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Does the Bolt have too much range?

Does the Bolt have too much range?

I know that most people will disagree with me, but I think the Bolt has too much range. I know most, especially first time, electric car drivers want as much range as they can get, but really, what is it used for?

The Bolt makes a good city car. Most drivers drive well under a hundred miles a day. Getting down to this number by removing battery weight would increase efficiency.

The Tesla can use its range for long distance travel but the Bolt, without a supercharger network, really cannot. You could drive to a destination within 200 miles as long as you have access to an L2 charger and the ability to leave the car there overnight. Otherwise you could only travel about a hundred miles away from home. Less if you want to drive anywhere once you get there.

Without ubiquitous high speed charging, I don't see the ability to travel so I see the extra range as useless. It is good for marketing though as no one would be talking about it if it had 100 mile range.

SamO | 26 marzo 2017

How many paragraphs does it take to describe a route in the Bolt.

I'll start for the Tesla:

Get in the car. Enter your destination. Each stopping charge is plotted with directions and charging times. Drive.

There are no charging stations on many/most routes in the U.S. Good luck.

SamO | 26 marzo 2017

For the Bolt. Most routes are covered for Tesla.

Red Sage ca us | 1 aprile 2017

The BOLT is fine. GM has too much pride.

SamO | 1 aprile 2017

And pride goeth before the fall.

SamO | 2 aprile 2017

Amazing feet. The best feet. Huge. Hybrid - amazing. Tesla -sad.
#TrumpEagle

Red Sage ca us | 2 aprile 2017

Does the VOLT have too little range? Compared to the similarly gas guzzling hybrid, the PRIUS? Yes. The VOLTAGE has too little range. That is a shame. What's the point of having 'the best of both worlds' when you don't make the most of either? Ah! ZEV Credits that can be traded in to boost CAFE rating to allow more sales of gas guzzling pickup trucks and SUVs with minimal effort! That's the point. Gotcha.

Bighorn | 2 aprile 2017

Tesla gets up to 7.4 miles per kWh. Bolts are having trouble achieving their EPA efficiency according to users.

Carl Thompson | 2 aprile 2017

Bighorn:
"Tesla gets up to 7.4 miles per kWh."

That's really misleading and you are doing a disservice to people by not qualifying that number. You know very well real life is about half that.

Carl

Carl Thompson | 2 aprile 2017

EaglesPDX:
"T350 should come in at 4.32 miles per kWh being 20% lighter."

No way the Model 3 will only come with a 50kWh battery. I'm going to call it the Model 3/55.

Carl

Carl Thompson | 2 aprile 2017

@EaglesPDX

Oh, and I don't think the Model 3 will get quite 4.32 in a normal suburban mix of U.S. driving. But maybe 4.0 which is still very good.

Carl

Bighorn | 2 aprile 2017

@Carl
Of course the Model 3 will be able to do better than that. 550 mile max in a heavy 85kWh Model S, with 74kWh available if you want to check the math. "Up to" implies the upper limit--most people understand English and are aware of EPA averages.

Bighorn | 2 aprile 2017

My Model S get 3.85 miles/kWh around town. Using solely weight to extrapolate the Model 3's efficiency is not sound physics.

Red Sage ca us | 2 aprile 2017

The BOLT would be much better with a national DC Fast Charging Network that allowed for long distance travel between major population centers at little or no cost to end users.

Carl Thompson | 2 aprile 2017

Bighorn:
"Of course the Model 3 will be able to do better than that. 550 mile max in a heavy 85kWh Model S, with 74kWh available if you want to check the math."

I don't think the Model 3 will crack 4mi/kWh. I suspect my BMW i3 is considerably lighter than the Model 3 will be with it's carbon fiber reinforced polymer construction and smaller battery. The Model 3 has better aerodynamics though so those things may cancel out. The i3 will do 4mi/kWh on normal mixed driving on a good day (no AC, no heat, moderate temperatures, keeping it under 65MPH) so I'd expect about the same. Of course there are days when it does a little better and days when it does considerably worse depending on conditions.

Carl

Carl Thompson | 2 aprile 2017

That should be "I don't think the Model 3 will average better than 4mi/kWh."

SamO | 2 aprile 2017

And where do you charge?

Somewhere.

