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Renting a Tesla car before buying it. Concerned with range.

Renting a Tesla car before buying it. Concerned with range.

After trying a Nissan Leaf, I learned how annoying and counterproductive the idea of charging cars in public stations is. In my region at least I see the public stations have been getting more crowded, unreliable and expensive. So my decision on whether to buy an electric car again is going to be based on whether I can drive 35 miles to go to work round trip and still drive 100 miles more in case of other social events arise. On paper it seems that a Model 310 could do it. However based on the number of Model S and X I see competing for a spot in the public charge stations in town, I am not totally sure.

Therefore I decided to rent a Model S for a week before placing the order.

Like someone wisely said, in electric cars the truth is that I should consider the car range is 50% of the advertised max range. When you factor hills, cold weather, rain and acceleration habits and cabin heating, the advertised range seems to be unrealistic.

I think if the advertised range is increased to 600 miles, then it will be very attractive even if we assume the rate of charge keeps slow as is now. However it seems that is not going to be happening in the near future given the raw material to make the battery packs may be in short supply soon.

tstolz | 1 settembre 2017

Not sure who you are listening too ... I live in Alberta, Canada ... regularly -25 F ... and drive 30,000 miles per year with a 70 mile round trip commute. In the early days I didn't even have much in way of Superchargers to choose from ... and it was never an issue for me. I regularly get EPA in the summer and max loss is 30% in winter as long as I manage the car (pre-heat on shore power). That said, when I go off the Supercharger network I generally make sure to have 2-3 charging options. Range anxiety and charging anxiety doesn't really exist with a Tesla due to the long range of these cars and the amazing Supercharger network!!

KP in NPT | 1 settembre 2017

So much wrong here.

You're worried about a 135 mile round trip to work/surprise drive with a 310 range car? We have a 240 range car, and never worry about not having enough range for that unexpected trip. 310 for our model 3 is going to be a dream.

Who on earth told you to expect 50% advertised range? Maybe for a leaf but NOT for a tesla. Jeez. Even in winter when we drove to VT in 5 degree F weather we got better than 50%. More like 65-70%. That was with running the heater and going up into the mountains.

Do you have charging at home? Because if you live in an area with crowded superchargers (CA) and will rely on them, then yes that part could be a factor. But if you'll be charging at home, then it will be a factor only as often as you road trip. And by that I mean more than 250ish miles until you might need a supercharger.

I think renting the S is probably a good idea. A 90D will have similar range as the extended battery.

Rocky_H | 1 settembre 2017

@MarlonBrown, Quote: "Like someone wisely said, in electric cars the truth is that I should consider the car range is 50% of the advertised max range."

I don't think I would call a gas car salesman's advice "wise" about electric cars. Yeah, that's a ridiculous assertion. Someone is trying to stoke worries in your about electric cars.

Tâm | 1 settembre 2017

@MarlonBrown

I agree that advertised 600 mile range would be great (to skip Superchargers) but in the mean time, Tesla range is realistically fine.

I have never got any problem from my 2012 Model S85 for driving in my radius from San Diego to Sacramento (500 miles), from San Francisco to Las Vegas (550 miles).

For sub-zero degree F winter, your loss could be about 30%.

When you talk about 50% loss, that's a lot of drag racing speed! Yes you lose lots of range by driving 120 mph!

Bighorn | 1 settembre 2017

Wow--SMH. Wise AF, not.

deemo | 1 settembre 2017

I would normally would say about 70% of rated for normal use - best use is 90% charge and 10% left and expect to see about 90% of rated range in normal use. The 10% left with going slower and other range extending measures will still give you about 40 extra miles if needed (on 259 mi rated 75D). The 90% is normal charge range I use, with charging completing maybe an hour before I leave. I only go to above 90% for long trips when it is needed. If really cold you will lose another 15% rated so maybe 75% of rated is approx. worst case. If take 80% charge use times 75%of rated range gives approx.. 60% for worst case normal use with still having 10% left for unforeseen events.

carlk | 1 settembre 2017

Better yet drive one. Pretty much everyone who has replied this bs owns one.

