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E-Cat and Tesla Motors

E-Cat and Tesla Motors

It's quite a long time ago when I found this site. I don't know if u ever heard about Andrea Rossi or E-Cat or cold fusion, but since even Elon Musk said that he believes cold fusion is possible, it would be nice to see in Tesla future car model using E-Cat technology for generating some cheap heat for A/C. Or maybe it could be used as future alternative propulsion technology - you know, classic automakers have gasolin and diesel and rarely natural gas, which all are burned with CO2 and NOx in process, but cold fusion is clean source of heat (energy) and since Tesla is beting for this clean sources I believe they could use it once in the future.

I am aware that they are actually short on money for additional research and design, but I just had that idea so I want to have a little discussion on it. Do you believe this is possible?

for people more interested in this topic there is also few more information about E-Cat:
Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer
brief NASA: http://technologygateway.nasa.gov/media/CC/lenr/lenr.html
other: http://www.e-catworld.com/

Timo | 23 agosto 2012

I really really doubt that Elon had said cold fusion is possible. More like he had said that it is impossible.

It hurts me that there is yet another "high-ranked" scientist giving statements to the area where he has no expertise (Dr. Joseph Zawodny is no nuclear physicist), and then that scientist is used as authority to boost the credibility of the claim.

E-Cat is highly probably just a scam.

Jolinar | 24 agosto 2012

It's pity that you are not trusting me... Nevermind, there is no better way how to change your mind than to show you the video with Elon Musk saying that. So please look at this video on Youtube. In 38 minute of video he start talking about 3 things which he think is possible in the future. First is supersonic electric jet plane, second (42:45 on video) is cold fusion (not same as E-Cat of course) and third (43:45 on video) is hyperloop. All 3 thing are futuristic stuff, but he claims that all 3 thing are possible in the future. Whole interview is very interesting so I recommend to watch it whole :-)
Well, I hope you are not doubting about me or Elon now. E-Cat is maybe just a scum... or maybe not... we will see in 2013 as Andrea Rossi claims to deliver first 10kW heating unit for home purpose.

Timo | 24 agosto 2012

"They could make fusion working". No mention about cold fusion. He even defines that further by saying "magnetic containment fusion" and "relatively standard fusion".

Jolinar | 24 agosto 2012

Well, you are probably right, I didn't realize he isn't meaning cold one. I can admit my mistake... but it is not changing my mind about cold fusion and I still hoping to see it in work one day :-)

Brian H | 24 agosto 2012

Jolinar;
If you want a project to follow, check out LPPhysics.com instead. It uses a kind of tiny (ultra-hot) fusion-fission event to generate pulses. A 5MW generator is likely to fit in a shipping container. Compare to E-Cat's warehouse to generate 1 MW!

And the costs are projected to be 10-20X less than the best US systems now available. Within 4-5 yrs.

Volker.Berlin | 24 agosto 2012

Within 4-5 yrs.

Has always been and will always be. :-P

David70 | 24 agosto 2012

Yes VB, but regular fusion has always been within 10-20 years. So, this group has been more optimistic.

David70 | 24 agosto 2012

Clarification: Controlled fusion.

Jolinar | 24 agosto 2012

thx, for another tip :-)
well, regular fussion 10+ years, plasma fusion 4-5 years, Andrea Rossi's fusion for home purpose not even 1 year (for factory heating 3 months to deliver 1MW) - he is still the most optimistic one ;-)

Timo | 25 agosto 2012

V.B, I wont agree with "will always be". LPP already reaches fusion. I think the hard part for them is that they not only try to reach fusion they try to reach aneutronic fusion. That is way harder thing to do. If they would settle with tritium-deuterium or deuterium-deuterium fusion it would be ready this year, but that would require a lot heavier shielding against radiation, and fuels for those are not as easy to obtain as hydrogen-boron.

No tokamak is even close to that. And for those I agree that "has always been and will always be" is quite true.

Brian H | 25 agosto 2012

Timo;
New video -- presentation to a "Flying to Mars" group.

Mention of Elon, Branson, etc., in attendance. A couple million from those guys would go a long way!

AlainCo | 26 agosto 2012

Situation seems more advanced, since swiss startup, LENR CARS RARL, founded by Nicolas Chauvin, (a serial innovator), with the help of EPFL business angels, propose to build e LENR hybrid car, based on Tesla model S

Electric Vehicle

The main base of the iCar project is the electric vehicle.

