Larger battery pack possible?

Larger battery pack possible?

Today one can get 85 kwh battery.
What makes that the upper most choice?

Why not 125 kwh? I would happily pay more for such an option.

If this is not possible due to weight issues what might change over the next year or two?
Are there new battery types in the pipeline that are lighter or can pack more power one the same weight and volum as todays battery?

How much more do you think it would cost to get 125kwh battery rather then 85 if at all possible?

Sudre_ | 26 gennaio 2013

In the question and answer area Tesla says it will not be possible to upgrade battery size. I would imagine that also means when they create a larger battery with new tech batteries the older cars just become obsolete.

Brian H | 26 gennaio 2013

Actually, they have only the faintest clue about what will happen in 10 years. Same as everyone else.

Timo | 27 gennaio 2013

OTOH Elon has said that making a 500+ mile car right now is no technical challenge. Only thing preventing that is that it would cost too much (to be profitable businesswise I guess).

125kWh battery wouldn't actually weight much, current Panasonic tech gives us closer to 250Wh/kg specific energy which gives us 500kg battery (batteries alone). For a car that does weigh a bit over two tons with that that's just 1/4 of the total car weight.

dtesla | 27 gennaio 2013

I'm sure in the future Tesla will offer larger capacity batteries (3-5 years?) as the battery power density goes up. So they can put more KWh in the same can.

My question is: In 8+/- years can we replace our batteries with the larger capacity one. (by then 150 or 200 KWh in the same can may be possible.)

nickjhowe | 27 gennaio 2013

@dtesla - TM have said "NO" in writing, so that's the official stance.

This sounds more like a marketing statement than an engineering statement, and I wouldn't be surprised if things change in a few years.

If they said yes now, then I'm sure a bunch of folks would opt for smaller batteries with a plan to upgrade in future and that would damage TM's short term revenues and margins...

Brian H | 27 gennaio 2013

It's also true that some wiring differences exist when SC is implemented on 60s and 85s, and sure as sunrise lots would buy 40s and expect to upgrade to 60s+ expecting to have SC. And be outraged when informed otherwise.

teddyg | 27 gennaio 2013

That's right I thought about going for a 60 kWh pack with SC and then upgrading my pack when new battery tech is available in 5+ years. I think the Model S is a car I could own for 15-20 long as you can upgrade to better batteries along the way and the car holds up in terms of motor/chassis/build quality I don't see why I couldn't do this...certainly makes the asking price seem more reasonable when you think of all the savings over a 20 year period compared to an ICE car over that same timeframe.

On another note I think Bentley, Rolls Royce, Maybach and all the ultra luxury executive sedans are absolute idiots for not switching to fully electric right now. For the price these cars sell at they could easily put in a battery with a 500 mile range and the car would run quieter, cheaper, smoother, faster, with better handling, safety, and more storage space than the gas hogs they are producing now.
What elitest executive wants to have to stop at the pleblian gas station ever again?...I bet they are terrified when they have to do so. Instead let "Jeeves" plug in at the estate's 10 car garage behind its multiple gated entries and security guards. Ahh what a life.
If they don't do it soon Tesla should make a Model E for "Elite"...a streched version of Model S, with all possible luxuries, and a 500 mile range. After the Gen III of course though ;-)

Brian H | 27 gennaio 2013

Not tea bags! Probably get a lot (? dozens? hundreds?) of the less-loaded ordering them too ...

teddyg | 27 gennaio 2013

? Rolls Royce sold a record breaking 3,500 cars last year...Bentley sold 7,500+
At a $250-$300k a pop could be another couple billion in revenue for Tesla. I'm just saying the ultra high end in this category has to see the all-electric writing on wall or they are total morons and deserve to die. If Tesla can execute them, all the better.

Brian H | 27 gennaio 2013

As an option, promise a 10 resupply contract for Grey Poupon. :D

andy | 27 gennaio 2013

I've read Tesla comments that changing the battery size after purchase is not supported because the car suspension is tuned for the battery pack weight. Sorry that I don't have a link in front of me right now...

teddyg | 27 gennaio 2013

Booo Brian...they just had some geek stuff a bunch of batteries into the engine compartment of regular Rolls (actually the batteries are probably in the truck eliminating all storage space!)...thus the terrible performance and no difference to safety, handling, storage space, etc.
They need to build an all electric Rolls from the ground up as Tesla has done with the flat floor battery and motor down low between the wheels...the Model S platform will be copied for every EV going forward...mark my words.

