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How many are going to pass on the Enhanced Autopilot and Full Service Driving

How many are going to pass on the Enhanced Autopilot and Full Service Driving

Hi Everyone,

I just wanted to get an idea of how many of you will pass on getting enhanced auto-pilot and full service driving. I have been conflicted on this since it was announced a week or so ago. At first I was thinking I was going to get the enhanced auto pilot, but now, I think I may pass on that and maybe get it later. Anyone else thinking the same way?

Thanks,

Kal

KP in NPT | 28 ottobre 2016

I love AP on our MS but it has its limitations. I wouldn't get a Tesla without it, however, because it is that amazing. And if EAP is even better, I'm in.

I would go for the self driving since I have a regular 185 mile commute. But I'll probably reassess that option, depending on where things are, when I configure. I can always add it later.

EaglesPDX | 28 ottobre 2016

AutoPilot is essential for key safety features like dynamic cruise control and lane keeping. By teasing out key safety features, Tesla is doing some trixie marketing.

The Autonomous driving few will pay for as it serves no real purpose. People who have the money to buy more options and move themselves up in the delivery line will be the main purchasers. Autonomous driving is illegal in CA and will be illegal in many more states fairly soon so there no way to even use it.

KP in NPT | 28 ottobre 2016

Are Dynamic cruise control and lane keeping standard on the Bolt?

Neither are a safety feature. They aren't a safety feature in any car currently produced, are they, Eagles?

Autonomous driving is illegal NOW. Everywhere as far as I know. That may not be the case long after the Model 3 is announced. You aren't speaking to idiots here, Eagles.

akgolf | 28 ottobre 2016

And what kind of marketing is Chevy doing with the Dolt?

Tesla is including some basic safety features in the base Model 3, all of the safety features on the Dolt are an optional upgrade! Chevy putting it to their customers again, no wonder they needed a bail out.

I'll get AP, but may wait on enhanced.

bobinseattle | 28 ottobre 2016

I'll pass on this one. I have a 4 mile commute, at 3 A.M.. I am the only car out there. I only go 30 MPH.

Bob in Seattle

EaglesPDX | 28 ottobre 2016

@mp1156 "Neither [dynamic cruise and lane keeping] are a safety feature."

Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, iihs.org, considers them safety features based on their data of crashes and crash testing. Car mfg's marketing them (correctly) as safety features.

This is especially true if the car's auto braking only lessens crashes at 12 and 25 mph vs. preventing them. You can look at the data on that at iihs.org and see how many cars who offer auto braking have less than Superior systems that will only lessen the impact of a crash vs. prevent it. The same car using dynamic cruise would not crash at all.

KP in NPT | 28 ottobre 2016

Name a single automaker that includes TACC or lane keeping as a standard safety feature.

akgolf | 28 ottobre 2016

And still expensive options on the Dolt.

EaglesPDX | 28 ottobre 2016

@mp1156 "Name a single automaker that includes TACC or lane keeping as a standard safety feature."

You could try Google to answer your question.

The question here is that in order to get those features people would need to order the $5,000 AutoPilot package. Tesla likely broke them out as a marketing tool since many may not care about autonomous driving but would want the safety features of dynamic cruise and lane keeping.

This is fairly typical in auto pricing, embed key features in a basket of options to get customers to pay for features they don't want, in this case autonomous driving, to get basic features like dynamic cruise and lane keeping.

akgolf | 28 ottobre 2016

And the Dolt will run 42K-55K to get any safety features.

KP in NPT | 28 ottobre 2016

I am asking who offers them STANDARD, without an additional cost as an option. Googling did not show me a single automaker that offers them standard features.. Yet you are expecting Tesla will.

So I ask you again. What automaker includes these "basic features" like dynamic cruise and lane keeping as standard features?

EaglesPDX | 28 ottobre 2016

@mp1156 "I am asking who offers them STANDARD, without an additional cost as an option. Googling did not show me a single automaker that offers them standard features.. Yet you are expecting Tesla will."

Not at all. I'm noting that Tesla, like all other car mfgs. cleverly bundles popular and functional features like dynamic cruise and lane keeping with other high cost not so popular or functional features (in Tesla's case Autonomous driving) in order to be able to charge more money, make more profits.

Especially true in Tesla's case since it is building them into the cars, taking on the cost upfront, so it must figure out ways to get people to pay for it. The option bundles are very effective way of doing that.

akgolf | 28 ottobre 2016

Except Tesla cleverly includes some basic safety features for free, the same ones that's cost extra money on a Dolt.

KP in NPT | 28 ottobre 2016

NO. You are arguing that Tesla is somehow screwing people by not offering TACC and lane keeping as standard features. I'm asking you what automaker DOES do that.

