I've been ICEed in DC

I've been ICEed in DC

I usually park my car in a DC parking lot with a lot of EV charging station however the lot fills up pretty quickly by 10AM. Yesterday I had the misfortune to park my "ICE" vehicle (HONDA ACCORD HYBRID 2015) in a EV spot due to a full lot. Now the spot has a marker with a leaf with a plug coming out it's a** that I assume means EV parking. I get to my car and notice a note that says please don't park on an EV spot and a separate note that says "I've been ICEed: with definition". So here's the deal you arrogant pricks (you know who you are), why do you have a car with a range of over 200 miles if you don't charge your car at home? Having a charging spot in a busy parking lot is a luxury, not a right. I pay $3300 a year for monthly parking and I expect a hassle free parking experience. I am pretty sure it's a Tesla owner because that spot is usually filled with a Tesla vehicle. This type of behavior makes Tesla owners as a whole look elitist and will hurt EV roll-out as a whole. There is enough going against EV in Virginia and many other backward states don't make it worse.

PS: I just brought a Model S 60D with version 2.0 autopilot hardware (January 2017 delivery) but I'm not an arrogant prick so I won't get angry at other drivers for taking up a parking spot.

DTsea | 16 novembre 2016

how do you know it wasnt a leaf or somebody on a trip?

you dont seem like a very nice person.

SamO | 16 novembre 2016

Let me set you straight: You are the scum bag in this situation. Charging spots are for cars that are actively charging only.

Rocky_H | 16 novembre 2016

Wow, dude with a gas car blocks a charging spot, gets called out on his bad behavior, and then furiously lectures the electric car community for holding him accountable.

In other news, local man berates passerby who he punched for hurting his knuckles.

shank15217 | 16 novembre 2016

There is no way to tell or enforce that an EV vehicle is charging in a charging spot. It just becomes a reserved parking spot for EV vehicle owners. Thanks for proving my point, which is EV vehicle owners expect special treatment.

starcrusader | 16 novembre 2016

You proved a point, just not the one you thought you'd made.

dyefrog | 16 novembre 2016

'There is no way to tell or enforce that an EV vehicle is charging in a charging spot."
That's not true. Most EV's have an external visual cue that either blinks, changes color, etc. that signals the charging status.

Wzembrodt | 16 novembre 2016

I'll alert the handicap that you maybe parking in their spot as well. We were we all supposed to be impressed by how much you pay in parking? I had a sandwich today and it cost $13 dollars since we are sharing.

shank15217 | 16 novembre 2016

DTsae: It wasn't a leaf, its the same Tesla that parks there most other times but came late that day so didn't get a spot, parks there the entire day plugged in, I doubt its charging that entire time. A downtown commuter garage wouldn't be a place to charge your car unless you want to pay extra to park there in the first place.

SamO: No way to enforce, its a private paid garage, not a public EV spot, its just a courtesy which most people including me try to give.

Rocky_H: Its a full garage and it was the last spot left. I came first so tough luck to the guy who came later, he's not paying more and also not reserving that spot.

Starcrusader: Yea ok, thanks for deriding me for pointing out an issue that will be more and more common in 2017 and beyond, and screw personal responsibility right?

shank15217 | 16 novembre 2016

Wzembrodt : So a charging spot = handicap spot now ?

shank15217 | 16 novembre 2016

dyefrog: And if it isn't what do you do? A commuter garage is for people that go to work, they wouldn't be checking in on their cars during that time.

holidayday | 16 novembre 2016

Shank, why did you post this here? Of course the EV community will call you out for taking a parking spot reserved for EV's.
How about talking to the owner of the garage to see what you should do when the only parking spot is an EV spot? Let us know what they say.

shank15217 | 16 novembre 2016

holidayday: I posted this here precisely because its time to rethink this issue. The garage owner doesn't care, they get the money either way. If the garage gets totally filled up the owner starts double parking cars using a valet system. I just want to make it clear that ultimately as Tesla owners with cars that have 200+ mile range and a network of free chargers its hard to make a case that you're inconvenienced by a non EV vehicle taking up charging spot.