LostInTx | 1 settembre 2017

The the OP's assertions were true, I'd be asking for a refund right now.

Shockingly, I'm not asking for a refund.

Carl Thompson | 1 settembre 2017

Many people here that own Teslas are saying about 30% - 35% is the maximum range loss in winter. But many people here also say that you shoudln't charge above 80% - 90% except occasionally. When you take both recommendations into account then having a little more than 50% range is about right. You can either risk charging higher than 90% every day during the winter or maybe don't use the heater and just use seat warmers instead. I personally would use the heater because I wouldn't like the idea of spending $50k - $60k for a car and not being comfortable.

Carl

KP in NPT | 1 settembre 2017

In the winter, I regularly charge to 100% before my commute (185 miles one way) and in 2 years my battery has lost only 5 miles.

People regularly charge to 100% - that is not the issue as much as letting it sit after you do. I can assure you that the 50% number is no where close to accurate and I'm sure every owner (all those who posted, except Carl) will agree.

Tâm | 1 settembre 2017

@Carl Thompson

Leaving your car at 100% state of charge for a long time is bad but charging to 100% then use it is fine.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/the-rules-of-model-s-road-trippi...

burdogg | 1 settembre 2017

Boy lots of owners nailing this one :) Maybe the op could specify their wise source of 50%? I also have not experienced that but hey I am just a dogg and don't know much, but I would listen to a lot of the owners posting :)

Carl Thompson | 1 settembre 2017

@KP , @Tâm:
"Leaving your car at 100% state of charge for a long time is bad but charging to 100% then use it is fine."

Hmmm... I've heard the car will display a warning telling you that you shouldn't do it if you charge to 100% too many days in a row. Is that not true? If it is true then does Tesla say somewhere that it's OK to ignore this warning if you drive as soon as your car finishes charging? I'd hate to ignore what the car is telling me just based on what people are saying on a web forum (no offense).

Carl

KP in NPT | 1 settembre 2017

I've never seen such as warning. But I don't do it every day.

KP in NPT | 1 settembre 2017

Bear in mind charging to 100% is for road trips - not something you'd do every day (over the lifetime of the car) presumably. Jeffrey Dahn says it's ok to charge to 100% occasionally for long trips. He would know.

https://electrek.co/2017/09/01/tesla-battery-expert-recommends-daily-bat...

KP in NPT | 1 settembre 2017

And regardless, the OP is concerned about a 135 mile day, which my 70D charged to 90% (211 miles) would handle with zero issue, even in winter.

Carl Thompson | 1 settembre 2017

@KP:
"Bear in mind charging to 100% is for road trips - not something you'd do every day"

Didn't you a few posts ago advocate right here that the OP charge to 100% every day during the winter?

"In the winter, I regularly charge to 100% before my commute (185 miles one way) and in 2 years my battery has lost only 5 miles."

"People regularly charge to 100% - that is not the issue ..."

Carl

KP in NPT | 1 settembre 2017

My commute is not every day, so no I did NOT advocate charging to 100% every day. You assumed.

It would be twice a week - once to get there, once to get back home. My car sits in between.

Regularly to me means more than just every once in a blue moon - like say once or twice a week.

Carl Thompson | 1 settembre 2017

So, anyway, if you only charge to 80% or 90% as many people recommend, and if the car can lose 30% - 35% due to cold whether as many people here say, then planning for about 50% of rated range sounds reasonable for prudent and conservative people (I am one).

Some people on this thread are saying that it's OK to go ahead and charge to 100% every day in the winter as long as you don't let the car sit for long when you do. Some people may disagree with that so everyone should decide for themselves if it's OK.

