Supercharging process?

Supercharging process?

Hi guys,
I guess a few of you have used the supercharging network already?
Just wondering how it works exactly?
Can you make a "charging reservation" on one of the pumps so that there isn't someone using it when you arrive? Would suck to have to wait for someone else to finish charging before you can even start. This could lead to an assumed 30 minute stop turning into 45 mins or an hour or more (if you are third in line!)

I realize this problem is probably a ways off yet, but there will be a lot more Tesla's on the road soon!

Would be great if the supercharging stations were fully integrated with the onboard touch screen via the web so that you could see what charging times are available and book your charing time well ahead of schedule. This way you can plan your trip to arrive at the chosen time. The station should also prompt you to confirm your time at a certain point so if you are running late you can change or cancel your booking so that someone else can use it if you won't be able to.

I also think they may need an attendant at the supercharing stations. What if someone's car is finished charging but they are running late getting back? A person who has booked their charging time may get a little upset if they can't start charging because someone else has left their car in the way.

You could have the supercharging stations send you txt/email alerts as your car gets close to full charge reminding you to get back and move your car...but it might be better to leave your keys with a supercharging attendant so they could manage all the charging stations and cars, so that they could move vehicles around as they finish charging.

Just trying to think of the smoothest way for this to all work. Don't want Tesla to disappoint here...they have been so great at everything else thus far!

Timo | 22 gennaio 2013

@Pungoteague_Dave, did you read what I wrote? In my example I was using long distance travel with need of SC near urban area. Not in it, but close. It really doesn't matter if there are slow charging possibilities in the city if I'm not planning to stay there more than five minutes. I need fast charging otherwise that trip would be really really really annoying and I would stick to ICE car for distance travel. Eventually BEV needs to have that, otherwise it will never beat ICE for distance travel.

You need charger relatively close to city so that that round-trip to it from the SC position is possible within one charge (real life range). That means 100 miles max distance, preferably closer so that round-trip distance is less than 200 miles. Also if you are going to drive in the city for a while without leaving you might want to have relatively high SOC state when you arrive there.

In my model in "travel corridor" I would put one charger within 50miles from any city, then roughly 150 miles for any additional chargers.

Brian H | 23 gennaio 2013

You are talking about cities on your route that you are really just bypassing on your way. Your analysis works for that scenario. TM won't be able to cover all possibilities, though.

Timo | 23 gennaio 2013

Not yet. I wouldn't bet about the future for that. It isn't really TM that is building actual SC stations now, so maybe some take away- restaurant could put one in their parking lot just to draw people in (fast food, so that you can actually get it before charge is finished).

"Get your pizza here, charge while waiting! 15min or less wait time guaranteed!"

Brian H | 23 gennaio 2013

Well, if they paid for the power. It would have no more 'appeal' than any other SC, aside from convenience for some.

NumberOne | 23 gennaio 2013

Just to clarify, I did say on the NJ turnpike (toll road) near an urban area, such as NYC. I doubt a person would pay a toll to charge their car when the actual charging cost is less than the toll. I do understand that it would not make business sense. I fully intend to have charging equipment in my garage. For the amount of driving I do, I doubt that I would spend more than $2 per day anyway.

Pungoteague_Dave | 23 gennaio 2013

Timo, I did read you example, which makes my point exactly. This is the scneario that I live personally. My home is a farm about 160-170 miles aways from Baltimire & DC. I go to those cities once per week to teach classes at Johns Hopkins and shop, visit doctors, see our kids, transact business, get car wash & haircut, drop off dry cleaning, do banking. etc. With the distance to the cities, plus the amount of running around when there, it is impossible for me to round-trip it without a charge somewhere inthe middle. Further, there are no charging stations except one Nissan dealer in the 120 miles closest to my home on the Eastern Shore (Delmarva).