And since you are not a Tesla owner, and have probably never driven a Tesla with AP for any amount of time if at all, I beg to differ that TACC and lane keeping are bundled with "not so popular" AP (or soon, EAP) as that option is quite popular with the Model S. It remains to be seen if it will be as popular with the Model 3 - and it also remains to be seen what safety features will be standard and what won't with the Model 3. But you don't let that get in the way of your pronouncements.

akgolf | 28 ottobre 2016

I think it's pretty clear on Tesla's AP page that at least four safety features are included free.

It remains to be seen if TACC is included in the base as one person mentioned a Tesla employee told him, but it wouldn't surprise me.

We know from Chevy's website that the Dolt doesn't include any safety features without buying an option and you need to buy the more expensive trim to get TACC, lane keeping.....

EaglesPDX | 28 ottobre 2016

@mp1156 "You are arguing that Tesla is somehow screwing people by not offering TACC and lane keeping as standard features."

Your problem is that I never said that. What I have said is that Tesla is like all other car mfgs in bundling options so people are forced to buy options they don't need or want (Autonomous driving) in order to get key safety and functionality items like dynamic cruise and lane keeping.

It's a marketing tool that works and Tesla uses it. Doesn't make Tesla evil but it does seem to bother the faithful who can't accept Tesla being a trixie Hobbit.

KP in NPT | 28 ottobre 2016

Oh, Jsimpsonalaska, you mean they bundle it with "not so functional features?"

Whatever those are, they're notes good as AP - or EAP. that's for sure.

KP in NPT | 28 ottobre 2016

They're NOT AS good - autocorrect.

akgolf | 28 ottobre 2016

@mp1156 - Eagles just isn't ready for the way Tesla is doing business. To ingrained with the shoddy way Chevy treats their customers and is frantically trying to convince anyone that Tesla is in the same mode by these ludicrous attacks. Pretty pathetic.

I'll still be shocked to see how many people will shell out over 50K for the Dolt. I just don't see it happening.

EaglesPDX | 28 ottobre 2016

@mp1156 "Eagles just isn't ready for the way Tesla is doing business."

Bundling options to make more money and profits is standard OP for car companies so not sure why you would expect Tesla to not employ it.

KP in NPT | 28 ottobre 2016

I'm not the one who said that. But anyway....

I have no issue with Tesla bundling options to make money.

akgolf | 28 ottobre 2016

I don't have an issue with bundling either, although with most traditional dealers you have no choice of options unlike Tesla. You can create a custom vehicle based on your needs or wants, traditional dealers you pretty much choose from what's on the lot or coming in.

Plus you have to go through all of the items they try to push on you, paint protection......

You have none of that with Tesla.

EaglesPDX | 28 ottobre 2016

@mp1156 "I have no issue with Tesla bundling options to make money."

It's not so much that Tesla does the option bundling it's that it does it to sell Autonomous driving at the expense of selling affordable EV's.

Tesla is adding $5,000 in price, $6,000 in cost to the "every man's EV" to promote autonomous driving. That's fine for a TS and TX but for the working man's EV, just build in the basic 21st century safety features, autobraking, dynamic cruise, lane keeping, blind side and cross track warning. OK sell it as a $1,500 option (Subaru) but FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS?

The T3 is already a stretch for many buyers looking to do the right thing on the environment and Tesla puts it out of reach for many to promote something that is outside of Tesla's missions statement of promoting sustainable transportation.

A FWD, 250 mile range, full safeties T3 at $40K would be an everyman's EV.

akgolf | 28 ottobre 2016

Tesla isn't adding anything to the buyers cost of the vehicle unless the buyer wants those options.

Options that aren't available on the Dolt and that's what bugs Eagles. Going to make it harder to justify 55K for a Dolt when you can get a Model 3 for less than that with AP and EAP. F

akgolf | 28 ottobre 2016

To bad A 250 mile, FWD vehicle with full safety features isn't available anywhere!

EaglesPDX | 28 ottobre 2016

@jsimpsonalaska "To bad A 250 mile, FWD vehicle with full safety features isn't available anywhere!"

Lots of them but in EV's only Bolt comes close at $42K.

akgolf | 28 ottobre 2016

No it doesn't.

To get the full set of safety features you need the higher trim and then purchase that cleverly packaged bundle.

Closer to 55K.

KP in NPT | 28 ottobre 2016

@Eagles - "It's not so much that Tesla does the option bundling it's that it does it to sell Autonomous driving at the expense of selling affordable EV's."