Carl

KP in NPT | 1 settembre 2017

People here, besides me, range charge (meaning to 100%) on road trips all the time. Literally. There are many owners here who travel cross country for fun and they charge to 100% when they need to.

KP in NPT | 1 settembre 2017

You can be conservative, Carl - that's fine. I was conservative when I first got my car because I was still "getting the feel" for it. But you do learn that it's not necessary to be so conservative. Planning for 50% range is ridiculous even in winter - unless you are towing something. I never was THAT conservative. So you, as a non owner, advocating that here is spreading FUD.

Carl Thompson | 1 settembre 2017

@KP:
"My commute is not every day, so no I did NOT advocate charging to 100% every day. ... Regularly to me means more than just every once in a blue moon - like say once or twice a week."

Sorry I misunderstood your use of the word "regularly." Your definition is a little different than most people's. It's also a bit strange as your responses were to the OP who is talking about his daily commute. It sure looked like you were saying it's OK to charge to 100% every day. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Carl

KP in NPT | 1 settembre 2017

His daily commute is 35 miles, Carl. I was not advocating he needed to charge to 100% for 35 miles. That would be silly.

Carl Thompson | 1 settembre 2017

@KP:
"Planning for 50% range is ridiculous even in winter - unless you are towing something. I never was THAT conservative. So you, as a non owner, advocating that here is spreading FUD."

I'm not the one saying it. Some owners here say only charge to 80%. Other's say 90% is OK. You yourself said a few posts ago that you can lose up to 35% range in the winter. So simple math give you 80% x (100% - 35%) = 52% potential range in the winter based on what Tesla owners here, including yourself, say. So I don't see how it's FUD when I'm just repeating what owners here say.

Carl

KP in NPT | 1 settembre 2017

35% was my absolute worst case scenario, which (check my math) is not 50% - it was on a 400 mile road trip at 5 degrees F with intermittent snow driving to the mountains. On THAT trip, I would charge to 100%. Therefore, that trip did not equal 50% - and your assertion is FUD.

KP in NPT | 1 settembre 2017

Oh and I should add - that was at 70-75mph speeds running the heater. Didn't slow down and didn't freeze.

Carl Thompson | 1 settembre 2017

@KP:
"35% was my absolute worst case scenario, which (check my math) is not 50% ... your assertion is FUD."

I'll put it more simply for you. IF you charge to 80% percent AND you lose 35% range as you did THEN you'll get 52% of your car's rated range. That's not FUD just math. Math is not an opinion or negotiable.

Carl

Captain_Zap | 1 settembre 2017

Your trip will be easy peasy. That "wise" advice wasn't experienced.

deemo | 1 settembre 2017

One thing renting will not get you is adjusted to range anxiety. You get used to having a low charge when get home pretty quickly but if you rent, not likely to have a good means of charging at home. Also, with an EV you know exactly how much is left in "the tank" and the "gas station" is your plug at home.

KP in NPT | 1 settembre 2017

Carl, I'm telling you 35%. That's 35%. Not your 52%. Ive already taken your math into account. You do not know what you are talking about.

I look forward to you getting your tesla so you can get a clue.

Carl Thompson | 1 settembre 2017

@KP:
"Carl, I'm telling you 35%. That's 35%. Not your 52%. Ive already taken your math into account."

KP, you are full of crap. You've already said you charged to 100% so, no, you did _NOT_ take charging to 80% into account. If you did take it into account then what you're saying is you lost only 15%.

"... at 5 degrees F with intermittent snow driving to the mountains. ... at 70-75mph speeds running the heater."

You saying you only lost 15% under those conditions is a bald faced lie. I know it, you know it, everyone else here knows it.

Carl

KP in NPT | 1 settembre 2017

I'm telling you about MY trip. And that THAT trip, which was a worse case scenario, range was reduced 35%. I did not leave with 80% charge. What is so hard for you to understand about that?