However, I still see NO need for TM to provide any charging in or near those big city locations because I have plenty of alternatives to get a charge. There are now charging stations at almost every stop. I can charge when stoping for breakfast & coffee, stop for lunch, visiting daughter in Besthesda (in her apartment parking garage or at the metro station garage next door), while teaching class for 4 hours (at the JHU parking lot charging station), while picking up wife at airport (free charge at the short term garage), and while buying groceries at Whole Foods on the return trip, etc. It takes a little planning, but this comes with EV territory.

I envision similar scenarios further afield, such as our couple trips per year to Philly, NYC, Boston, and Portland ME. However, in those situations, the SC WILL make it possible. I have NO interest in an SC in or near Philly, New York City, Boston, etc. - we want the SC's between the cities at places where we will stop for a meal. While in the city, charging aps will take care of our running-around and return top-off power requirements just fine.

Using your scenario or mine, urban areas and nearby suburbs simply have no good reason for an SC, and would probably even be detrimental to battery longevity because we would be tempted to do too many fast charges in routine use. TM gets this and it is fundamental to their SC strategy - to take away the single biggest limitation for EV's - the freedon to just get in and drive. That will work in heavilly popoulated corridirs. Now if we could figure out how to do a National Parks trip without having to center our activities around the car's needs rather than our preferred schedules, we will really have something.

As it stands now, I cannot see how to swing a Model S trip to Glacier, NP, down through Yellowstone, the Tetons, etc., without fairly short driving days (so more days on the road), and constantly planning long stops or overnights at commercial campgrounds (we would normally tent camp at park campgrounds, but that would not work with the Tesla). So while waiting delivery of our S in the next week or so, we remain realistic that there are some things that only an ICE will be able to handle efficiently for the next phase of automotive transport, and will keep a pickup for the practical things it can do, like haul trailers or schlep gear down a 4wd road to a trailhead.

Timo | 24 gennaio 2013

@Pungoteague_Dave, However, I still see NO need for TM to provide any charging in or near those big city locations because I have plenty of alternatives to get a charge.

There's the difference between you and me. Where I live there are absolutely no chargers of any kind available. Which is stupid but, considering how our government does it's best to milk all the money out of people that need cars, not so surprising.

Brian H | 24 gennaio 2013

I guess it's hopeless. You'll have to conform, and take the bus. ;(

Pungoteague_Dave | 24 gennaio 2013

Where do you live? There are charging stations in virtually every major metropolitan area in the US...

Timo | 24 gennaio 2013

Not in US. Finland.

Brian H | 26 gennaio 2013

Timo lives in Finland, which is several miles NE of Boston.

teddyg | 27 gennaio 2013

You guys keep saying that Superchargers are only built in remote areas where "nobody" lives...this is think all the people who work at the malls, restaurants, motels, etc which superchargers are located commute from hundreds of miles away and the entire area becomes a ghost town after 10:00pm or something?

I asked what the population of some of the supercharger locations are but nobody felt like looking it up so I did:

1. Folsom, CA - 75,000 residents
2. Harris Ranch (Selma, CA) - 25,000 residents
3. Gilroy, CA - 50,000 residents
4. Barstow, CA - 25,000 residents
5. Tejon Ranch, CA - ???
6. Hawthorne, CA - 85,000 residents
7. Milford, CT - 55,000 residents
8. Newark, DE - 35,000 residents

While these are low population areas they aren't ZERO population areas. If just a few hundred Tesla's live within 0-25 miles of these locations I can see those locals abusing the free superchargers and hogging them up from the people who really need them for long distance travel.

Again as I said if you have a 60 or 85 kWh Tesla you can drive around all week, not plugging in at home, then say every Sunday you stop at the Supercharger for a free top up from near empty whilst you do some shopping or have a meal. Then you get another free week of driving on Tesla's dime. You can make it your own little routine. And belive me people will do this..I guarantee it.