KP in NPT | 16 novembre 2016

You do not know the situation of that Tesla owner. He might not have home charging. Garage parking might be his charging option, which is why he chose that garage to pay monthly fees for.

Anyway come back after you've been ICE'd with your new 60D a few times. It won't take long since it happens all the time.

shank15217 | 16 novembre 2016

One of the first requirements of owning a EV vehicle is that you have a reliable charging spot. I'm sure I'll be ICE'ed all the time, but this is why I'm buying a Tesla and not a Leaf. I'll charge my vehicle at home every night as should any responsible EV owner. The commuter garage has reserved spots you can pay for, the Tesla owner might want to look into that or possibly come early, like before 9AM when there are over 15 EV spots free regularly.

KP in NPT | 16 novembre 2016

Um, no that is not one of the first requirements. EM recognizes many people in urban areas do not have access to home charging - in that case he suggests garage charging, destination charging, or supercharging. His mission is sustainable transport - that is for all people. Not just those with home charging.

I have a 70D and home charging. But I have still been ICEd waiting to charge when I'm on road trips. I think your perspective will change once you rely on charging instead of filling up with gas. Whether you have home charging or not.

shank15217 | 16 novembre 2016

There is a practicality and lifestyle change issue here. It is true that home charging isn't available for everyone, you're right but it just means the EV owner has to be much more careful. Maybe for urban environments you should consider a hybrid plugin instead of an EV like the new Prius Prime or the Chevy Volt. If I didn't believe in Elon's message I wouldn't be buying this car but charging and parking spots are going to become a serious issue in the next year or two as the number of EV vehicles skyrocket especially in urban areas. Punishing ICE owners is not the way to bring EV into the mainstream which by the DC already does with a $100 fine for public EV spots.

KP in NPT | 16 novembre 2016

Well it's definitely a chicken before the egg thing. Demand for public charging will follow demand. Demand for building codes (like, for public parking places) to require charging is slowly following demand (in certain areas.) Demand for HOVs, apt. buildings etc offering charging to tenants will follow demand. Fines for ICEing charging spots (or parking and EV while not charging) is happening, following demand. This is part of the growing pains for this new technology.

The issue with ICE owners in most of these cases is education. I admit I don't have the answers for how best to achieve that. Most if not all BEV drivers equate ICEing to BEV drivers choosing to park at a gas pump - but worse since they are less plentiful. There are many reasons for ICEing - ignorance, mostly, but also selfishness (if it's a closer spot) or even just a middle finger to BEV drivers.

The bottom line is more charging is needed, it needs to keep up with demand so that occasional ICEing doesn't mean you are totally unable to charge when needed. But also ICEing needs to be a fineable offense, like a parking ticket - otherwise there is no deterrent. Leaving notes, whether polite or not, seems to piss people off.

KP in NPT | 16 novembre 2016

Sorry that demand for public charging didn't make sense. YKWIM.


holidayday | 16 novembre 2016

shank: "Punishing ICE owners is not the way to bring EV into the mainstream which by the DC already does with a $100 fine for public EV spots"

Punishing ICE owners is to teach ICE owners NOT TO PARK IN AN EV SPACE.
If you have a gas car, and the last spot is an EV spot, then find another deck that has available spots. You are the one who ran late and didn't get a spot. Don't whine about getting a note when you clearly parked a non-EV in an EV spot.
You have no idea what the charging situation is for the person parking in an EV spot. Don't assume. You are clearly in the wrong and deserve the thrashing you are getting (and the note from the EV owner.)