L.U.L.Z.

SamO | 3 aprile 2017

Why were you banned on TMC?

dyefrog | 3 aprile 2017

I'm cautiously optimistic that the Model 3 can average over 4mi/kw. If my experience is worth anything, I drive a EV hatch design with 0.32 dc. I get 3.9 miles/kw for the past 2 northeast winters, fairly even split of highway/rural and I flog the beast. If I drove like my age should dictate, I could easily get 4.2. Can someone do the math to compare what I might get with the Model 3 at 0.20 dc? BTW, my EV weighs about 3500 lbs so comparable to the Model 3.

spmeister | 3 aprile 2017

It's funny that people automatically assume that you MUST plug in an electric car, at home, every day. With a 238 mile range, someone who drives the national average of <50 miles per day only has to plug in once every 3-4 days. I have a co-worker with a Model S who lives in an apartment. No place to plug in at home. Once every few days, he'll drive it to a Level 2 charging station somewhere near work and ride a folding bike the rest of the way to the office. In the afternoon he'll go pick up the car.

topher | 3 aprile 2017

"4mi/kw" you mean 4 mi / kWh? Length per Power doesn't make any sense.

If you are getting 3.9 mi/kWh in a car with 0.32 Cd (coefficient of drag), then you should get around 30% better in one with a 0.2 Cd (for high speed highway miles). Perhaps 15% better overall(?) or 4.5 mi/kWh.

Thank you kindly.

Carl Thompson | 3 aprile 2017

@topher

Good point. But weight is also a big part of it and it's possible his Model 3 will weigh much more than his current car (whatever that is).

Carl

Bighorn | 3 aprile 2017

Weight really doesn't matter much unless there is a lot of stop and go driving or net elevation gains.

Carl Thompson | 3 aprile 2017

@Bighorn

Weight could easily be a big difference. For example the 3.5mi/kWh Model S weighs much more than my 4mi/kWh BMW i3 even though the Model S has a lower drag coefficient (0.24 vs. 0.29).

Carl

Carl Thompson | 3 aprile 2017

That should be:

Weight could easily be a big difference. For example the much heavier 3.5mi/kWh Model S is less efficient than my 4mi/kWh BMW i3 even though the Model S has a lower drag coefficient (0.24 vs. 0.29).

Bighorn | 3 aprile 2017

I'm talking physics--you're talking two different models from two different companies. Not exactly a cogent case. We can explore the effect of weight using available calculations--adding 1000 pounds in payload to a Model S has a nominal effect on range, except as noted above.

SamO | 3 aprile 2017

Starts the microwave popcorn . . .

[Notice the equivocation already starting . . . "a big difference" as among many big differences.]

Starts munching . . .

[pretending that the whole 550 mile "range" Tesla discussion upthread didn't happen]

munch . . . munch . . . munch . . .

KP in NPT | 3 aprile 2017

Bwrahahahaha

swingshiftworker | 3 aprile 2017

FWIW, I have gotten up to 4.4 m/kwh and a mid-range estimate of 250 miles when I have driven it locally on city streets and at speeds of less than 55 mph.

On the freeway in the fast lane going w/the "flow" of traffic at 75-85mph, the Bolt will only get 2.8-3 m/kwh and at best achieve a range of around 180 miles with it's 60kwh battery (some say it's actually a 65 kwh battery, but it's only rated at 60).

It all depends on how you drive it.

dyefrog | 3 aprile 2017

"my EV weighs about 3500 lbs so comparable to the Model 3." Model 3 is supposed to come in between 3200-3500 IIRC

dyefrog | 3 aprile 2017

Time to update those sales figures Pigeon:
http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/
PHEV sales 2017
Chevy Volt 5,563
Toyota Prius Prime 4,346
Tesla Model S 6,100
Chevy Bolt 3,092
Tesla X 4,300

Chevy 8,655
Tesla 10,400

And the Leaf sold 1,478 in March to the Bolts 978.
YTD
Leaf 3,287
Bolt 3,092

akgolf | 3 aprile 2017

Ouch!

Carl Thompson | 3 aprile 2017

Bighorn:
"I'm talking physics--you're talking two different models from two different companies. Not exactly a cogent case. We can explore the effect of weight using available calculations--adding 1000 pounds in payload to a Model S has a nominal effect on range, except as noted above."