We have decided to use the Tesla Model S Performance mainly for the size of the battery.

It is the only electric vehicle currently available with a battery storage of 85 kWh.

This capacity allows a range of 450 to 480 km.

Moreover, the Model S has two trunks, one in the front and a regular one in the back.

This allows to use the space available in the front to place the LENR generator.

Finally, the Model S has no compromise in terms of style, comfort and performance.

This makes it the best candidate for the iCar project.

it is the phase 1 target, and in next phases they plan to make more efficient version.

The slides of their presentation at ILENRS12 is published on that forum

it seems based on Defkalion reactor specification, but e-cat might be usable too when the specification are public.

the tesla car is beautiful, and this can help to accept the initial imperfection and price...

Jolinar | 26 agosto 2012

AlainCo, wow I see this for the first time, This is exactly what I meant, but I thought it would be made right by Tesla :-)

Sudre_ | 26 agosto 2012

WOW. They have a long way to go. Wish them luck. 775Wh/h charge to the battery is not very promising but it's a start.

jerry3 | 26 agosto 2012

Assuming the generator runs 24 hours a day that's about 80 miles of range.

775*24 = 18600
85000*.80 = 68000 (assumes 20% of battery is not used to get 300 miles)
18600/68000 = 0.2735
300*.2735 = 82

Brian H | 26 agosto 2012

jerry;
TM has never said 80% gets 300mi. That's full range.

85,000 Wh x 1.2 (charge inefficiency) / 775 = 132 hrs. = 5½ days.

Timo | 27 agosto 2012

That's 54 miles / day.

Jolinar | 27 agosto 2012

That thermoelectric generator is very inefficient, but I think this project is about creating first working prototype. Improving efficiency could be the second step.

jerry3 | 27 agosto 2012

Brian,

I was thinking of the bottom part that doesn't get touched.

Timo | 28 agosto 2012

If there is any, then it is in addition to 85kWh, not part of it. Tesla 85kWh does give full 85kWh for driving.

Jolinar | 23 maggio 2013

just to reignite discussion about viability of E-Cat, I've found some new results:
http://phys.org/news/2013-05-rossi-e-cat-energy-density-higher.html
there are some other links in the article including the paper:
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1305.3913v2

frmercado | 23 maggio 2013

Interesting to say the least. Though I would wait until the research is submitted to a peer-reviewed journal... If it holds up this could very well actually change the world as we know it.

SamO | 23 maggio 2013

@jolinar

Great catch. Glad to see there is now a paper submitted for publication?

Anyone can be tricked through sleight of hand, especially since the test was done @Rossi's lab.

The nickel substrate was not examined due to "trade secret" concerns.

However, a fairly designed test would require that the trick was more complicated that the ACTUAL science of LENR.

Tentative excitement.

nwdiver93 | 23 maggio 2013

Two perpetual motion posts and now this? Is this crank week?

Brian H | 23 maggio 2013

Don't look behind the nickel curtain; ignore the fat shyster back there.

frmercado | 23 maggio 2013

@ nwdriver93 Don't dismiss this right off the bat. If you read the article and the paper you can tell that this goes beyond your usual charlatan's gimmick; this is not cold fusion or any other physics defying act, it looks like an experimental method for generating heat (energy) in an extremely efficient way under controlled laboratory conditions. Let's wait and see. Also, maybe we should all do a little more research about all the parties supposedly involved on this experiment, see how legitimate this all is. For now I'll, personally, give this "breakthrough technology" the benefit of doubt.

Brian H | 24 maggio 2013

You'd be wiser to give it a full blast of doubt than the benefit.

Jolinar | 26 maggio 2013

@nwdiver93
it heas a "fuel" so it's not a perpetual motion machine

@Brian H
I totally understand your scepticism, Rossi is also entrepreneur, not only pure scientist.

@frmercado
Yea, I'm not going to make premature conclusions on Rossi's research of LENRs. The only thing we can do is wait and see. Next, long-term test should be in the summer.

Brian H | 26 maggio 2013

A picture of Rossi's 1 MW plant showed a warehouse sized place full of racks of his rigs to the ceiling. Laughable.