Earl and Nagin ... | 16 novembre 2016

I fully understand your position and can see how you've reached your opinion.
I believe it comes down to: What kind of person do you want to be?
Having been driving EVs for over 15 years and been a Tesla owner for over 10 years (8 years with one in my possession) I see your position with your gas guzzler being about 100% wrong. Someone invested a lot of money bringing electricity and a destination EVSE into that parking space and you stranded that asset, bringing zero value to it.
Your position with Tesla and other EV owners is definitely in a gray area: Personally, I see the governance of the issue belongs purely to the garage owner however, since most garage owners are clueless to the subtleties of EV charging usage, the EV community has a right to weigh in with opinions on what is correct etiquette. Whether the "same Tesla that parks there most other times" is right or wrong from an etiquette perspective depends completely on the situation. If he/she:
- just parks there because it is usually available when other spaces aren't even though there are other EVs who may need to share the space for charging, then it is (as I explained to a Model S driver at LAX who asked me if it was ok to park at one of the insufficiently many EV chargers that happened to be convenient to him even though he didn't have his J1772 adapter with him) 'poor form' and 'not too cool' (he parked elsewhere).
- just parks there because there aren't enough parking spaces in the garage but knows that there aren't other EVs who need the space, then it is right. After all, with a shortage of space in the garage, you'd have even less spaces to park your beloved HCH.
- doesn't have a reasonable option to charge at home so pays to park in this lot because this lot has enough destination chargers to be able to count on being able to charge, then it is right. This person is certainly more responsible IMHO than those who live in apartments and suggest that it is somebody else's responsibility to provide them with EV charging capability which they feel entitled to.
- parks there all day even though fully charged after maybe only an hour or so, then this is in a very gray area and many people have different opinions on it. Having to move an EV during the day is a huge hassle, making EV ownership a drag. I lean toward saying that a parking space with a destination EV charger is a parking space and should be used as a parking space where you can park while at your destination. Others believe that you should move after you're done. Of course, if there are more EV drivers who need to charge then it is decent of EV drivers to move in order to help their fellow EV drivers. This means you are either right or wrong, decent or apathetic. Feel free to decide what kind of person you wish to be.
Quantifying right versus wrong about Teslas using the space all day, I'd say they are about 90% right and only a slight 10% wrong, while being completely unenforceable and unable for us to know the circumstances. That makes you mostly wrong but again, its your choice about what kind of person you wish to be and how much effort you wish to expend to be that way.

shank15217 | 16 novembre 2016

Negative reinforcement does not work in a lot of situations. Attitude like this ultimately comes back to bite the EV vehicle owners by the way of legislation that increases taxes and/or limits infrastructure growth.

KP in NPT | 16 novembre 2016

So what would you suggest, @shank?

SCCRENDO | 16 novembre 2016

As has been noted by many here the EV spot is reserved for EV owners charging. You are note the EV police, you are not impacted by this and it is in fact none of your business who parks there. Simply you are not entitled to park there because you do not have an EV and are not charging. When the time comes that you have a 60D and need to charge for whatever reason then you are entitled to that spot. If you have been ICED either by some schmuck in a Honda who pays $3000 a month for his parking or a non charging EV then you take action. If you have a 60D and don't need to charge don't hog a charging spot.

An example. I was giving a presentation at Fort Irwin and met someone at the Barstow supercharger as we drove together to the meeting in his car. I needed 15-20 mins charge but I knew I would be away a few hours. Even though there were only 2 cars charging with 12 slots I parked in a regular slot so I would not hog a slot. When I returned I mobed to a charging spot, charged for 20 minutes while I had a cup of coffee

My 2c

SCCRENDO | 16 novembre 2016

Many typos above. Too bad

Octagondd | 16 novembre 2016

You noted that the lot double parks when the lot gets full. Maybe you should have valeted the car? You were very lucky in this situation not to get KEY'd or TOWed. All you got was NOTed by someone who may have needed to charge their car.

Silver2K | 16 novembre 2016

Fix those typos @scc! UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR!

OK I'm just kidding.

Shank, it "an EV" not "a EV". The guy that wrote the note had it right and you should have copied the note.

