time to help.

Good article here on how we make vaccines and timetables.

"The US keeps millions of chickens in secret farms to make flu vaccines. But their eggs won't work for coronavirus"

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/27/health/chicken-egg-flu-vaccine-intl-hnk-s...

ajkmsteph | 30 marzo 2020

LIVE VIRUS VACCINES DO NOT SPREAD BY HERD IMMUNITY. A LIVE VIRUS VACCINE IS ATTENTUATED TO NOT SPREAD MOST OF THE TIME ALTHOUGH IF YOU ARE INFECTED WITH A LIVE ATTENTUATED VIRUS YOU HAVE SUFFER A REAL INFECTION. THE KIDS UP THE NOSE FLU VACCINE IS LIVE. THE SMALLPOX VACCINE IS EFFECTIVELY ATRTENUATED AS IT IS A COXPOX VIRUS THAT DOESN'T SPREAD AMONST HUMANS USUALLY BUT GIVE THSI TO A PERSON WITH DEFECTIVE IMMUNE SYSTEM AND THEY CAN EVEN DIE. A BETTER SMALLPOX WAS BEING PLANNED BUT I DON'T THINK THEY EVER DEPLOYED.

THE VACCINE FOR C19 WILL PROBABLY BE A LIVE VIRUS OR AN RNA/DNA VACCINE WITH A VERY LOW RISK OF SPREAD (FOR THE VIRUS) AND ZERO RISK WITH DNA/RNA VACCINE.

A NEW FLU VACCINE JUST BEING APPROVED IS A RECOMBINANT VIRUS (GMO) WITH BETTER PROTECTION AND WHICH CAN BE QUICLY CHANGED TO A NEW FLU OR FLU MIX AND WHICH DOESN'T NEED TO BE MADE IN EGGS (SO MUCH QUICKER).

ajkmsteph | 30 marzo 2020

LIVE VIRUS VACCINES DO NOT SPREAD BY HERD IMMUNITY. A LIVE VIRUS VACCINE IS ATTENTUATED TO NOT SPREAD MOST OF THE TIME ALTHOUGH IF YOU ARE INFECTED WITH A LIVE ATTENTUATED VIRUS YOU HAVE SUFFER A REAL INFECTION. THE KIDS UP THE NOSE FLU VACCINE IS LIVE. THE SMALLPOX VACCINE IS EFFECTIVELY ATRTENUATED AS IT IS A COXPOX VIRUS THAT DOESN'T SPREAD AMONST HUMANS USUALLY BUT GIVE THSI TO A PERSON WITH DEFECTIVE IMMUNE SYSTEM AND THEY CAN EVEN DIE. A BETTER SMALLPOX WAS BEING PLANNED BUT I DON'T THINK THEY EVER DEPLOYED.

THE VACCINE FOR C19 WILL PROBABLY BE A LIVE VIRUS OR AN RNA/DNA VACCINE WITH A VERY LOW RISK OF SPREAD (FOR THE VIRUS) AND ZERO RISK WITH DNA/RNA VACCINE.

A NEW FLU VACCINE JUST BEING APPROVED IS A RECOMBINANT VIRUS (GMO) WITH BETTER PROTECTION AND WHICH CAN BE QUICLY CHANGED TO A NEW FLU OR FLU MIX AND WHICH DOESN'T NEED TO BE MADE IN EGGS (SO MUCH QUICKER).

ajkmsteph | 30 marzo 2020

IF THE LIVE VACCINE VIRUS IS A VIRUS THAT HAS BEEN APPROVED BEFORE AND THEY ARE JUST CHANGING A SEQUENCE TO MATCH C19 THE RISK IS NOT WORTH WORRYING ABOUT (NOT MY WORDS BUT BILL GATES WHO HAS SPENT MANY HOURS REVIEWING PROJECTS THAT ARE DOING JUST THAT). TEH ADDED SEQUENCE CAN'T GIVE YOU C19

ajkmsteph | 30 marzo 2020

IF THE LIVE VACCINE VIRUS IS A VIRUS THAT HAS BEEN APPROVED BEFORE AND THEY ARE JUST CHANGING A SEQUENCE TO MATCH C19 THE RISK IS NOT WORTH WORRYING ABOUT (NOT MY WORDS BUT BILL GATES WHO HAS SPENT MANY HOURS REVIEWING PROJECTS THAT ARE DOING JUST THAT). THE ADDED SEQUENCE CAN'T GIVE YOU C19

FISHEV | 30 marzo 2020

A suggestion @ajkmsteph would be a link to the source you are quoting.

jimglas | 30 marzo 2020

Hit your "CAPS LOCK" key please

SCCRENDO | 30 marzo 2020

Here is a summary of the difference between live and inactivated vaccines
https://www.salernomedical.com/differences-live-dead-vaccines/

SCCRENDO | 30 marzo 2020
andy.connor.e | 30 marzo 2020

the caps lock spam is the best.

sabbia | 31 marzo 2020

@SCC Interleukin 6 inhibitor sounds more promising than malaria drug. Wish we had data from more than 20 some odd patients. The known side effects seem tolerable.

runny or stuffy nose,
sinus pain,
sore throat,
headache,
dizziness,
itching,
mild stomach cramps, or.
urinary tract infection (UTI).