We are talking about 2 different things - because you just want to twist things to make your point. I am talking about reduced range per charge, you are talking about reduced range per pack assuming less than full charge and buffer. I never said I charged to 80% on that trip. Do you want to talk about a road trip where you charge to 80% and then set out in winter for the mountains? Your range on THAT CHARGE would be reduced by 30%. But I would also tell you there is no reason to force yourself into that situation when it is perfectly fine to charge to 100% in that scenario since there is no harm in doing it. You just want to argue for the sake of arguing. And no matter how you want to argue it, every owner on this thread has told you that 50% is absolutely ridiculous but you dig in - despite the fact you do not own a Tesla and don't know WTF you're talking about.

KP in NPT | 1 settembre 2017

To the OP - in winter, short trips eat more range because the battery is less efficient until it warms up. It takes about 20 miles for the battery to warm (so you get lower consumption and full regen) - but the good news is the battery is so big it's still not an issue for your commute, even if you opt for the short range battery.

Carl Thompson | 1 settembre 2017

I'll say it again:

IF you charge to 80% percent AND you lose 35% due to inclement weather THEN you'll get 52% of your car's total rated range for your trip. So under those conditions the OP's statement

"... I should consider the car range is 50% of the advertised max range. When you factor hills, cold weather, rain and acceleration habits and cabin heating, the advertised range seems to be unrealistic."

So if the OP follows owners' advice to only charge to 80% and wants to allow for losing 35% due to weather as owners here have said is possible then, yes, the OP's 50% number is reasonable.

@KP I'm sorry you can't believe it but that's just the way the math works out. It's not opinion and not FUD.

Carl

KP in NPT | 1 settembre 2017

Whatever Carl. I look forward to you not worrying about your range in your Tesla.

Tâm | 1 settembre 2017

@Carl Thompson

It's good to be cautious, but as the example below, if you need 100%, you do 100% as Tesloop Taxi for the past 200,000 mile report:

"The Tesloop Model S has only degraded about 6%, even though it’s being charged to 100% every day, rather than the default—and recommended—90% charge."

https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/29/tales-from-a-tesla-model-s-at-200k-miles/

patswin | 1 settembre 2017

Try this approach Carl. If 80% charge is plenty for what you need for the day then there is no point in charging to more than 80%. If you need 90% for the day then you charge to 90%. Need over 90% then charge over 90% but just don't leave it sit at that high state of charge for long. Best if leave for trip once it hits 100% or whatever amount over 90% you decide to charge. People say to charge to 80% for daily driving because for most people that is plenty. Capisce?

batmanasb | 1 settembre 2017

50% of 310 is still 155, so OP has his required 135 miles of range plus 20 extra just in case or to keep his battery high enough above zero. That's assuming only about a 80 to 85% charge and 30 to 35% loss in the winter. So what exactly is the issue?

Carl Thompson | 1 settembre 2017

@hawkeyecustom

I agree with you. I plan to charge my own car to 90% every day not because I think there's anything wrong with charging to 100% (I've charged to 100% with my 3 EVs so far with no issues) but simply because I that's the maximum recommended by the car for everyday driving. (That's what the car recommends on screen and I've read that the car complains if you charge higher than 90% regularly.)

But some owners here recommend only charging to 80% for everyday driving to maximize battery life. Is this necessary? I don't think so but some owners seem to think so. The OP says he thinks planning to be able to get 50% of the car's range is reasonable. I'm just saying that if he follows the 80% advice, and if he wants to be prepared to lose 35% of range due to weather / driving habits (which owners say is possible) then his 50% number is reasonable. That's just how the math works out and it has nothing to do with what I myself believe or advocate. It's just math.

The OP also says wants to be prepared to drive 135 miles on any given day. If he wants that comfort zone, and if he wants to plan using his 50% number (which is reasonable under the conditions above) then he should buy the long range Model 3. Again, it's just math and not opinion.