As Tesla has said, Safety featured are standard. We do not know specifically what features that includes, and we disagree what should be standard and what is an unrealistic expectation. No one is forcing anyone to get AP.

Tesla has specifically decoupled autopilot from autonomous driving on the Model S, as you well know, Eagles. There is no reason to believe they will so that differently with the model 3. So there does that argument.

KP in NPT | 28 ottobre 2016

"Your problem is that I never said that."
I call BS. You have stated repeatedly that TACC and lane keeping are safety features that tesla is forcing people to pay extra for. I contend no automaker offers them standard so why should you or anyone else expect tesla would.

akgolf | 28 ottobre 2016

Pretty irresponsible of a Chevy not to include any safety features on a base Dolt. You would think after all of the bad safety issues they've had in the past they would have done this one right.

KP in NPT | 28 ottobre 2016

His hypocrisy is pretty stunning!

jamilworm | 28 ottobre 2016

Back to the original question, I am not sure what I'll get. My configuration is going to be pretty close to the base model. The regular autopilot didn't appeal to me much, because I have an easy commute in very light traffic. I'd rather retain control and steer around slow traffic than have autopilot on and get stuck behind a slow car. However the EAP is supposed to include automatic lane changing and auto-freeway exits. That makes it a lot more enticing to me, but of course the cost is significant too. So I am on the fence, I'll probably have to crunch some numbers when it comes time to configure and see how much that option would affect my monthly payments (I'll finance).

I am almost certain that I won't pay upfront for the self-driving. Since there is no guarantee when it will even be available, I'd regret if 6 years later it is still illegal and my money was just in Tesla's pocket instead of my own.

Calibrotha2000 | 29 ottobre 2016

I just came home from a night out at 2am and ALL I COULD THINK OF WAS "omg I wish I had autopilot right now". To never have to stress about 2am drives home again...yep GIVE IT TO ME!!! I don't need self driving but autopilot is a 100% MUST

Ccarmac1 | 29 ottobre 2016

agree with @jamilworm

Price is waaayyy to high, I do too drive maybe around 5 miles from work.

SoFlaModel3 | 29 ottobre 2016

For me it may be a temporary pass. Since the car comes with the hardware and the option can be enabled after delivery there may be other options I go for within my planned budget and add that later.

I will never place my car in the fleet for ride sharing, so it would be purely for me. While I want it, it will come down to cost. I want to be in the $45k range and I will definitely want a few options, so AP/EAP on day 1 may not work...

Pkalhan | 29 ottobre 2016

@Eagles "Tesla is adding $5,000 in price, $6,000 in cost to the "every man's EV" to promote autonomous driving. That's fine for a TS and TX but for the working man's EV, just build in the basic 21st century safety features, autobraking, dynamic cruise, lane keeping, blind side and cross track warning. OK sell it as a $1,500 option (Subaru) but FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS?"

I can't believe I'm actually saying this, but I kind of agree with Eagles on this one. I mean, shoot, when Tesla raised the price from $2500 to $3000, I had a small frowny face, but from $3000 to $5000...that is kind of a punch in the "no no spot" a direct shot at the "one eyed willie worm", lol. I will probably get the Enhanced Autopilot, but it may be a tough pill to swallow.

I know people say we don't know what the pricing will be, but I am thinking the software options will be the same for all cars across the board, they tangible/hardware options may be priced differently,

gopal001 | 29 ottobre 2016

i'm all in.. fully loaded.. I just have to sell as little of my tesla stock to buy my model 3. With 600 miles of PA Turnpike commute each week, I could get used to the auto pilot. Can't wait to drive a real car.. (I do love my infiniti G35x though)..

jamilworm | 29 ottobre 2016

@Pkalhan, the cost may be $5000, but the hardware cost to Tesla is WAY lower than that. A large chunk of the cost to the customer is to pay for the engineering effort and continuous software support for the system. The hardware is probably a tiny part of the cost. I wouldn't be surprised if the hardware only adds under $500 to the cost of the car, and Tesla probably wouldn't mark up that cost on models that didn't buy the option. I'd happily pay an extra $500 up front in exchange for the ability to easily enable AP or self driving later on. Heck, Tesla might not even pass that cost along at all in the base model.

Full disclosure, I pulled that $500 number out of thin air, I don't have any reference to justify it. But in the quantities Tesla is buying I can't imagine 6 cameras and a radar costing that much. Also they will save some money by simplifying the manufacturing process by eliminating the extra variable.