Jolinar | 28 maggio 2013

What is laughable about that?

Brian H | 28 maggio 2013

The incredible inefficiency and puny return. This is a shell game, count on it.

magikrorrim | 2 dicembre 2013

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRm1N1LPibY A Current LENR concept for cars.

PorfirioR | 2 dicembre 2013

I happened to notice that the background image on Elon's twitter page is called "fusion" (https://twitter.com/elonmusk).

Just an interesting "fun fact".

nwdiver93 | 2 dicembre 2013

Eistein was awarded the Nobel prize for the photoelectric effect 70 years before the first grid-tied PV system. People have been talking about LENR for decades. No Nobel prizes handed out and not a single kWh exported to the grid. Let's put more effort into PVs/EVs and less into SCAMs.

Jolinar | 3 dicembre 2013

Are they talking about it for 70 years yet? :-)

Also how many years they was talking about photovoltaic before Einstein explained how it works?

nwdiver93 | 3 dicembre 2013

The point is that they're trying to convince people that they're going to commercialize something based on a physical principal that if true would certainly be more than worthy of a noble prize... The fact no one has been awarded a nobel prize is a huge red flag. If true commercial applications of LENR would arrive AFTER a nobel prize... not before.

I challenge you to cite one instance where someone was awarded a nobel prize in physics for a discovery that was in commercial use at the time they were nominated...

Jolinar | 6 dicembre 2013

@nwdiver93
well, water-mill before Newton? :-D
ok, that's maybe a wrong idea...

So better examples from physics Nobel Prizes:

2000 - Jack St. Clair Kilby - United States - "for his part in the invention of the integrated circuit"
2009 - Willard S. Boyle and George E. Smith - Canada, United States - "for the invention of an imaging semiconductor circuit – the CCD sensor"
I guess I could find much more...

nwdiver93 | 8 dicembre 2013

"I challenge you to cite one instance where someone was awarded a nobel prize in physics for a >>>discovery<<< that was in commercial use at the time they were nominated..."

Key word was "discovery"... The photoelectric effect wasn't invented. Integrated circuits and CCDs weren't "discovered". A working E-Cat would require a principle currently unknown to science to be discovered. That's why LENR gets no respect... there is no known mechanism by which it could work. Sure... Rossi claims he's getting energy by transmuting nickel into copper, if he could prove this was happening he would be a nobel laureate for this discovery.

magikrorrim | 22 dicembre 2013

@nwdiver you need to get more current with your information. As it stands now patents are being filed and awarded, even shell oil has an international lenr patent. There are currently 2 US LENR patents granted one for the US Navy and one for George Miley.

The science phase is over, the engineering phase has begun, more companies are involved than just Rossi, Rossi is being made the Drake's folley of the LENR market.

If I were you I'd pay very close attention to Brilluion Energy, unlike Rossi, they are actually driving the science behind LENR, and have been recently granted a patent from China. The are also receiving funding for the next phase of development, they are also receiving support from SRI International, very big players from the world of physics. Estimated time for getting lenr to market for Brilluion Energy September 2014.

I would assume you keep reading information that's twenty some years old, when even MIT admits LENR works, they even teach a class in it...

nwdiver93 | 22 dicembre 2013

I made no claim about patents... my statement was very clear and very specific. The US patent office is much less particular than the nobel committee.

Any LENR would require physical nuclear reactions to occur that under the current paradigm are impossible, >>>DISCOVERING<<< such interactions would ensure a >>>NOBEL PRIZE IN PHYSICS<<<

No Nobel Prize => No verifiable Discovery => Odds of a commercially viable LENR are exceedingly low

If you're basing what's possible on patent awards then get ready to throw the LAW OF CONSERVATION OF ENERGY out the window...

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/11/1111_051111_junk_patent....

Rocky_H | 27 dicembre 2013

The U.S. patent office used to be actually directly funded by the government. People got paid for investigating the validity of patents. Then, someone got the bright idea that they should be able to fund themselves with charging fees to the applicants. So they get paid for each application and paid for every approved patent. The committees realized that they get paid for approving things, whereas if they do their supposed jobs to investigate the substance of the patents and reject some, they will not get paid for those. And that, boys and girls, is how the U.S. patent system got destroyed.