The fact that you parked in "an" EV spot made you an automatic dick. Anything you said after that we just summoned to "you're an asshole"

Silver2K | 16 novembre 2016

Ps: get to work on time like the others that found a proper spot asshole.

Have a nice day

Silver2K | 16 novembre 2016


KP in NPT | 16 novembre 2016

Silver is frisky tonight!

Silver2K | 16 novembre 2016

He came in here like gangbusters and expected us to say "oh I'm so sorry that happened to you"

codyb12889 | 16 novembre 2016


You are complaining that someone called you out for doing something that cities and states are passing laws against you doing.

Calling someone an elitist and then saying you are above basic decorum because of what you pay is just plain hilarious.

Rocky_H | 16 novembre 2016

Right, this would be very much like if the spot were marked for purple cars only, and he parked there anyway with a non-purple car. He is criticizing people who are pointing out that he doesn't belong there, which is stupid. If you have a problem, take it up with the owners of the garage and tell them that you don't think they should have a purple-only parking space.

Rocky_H | 16 novembre 2016

But, but...he said he's not an arrogant prick while acting like one. It's so confusing.

KP in NPT | 16 novembre 2016

I might also add, the BEV you ICEd paid for parking there too.....maybe more since they use the plug.

Mel. | 16 novembre 2016

Earl and Nagin,
Great post. Thanks for being here

grega | 16 novembre 2016

There is a problem no-one has mentioned.

A garage owner decides to put in 5 EV spots, because he knows he has 5-10 regular EV customers, on occasions 15. He'll mark it as EV only, and 5 will get lucky with a spot. The ICEs can park normally. Great for some of the EV customers, works for everyone else too.

Now he gets complaints from EV drivers, who picked the station because it lists EV spots. So he thinks.... I'll build for the future - 20 spots will have chargers. But his car park is often full, and he wants to use all the spots. EV owners will complain if there aren't enough EV spots, ICE owners will complain if he's full and there are still EV spots) or they see a "Full! Except for EVs" sign out the front. EV owners will complain if he lets ICE cars park in the "future" EV spots.

I assume that any garage doesn't intend that their EV spots prevent a car from parking at all. And we all want garages to put more EV chargers in than needed, ideally.

Personally, I think they probably have to charge a few dollars more for an EV spot - whether you're a charging EV, a fully charged EV, an EV that doesn't NEED to charge, or an ICEV. Not sure what the answer is.

So I guess I agree with Shank that if he's tried to get any other space and none are available, it's logical to use the space. It's also logical that the EV owner has no idea that he genuinely tried to get a non-charger space. We do know that the EV owner who misses out must realise he might miss out on any given day, though we don't know his full story... just as we can't mind read the ICEV owner's story to know if he did the right thing.

Silver2K | 16 novembre 2016


Great post. Thanks for trolling

SCCRENDO | 16 novembre 2016

@grega. The rest of the thread disagree. OP showed up without an EV. That spot is not for him. As would the handicap spot not be for him unless he has a placard.

grega | 16 novembre 2016

@sccrendo I see the rest disagree. I'm just wondering what most people would prefer in a private garage
a) not enough EV spots, but exclusive to EVs.
b) many EV spots, but not exclusive to EVs.

Because I'd like to see (b).

Of course I'd much rather see
c) many EV spots, exclusive to EVs, with ICEV drivers thinking "I really have to sell this thing if I want to park in the city".

Silver2K | 16 novembre 2016

no one will invest in b. The world is not ready for that yet.

grega | 16 novembre 2016

And yet that's the class of situation he ran into. There were more EV spots than needed, and no more ICEV spots. On this day the garage had too many chargers.


Silver2K | 16 novembre 2016


what seems to be forgotten is that EV spots are apps such as plugshare and what that means is at any given moment an EV may be looking for that spot to charge. Do you park at a gas pump, because the gas station is not busy? you think gas stations need 20 spots? hell not! 19 is enough! go park there..

grega | 16 novembre 2016

Certainly while the cost of putting in a charging point is high you want to take the best advantage of it (restrict spot to EVs), also while charging points are rare.