Does he need to be that conservative with his comfort zone? Does he want to follow the 80% recommendation? That's only for him to decide.

Carl

Carl Thompson | 1 settembre 2017

@batmanasb:
"50% of 310 is still 155, so OP has his required 135 miles of range plus 20 extra just in case or to keep his battery high enough above zero. That's assuming only about a 80 to 85% charge and 30 to 35% loss in the winter. So what exactly is the issue?"

Yes, you're exactly right. There is no issue with what the OP wants or said (as long as he buys the LR model). The issue was someone was arguing about whether the 50% number is reasonable. She decided to call me a "troll" for doing the math and saying that 50% _is_ reasonable if you're conservative and follow the charge to 80% advice.

Carl

GetLib | 1 settembre 2017

@CarlThompson
You made your opinion about range known long ago. Considering your real life experience with Tesla range, one or two posts should be plenty. You're not an expert, so don't demand to be viewed as one.

burdogg | 1 settembre 2017

Tesla says 90% - so why do we keep using 80%? hey I hear 50-80% is the sweet spot. There are so many reasons for xyz out there, but Tesla says 90% - so why are we using 80% to prove our 50% hypothesis?

Hey I get it, but math can "manipulate" numbers - it is not all facts. I can push numbers to say what I want - statistics is great at that. So math can be manipulated. Now don't go blowing up on me - I followed your numbers, but using 80% when TESLA says 90% just pushes the numbers to prove a point, that is a false point to make :)

Carl Thompson | 1 settembre 2017

@burdogg:
"why are we using 80% to prove our 50% hypothesis?"

Because that's a number that many owners here recommend. It's also the number that EM himself recommends.

https://twitter .com/elonmusk/status/448466037441179649

Carl

Carl Thompson | 1 settembre 2017

BTW, Jeff Dahn, Tesla's battery guru, recommends even lower to maximize battery life (70%).

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/jeff-dahns-recommendation-on-lon...

Carl

Carl Thompson | 1 settembre 2017

@GetLib:
"You're not an expert, so don't demand to be viewed as one."

No one needs to view me as an expert. But people should view me as being capable of basic math. None of these numbers or recommendations came from me; they came from owners here and experts at Tesla. Why are you angry at me for what those numbers say?

Carl

Bighorn | 1 settembre 2017

There are a lot of smart and experienced people here to help the OP. People who are neither may need to learn to STFU sometimes, especially when they repeat the same uninformed garbage.

Carl Thompson | 1 settembre 2017

@Bighorn

Which part is uniformed? Believing some Tesla owners here, EM and Jeff Dahn when they recommend charging to 80% (or less)? Or believing Tesla owners here that inclement weather and driving habits can reduce range by 35%? Those are the only two assertions needed.

I'm surprised at the number of people here that think this is somehow just my opinion rather than the simple math problem it is. I can't change math. If you think there's something wrong with my math then please show me what the error is.

Carl

JayInJapan | 2 settembre 2017

It's well-established that the only people with range anxiety are non-owners. Non-owners, working off their googling skills are going to provide all the value you're paying for.

Once you become an owner, you learn how our cars perform. There's a ton of information here on the M3 forum from owners who have driven their Teslas in all conditions.

OP, if you're really worried about it, renting a MS/MX Is an option. I found a MX for rent on Turo; ten days with it satisfied my curiously.

KP in NPT | 2 settembre 2017

Owners are telling you your math is wrong, because they do better than 50% in real life as opposed to google because they are not constrained by a 80% charge limit to get to their destination or to meet their daily driving needs. I don't see why that is so hard to understand.

CV63 | 2 settembre 2017

@Carl
I think you might be taking the 35% off of the 310. You need to take it off of the starting range number.

Even if you assume 80% charge, you start with 248 miles. 248 x .65 = 161.2 available miles.

With a 90% starting point, you start with 279 miles. 279 x .65 = 181.35 available miles.

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