FISHEV | 31 marzo 2020

I always wondered about Interferon as anti-viral vs. Covid-19. I'm sure someone looked at it.

Vandendorpe | 31 marzo 2020

U of I VENTILATOR

Is there any way to mention to Elon that the University of Illinois at Urbana has come up with a simple, easily made, inexpensive, COVID-19 Ventilator? Here is a reference:

http://mechanical.illinois.edu/news/researchers-developing-emergency-ven...

I am expecting that FDA red tape, entrepreneurial inexperience, and presidential incompetence will delay the useful production of this until it will have no consequence. They need a Guardian Angel to get this to market and I wish that someone was Elon Musk.

Elon is already planning to make ventilators at the New York Solar Plant. If Elon could bang these things out at that plant and maymber even the Nevada factory - perhaps he can use it as a way to keep those places cranking other stuff.

By the way, call me .....

jimvan

Vandendorpe | 31 marzo 2020

Harold Ickes was the genius that both envisioned and implemented all of FDR’s Great Depression and World War2 work programs. As our country faces down the Covid-19 Plague, Americans are literally dying for another Ickes. Here is how to reacquire that kind of talent.

Begin by creating a temporary office of “Congressional Pandemic Response” (CPR) headed by the Surgeon General, Vice Admiral Jerome Adams. This new congressional office would:

1. Empower the Joint Chiefs of Staff to provide the battlefield supply logistics needed to rapidly distribute medical resources from wherever they are plentiful to wherever they are needed.
2. Develop and maintain all pertinent databases using military resources.
3. Direct state Governors to arrange to have their daily needs updated in CPR managed databases.
4. Remove any unnecessary delays in deploying lifesaving remedies like the inexpensive and easily made ventilator that was recently invented at the University of Illinois at Urbana.
5. Use the Defense Production Act and people like Elon Musk to expeditiously manufacture tens of thousands ventilators like the University of Illinois invention that needs a guiding angel.
6. Consolidate all pandemic expertise under the office of Congressional Pandemic Response.
7. Establish federally enforced US policies regarding all pandemic procedures and rules.

While these responsibilities are mostly already vested in the Surgeon General, Adams is no Ickes. The Ickes “guy” we need has to be identified and appointed by the Joint Chiefs of Staff in support of CPR. No organization in the world has better supply logistics support than our military. Trust them to do it.

What Admiral Adams brings is: direction; Surgeon General Authority; single point access to flag level command; a patriot’s passion; superior medical credentials; and his Trump/Pence appointment. I am suggesting that the bill that creates CPR should appoint Admiral Jones by name. This is a temporary congressional appointment of an individual, not an embroidering of Surgeon General Responsibilities.

The office of CPR will need to be argued into existence. Section 4 of the 25th Amendment can support that argument. Here are seven challenges to any notion that the Pandemic has been well managed:
1. Disbanding the White House Pandemic Response Team in 2018;
2. Ignoring all the findings of the federal “Crimson Contagion 2019” Rehearsal;
3. Rejecting the World Health Organization off-the-shelf COVID19 test kits in Jan 2020;
4. Prohibiting COVID19 tests of pneumonia patients in King County Washington in early Feb 2020;
5. Mixing healthy commercial air passengers with COVID19 Diamond Princess Patients on Feb 16th;
6. Squandering Chinas’ 3 months advanced warning, squandering our recent Ebola, MERS and SARS victories; and squandering American lives by not applying the Defense Production Act;
7. Treating state governors with contempt and out bidding them for medical resources.

The recent threat to fully reopen the US economy by Easter was narrowly averted. It is chilling to recall that the 1918 flue had 650,000 US deaths with 50M lost worldwide. Before bad becomes intolerable, I am proposing a medically focused, military operation to begin providing meaningful federally leadership.

jimvan

SCCRENDO | 31 marzo 2020

@Vandendorpe. Agreed.
@Sabbia. There is plenty else that they are trying. Lots of promising remedies fail. The experts need to judge what holds the most promise and test it appropriately. It’s great if something has mild symptoms. But if it is useless even the mildest side effects are not worth it

FISHEV | 31 marzo 2020

@Vandendorpe | March 31, 2020 am expecting that FDA red tape, entrepreneurial inexperience, and presidential incompetence will delay the useful production of this until it will have no consequence.

You should be pleasantly surprised then to know that Ford and GM and maybe Tesla are in process right now of building vents.

GM really stepped up and had a great plan ready to go but Trump's FDA appointee killed it. We only lost a few days there due to Trump admin incompetency as Trump was forced to reverse himself days later and give GM the go ahead.

You can look here to see the projected shortage. It varies by state.

https://covid19.healthdata.org/projections

"Inside G.M.’s Race to Build Ventilators, Before Trump’s Attack The automaker and its partner, Ventec, had spent more than a week figuring out how to make thousands of the lifesaving devices when the White House said G.M. was “wasting time.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/30/business/gm-ventilators-coronavirus-t...