Problem is the dinosaurs that are Rolls, Bently, et all have too much invested in the ICE aircraft engines that they put into these cars...they think its state of the art technology but when Tesla makes an ultra luxury car to compete with them and it is better in every way and probably costs a lot less... their days will be numbered...can't wait

teddyg | 27 gennaio 2013

@ Andy...would be easy for Tesla to design the new packs to weigh the same as the old batteries get better they will also likely get even if the pack weighed the same as your old one you would be getting more kWh per pound.
But honestly how hard would it be for Tesla to reset the suspension for a new battery anyway?
There is no great technical challenge here and I think what Nick said above is right...Tesla just doesn't want to admit it can do this as many people might opt for smaller batteries today in the hopes of buying better/cheaper batteries in the future.

If Tesla doesn't provide this service someone else will...of course if you don't mind voiding your warranty.

Superliner | 27 gennaio 2013

The Battery technology of tomorrow may well exist already but just not in commercially viable form. Lithium Ion batteries have been around for at least 50 years and probably known or theorized before then. They have also been used to power EV's long ago as well "just Google" ( 1967 Toyota 2000 GT )

It becomes more a cost problem than an energy density problem. As Elon said a 500 mile BEV is possible "probably has been for decades" but nobody with the exception of entities the size of entire Nations could afford the technology. The batteries onboard the original Voyager One probe are still functional, have been for decades in temperatures colder than any possible here on Earth.

I could potentially? get one heck of a BEV range wise if I had a pack of those those batteries on board. I've no doubt the technology we seek is already here, just not viable from a cost standpoint.

Until "We The Public" demand something better and those who can are willing to pay front loaded costs to get it, progress will be slow.

Like him or not, Pres. Obama said it best and I quote "We are the ones we have been waiting for".

Thanks to pioneers like Elon and many here who ponied up to early adopt the technology. These type of folks IMHO don't do this to make or save money, quite the contrary they make or save money BECAUSE they do it and they do it because it's the right thing to do. There is no argument for preserving or promoting fossil fuel transportation as far as automobiles are concerned.

We only have "One Atmosphere" Seems silly to gamble with it. There is always a tipping point beyond which you cannot recover. have we passed it? Is it 100 or 1000 years from now? guess I like to breathe better than I like to gamble and those we leave behind will likely feel even stronger about it than we do lol!!

"Rant Off"

teddyg | 27 gennaio 2013

A 500 mile BEV wouldn't cost that much...175 kWh x $400 kWh = $70,000 for the battery pack...chump change when talking about putting it into a car like a Rolls or Bentley retailing for $250,000k
Obviously this will improve with time...but certainly within the reach of the 1%...not talking nation states or NASA budgets here anymore.

Superliner | 27 gennaio 2013

@ teddyg,

I was speaking to the potential cost of doing those type of range numbers or more 50 years ago. Today it would as you say not be such a big deal, still expensive but reachable to the few. It's not quite ready for prime time though as most folks can't afford a $150K + car or even a $100K car.

Kleist | 27 gennaio 2013

R&R revenue 4,000 cars * $300k = $1.2B
Tesla MS 20,000 cars * $80k = $1.6B
GM 9 million cars * ?? = $150.0B

wrong direction I would remark.

Brian H | 28 gennaio 2013

gamble my bippy. The experiment at >10X current levels has been run, and life had a field day, except when cold intervened.

GeirT | 28 gennaio 2013

@ teddyg, I agree with you. Nothing is static and battery technology will definitely improve thus offered range will improve as well. "If Tesla doesn't provide this service someone else will..." for sure, just as ICEs are tuned and rebuilt some smart EEEs will provide this after market service. That said, I'd still go fr the 85.

teddyg | 28 gennaio 2013

Was just thinking it will be quite hard for Tesla to announce when they will be incorporating better batteries into their cars.
I.e. When Panasonic releases its 4.0Ah battery how will Tesla announce their use in their cars?
If they say the new batteries will be in all cars produced after June 1st 2013 won't they get a wave of cancellations as people will want to wait for the new/better batteries?
I suppose they could offer a discount on the last few months of older generation batteries?
Hmm Tesla will have to get a bit creative here I think.

teddyg | 28 gennaio 2013

Your right superliner...i say Tesla should tackle every vehicle market above $50,000 USD right now...this would certainly be easier than tackling the sub $30,000 market...but I know Tesla won't sell out like that, Elon wants to bring EV's to the masses...i hope he can but any manufacturer that isn't going full EV in the $60,000+ market right now is a total moron in my books....the writing is on the wall for the high end...the ICE is done in that market.
That's right Ferrari, Bentley, Porsche, Lambo, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Maserati, Rolls Royce, BMW, Range Rover, Mercedes, Audi, Lexus, etc...I'm talking to YOU! Your dead if you don't go full EV soon!

Brian H | 28 gennaio 2013

Yes. Probably in concert with a new model reveal. Combined with some kind of substitution "deal" for existing res holders. It will be vurry innerestin.