You need to go back to class then! ;-)

Seriously, though, of course weight can a huge difference because of inertia and friction. Things that have greater mass (weigh more) take more energy to change vector (speed and direction). In other words applying any type of acceleration (whether it's speeding up, slowing down or turning) is going to take proportionally more energy relative to the mass (weight) of the car. The more energy that's used the more is going to be wasted due to inefficiencies in the battery, inverter, motor(s) and regenerative breaking systems. Also energy is lost as waste heat due to friction between the tires and the road surface (cars can't work without this). Finally any kinetic energy removed from the car by the regular friction brakes is 100% lost as heat. Obviously all of those losses are proportional to the energy used to move the car and that energy is proportional to the mass (weight) of the car.

Really, though, it should be intuitively obvious that heavier things need more energy to move.

Carl

KP in NPT | 3 aprile 2017

*grabs popcorn*

Bighorn | 3 aprile 2017

Using intuition was your downfall. And words you don't seem to understand.

SamO | 3 aprile 2017

Don't knock him out in the first round.

Munch. Munch. Munch.

Bighorn | 3 aprile 2017

Here--do an experiment with evtripplanner. See how much energy it takes an S60 to drive from Tampa to Key West, since Florida is pretty flat. Use 0 pounds and 2000 pounds, Route direct and see how it affects the energy required for the 425 mile trip. I'll give the answer after finishing my work as the sixth man. Go Heels!

Red Sage ca us | 3 aprile 2017

Hey! I like popcorn! But... I thought that part of the proposed ~detant~ and/or cease fire we weren't supposed to contribute to the promotion of this thread anymore? Uhmmm... Salt... Butter...

Bighorn | 3 aprile 2017

Mind you, there's a 16 foot net descent which favors the heavier car, but an unladen Model 60 on 19" wheels will use 123.9 kWh whereas the same car carting around an extra ton will use 124.0 kWh or 0.08% more energy i.ei 1.0008 times more energy. NOT a BIG difference, but others have argued semantics over words such as "comparable" before, so I wouldn't be surprised if someone tried to parse this very obviously small difference based on weight. And congratulations to Roy Williams and the guys!

JayInJapan | 4 aprile 2017

Truthiness?

SamO | 4 aprile 2017

Someone banned from moderated forums (TMC) for goat molesting (best guess) should probably just stop when you're behind.

SamO | 4 aprile 2017

Here is the group that drove 450 miles in a single charge
http://www.theverge.com/2015/8/26/9210607/tesla-hypermiling-model-s-p85d

Here's 550 miles on a single charge
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-85d-sets-record-550-3-mi-on-a-single-cha...

But please . . . You were saying why you were banned by TMC . . .

Bighorn | 4 aprile 2017

550 miles divided by 74 kWh equals 7.4 miles per kWh. Truth. Actually 7.43, but nobody likes a braggart.

KP in NPT | 4 aprile 2017

Bighorn | April 2, 2017
Tesla gets UP TO (emphasis added) 7.4 miles per kWh.

jordanrichard | 4 aprile 2017

So Eagles, what is your spin on the recent sales figures for 2017?

Carl Thompson | 4 aprile 2017

Bighorn:
"Here--do an experiment with evtripplanner."

You can believe what you read on the internet if you like. Common sense should tell you heavier objects need more energy to move.

Carl

JayInJapan | 4 aprile 2017

Truthiness?

KP in NPT | 4 aprile 2017

LOL

Bighorn with the record by a landslide for most unique supercharger visits and who knows more than about anyone regarding consumption and range does not simply "believe what he reads on the internet." I think he's waiting for data - and so are we!

Munch munch

NKYTA | 4 aprile 2017

Oh, so the math behind evtripplanner is now completely suspect? Because it is "on the internet"?

Sign me up for the popcorn...

KP in NPT | 4 aprile 2017

It's really hard to believe someone who has owned 3 EVs dismisses the math on EVTripplanner. It's almost like he knows nothing about it...

Bighorn | 4 aprile 2017

I see here what we have--another science non-believer, so I will come down to your tabloid level of thinking and put this in your common sense "pipe"--

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/strongman-sets-world-record-pull...

Horoscopes are on page 33.

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