That's not simply all EVs though, but people who don't need to charge (very big batteries, or fully charged) should also be blocked, as there are others looking for spots to charge. We don't want people parking in a gas station spot once their tank is full either, or filling up so slowly just to keep the parking spot in a gas station. The analogy needs to be expanded if you are looking at fairness.

However, in agreement with not parking in the EV parking space, I would say that if the garage already has a plan for handling more cars than spaces, then activating that one car early wouldn't have made much difference to the garage - and would be the best idea. If he'd arrived 5 minutes later a different ICEV would have taken that EV spot, and he would have gone to the attendant to start the valet option.

Remember that all I've said is that if a car park can't hold anyone else, and the last space has an EV charger (and well done to everyone if they've left that spot to last by the way, that indicates things are working well!), then it makes sense to the garage to let whatever car arrives to take that last spot particularly if they've already paid. Unless they make more on that charging spot and know they'll have a customer shortly. I'm talking about a commercial garage. And I agree that a subsequent EV driver would be disappointed.

shank15217 | 16 novembre 2016


I have a series of suggestion that can be / and probably are in implementation around the country regarding EV., separated into 2 categories.

Category A: Policy and Planning

1. Community charging initiatives for people who live in urban centers. HOAs and condo fees should have some budget set aside to invest in EV spots in planned communities and residential garages. Most planned communities including mine have no money set aside for EV charging stations. These could be free for the residents or more realistically commercial charging spots for residents/visitors to use but maintained by the operator. It’s much less likely you will get ICEed by you neighbor than a stranger in a commuter garage.

2. Public garages should have gated areas set aside for EV charging stations. Users can open those gates using their “chargepoint cards” or something similar. One of the issues with my garage is that the 20+ charging stations are sprinkled over 3 levels with restricted access to certain levels during parts of the day. They could have planned it so that clusters of charging stations is corner-ed off. They do that with their ZIPCAR parking spots already.

Category B: Technical Solutions

1. Autonomous mode can be used to seek charging spots in a garage or a lot where a TESLA can seek out a EV charge station every so often and try to park there. The charging station also needs to be able to summon a TESLA to a charging spot. A combination of automation and basic queuing theory should give you the car that charges itself when its not being used. This will realistically require industry wide standardization and it will take years to get there.

2. EVs should be able to broadcast to other EVs it’s charge status automatically, this being a passive solution that helps drivers find a “soon to be open” spot in a busy lot.

bgbythsea | 16 novembre 2016

@shank: You said above that the garage owner starts using a valet system when the garage fills up. Why didn't you just leave your keys and let them move your car for the EV driver who--without ubiquitous filling stations--might have really needed that charge?

shank15217 | 16 novembre 2016

SilverP85plus | November 16, 2016
Ps: get to work on time like the others that found a proper spot asshole.

Have a nice day

Just like the EV driver who should have got to work on time to get that priority spot, asshole. I would do it again in a heartbeat. I'm paying for my parking spot and that other driver may also be, but that doesn't guarantee they will get a charge spot in a full garage. Dream on.

shank15217 | 16 novembre 2016

SCCRENDO | November 16, 2016
@grega. The rest of the thread disagree. OP showed up without an EV. That spot is not for him. As would the handicap spot not be for him unless he has a placard.

Comparing a handicap spot to a EV spot is the definition of elitist. What give you the right make that comparison?

Silver2K | 16 novembre 2016

You take my spot, I would borrow Bighorn's valve stem remover. And if I need to charge and I get there with your car in that spot, Bighorn's valve stem remover comes back in play.

I will make sure you will have nightmares about that spot.

shank15217 | 16 novembre 2016


Yes, a public spot owned by the city or municipality, not a private garage where we all pay to park. Can you not separate the two?

lilbean | 16 novembre 2016

Pot, meet Kettle.