EaglesPDX | 29 ottobre 2016

@jamilworm "Full disclosure, I pulled that $500 number out of thin air,"

Very thin air. We know Tesla makes a 24% gross profit on the cars so the $8,000 price for AutoPilot/Autonomous could fairly be said to be costing Tesla $6,000 in costs. These costs are direct product costs. You see the R&D costs as a separate line item AFTER the actual product costs, AFTER the 24% GP.

akgolf | 29 ottobre 2016

@jamilworm - No thinner than Eagles air! Eagles is next to the friggin space station!

JHB10 | 29 ottobre 2016

On the topic:
I will definitely be getting self drive - not necessarily order time, but probably soon after.

Off the topic as everyone else:
The bolt is no Tesla competitor, so not worth talking about it.
Telsa competitors for the 3 is probably Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Lexus etc.
A person who buys a Bolt for the same price as a Tesla 3 is smoking something strong...

EaglesPDX | 29 ottobre 2016

@jsimpsonalaska "No thinner than Eagles air! Eagles is next to the friggin space station!"

As "thin" as the Tesla financial statements which show 24% profit on the cost of production of the vehicles. This would include the cost for equipment on braking system, steering system, detection and tracking systems, wiring in the car and electronics.

Someone thought the R&D costs were in that calc but according to Tesla's financial statement they are separate line item.

If Tesla is charging $8,000 for the AutoPilot and Autonomous and making 24% profit on them then $6,000 for the production costs is a fair estimate.

Tesla is adding this cost to EVERY car and counting on people ordering the option to recoup the cost. Likely why the cost of AutoPilot has jumped from $3,000 to $5,000 as the autonomous driving equipment is added to the car.

For the everyman's EV, Tesla should have gone the other way, cut the AutoPilot to the essentials (auto braking, dynamic cruise, lane keeping, blind side/cross track warning), eliminated the autonmous equipment and reduced the AutoPilot to $2,000 with a cost of equipment at $1,500. (Subaru's top rated system sells for $1,500). That would have cut the production cost of the vehicle by $4,500.

akgolf | 29 ottobre 2016

And it's still a better deal than the Dolt after all of these mistakes by Tesla(according to you), safer than the Dolt and cheaper than the Dolt to boot!

What's the deal with GM,why can't they make a cheaper, more appealing and safer car for less money than some company that just started making cars?

KP in NPT | 29 ottobre 2016

And why can't their 35K EV that doesn't come with supercharging or safety features standard look better?

akgolf | 29 ottobre 2016

I guess they don't want to sell many.

bmalloy0 | 29 ottobre 2016

I want, but I will be passing on them when I configure. I'm gonna be stretching my finances thin with the base as is.

jamilworm | 29 ottobre 2016

@Eagles, Tesla might show 24% profit, but that is overall, it doesn't mean that every single option is priced according to that structure. It is very possible, even likely that the base models will make lower margins and the premium options will have a higher markup. It could all average out to 24% profit but that doesn't mean it applies to each separate piece of hardware.

I think it's likely that the cost of the AP hardware is very low, and Tesla would add that to the price of non-AP cars at cost or below cost. And then they'd make very large profit (relative to hardware cost) on vehicles equipped with AP software. In a way the people who buy AP are subsidizing the hardware in non-AP cars.

EaglesPDX | 29 ottobre 2016

@jamilworm "Tesla might show 24% profit, but that is overall."

No. That is just the ratio of cost of production and sales revenue. Overall, counting R&D etc Tesla lost money. That's why the 24% differential between car cost and price is a good guide for costs of the options. Some think that the T3 gross profits will be much thinner so the costs a bit higher ratio but using the current high profit ratio which makes the costs seem as low as possible is a good fact based cost estimator.

jamilworm | 29 ottobre 2016

@Eagles, when I said overall I meant for all sales of all configurations. I still stand by the assertion that the base car will have a lower margin and the upgrade options will have much higher margin. And in the end it could average out to 24%.

EaglesPDX | 29 ottobre 2016

@jamilworm " I still stand by the assertion that the base car will have a lower margin and the upgrade options will have much higher margin."

Possibly but that is pretty much a wash. All the financial and auto production expectations are that the margin for the T3 will be much lower as you note. Some have speculated that the selling price of the options will be lower for the T3, you speculate they will be the same but produce a higher gross margin.

Assuming your case for T3 production profit, much lower margin on the car base of $35K and much higher profit on the options $27,000 if every option ordered, it's going to even out with a case to be made that since they are losing margin on $35K and gaining margin on $27K, the overall margin will be lower than current 24% per car.

That would raise the cost of adding the options. In the case of the $8,000 for Autopilot and Autonomous, raise the production cost estimate over the current best estimate of $6,000.

Either way, you end up with an order of magnitude production cost of $6,000 for Autopilot and Autonomous.

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