Only saving grace is that if you can afford a 60/85 kWh Tesla you probably don't care about the $25 you save each week...but this adds up to $1,300 a year...and you better believe that those buying a $30,000 Gen III will scam this system if possible.

I highly doubt the Gen III will be allowed to supercharge for free as a result...unfortunate but just the way people are unfortunately.

Brian H | 27 gennaio 2013

Now you're getting goofy. The number of MSes aside (very low, not hundreds) how many owners value their time at minimum wage, or less, which is the "earnings" from going to and hanging around the SCs to charge every week or every few days? They might once or twice, just to do it, but it would get old.

What is it, the thought someone (besides yourself) might be gaming the system? Fuggedaboudit.

Benz | 28 gennaio 2013

Considering that from all the feedback that Tesla Motors do get from the people who spend their time to post on this forum, a high % should be considered as useful. Thinking today about how to handle the problems of tomorrow just cannot be a bad idea at all. And I must say that some ideas in this thread are very useful to consider.

We should use the technology that we have at our disposal. The fact that there is an EV (Model S) that really is useful and that really can be bought, is great. And people should make it a part of their daily lives. Just because they have the option to do so. Just think of the time when this was not possible yet (only upto a few years ago), the time when EV was just "future talk". We should just thank the people (like Elon Musk) who have great ideas through which we have more possibilities in our lives. And it is up to ourselves to lean forward and grab the technology that is being handed towards us. The Internet can be very useful in this matter. Why shouldn't we use it? Let the technology work for us. Just make people's lives easier. Think about it.

Pungoteague_Dave | 28 gennaio 2013

teddyg, are you serious? Do you have a reservation? Smelling more and more like a wanna-be. The population numbers you cite disprove your own point. The locations with existing Superchargers have tiny populations in the big context, and are in places where the 1%'ers who can afford these cars would NEVER live. The population in those locations are mostly service employees for the road business (or work at the outlet stores in a coupel places), and live in mobile home parks. Given the 20K sales target, it is unlikely that more than a few Teslas will actually live in those submarkets.

If and when TM rolls out Gen III, it is highly doubtful it can or will include the range or charging technology in the Models S/X. Everyman cars will be lucky to have the battery technology and interface chracteristics of the current line. It is just too expensive to build the full TM experience in the kinds of volumes and price points needed to make these cars competitive with the next gen hybrid Accords or Camrys (unless a major car company buys TM and can spread the development costs over a much wider platform).

teddyg | 28 gennaio 2013

Punto-whatever...if I smell like a wannabe you smell like an elitist pr* everybody else but you lives in trailer homes eh? wow...your so special.

I didn't say this would really be a problem for 20,000 Model S users who obviously don't really care about saving $25 a week.
I am talking about the Gen III model Tesla expects to sell in the hundreds of thousands. And this is why I doubt supercharging will remain free for anyone but Model S and X owners.

Elon said in the Q3 conference call that Tesla expected to make supercharging available in the Gen III. He said they are aiming for a 200 mile range to be able to offer supercharging and didn't think it was impossible to offer all this for the base price of $30,000 (after rebates). Its these more modest income individuals who are more likely to try and game the free supercharging system.

I am just foreseeing potential problems for Tesla, which is what a forum is all about...talking about Tesla...the good, the bad, the a stockholder I hope Tesla browses these forums and is taking note as there have been some great suggestions by many people.

p.s. I have two Model S reservations, so thanks and bye-bye.

To keep talking about "wasted time" and people wouldn't want to give up their valuable time to go and supercharge/top up once a week.
In the example I gave its not about wasting time...maybe a person simply plans to do their grocery shopping once a week at the supermarket next to the supercharger, or happens to like the restaurant next to the supercharger and goes there to eat once a week, or likes the retail shops surrounding the supercharger and goes to shop/browse there once a week, or goes to see a movie at the movie theatre next to the supercharger once a week, etc, etc...the person is simply planning his week and activities a little bit better to take advantage of the free supercharger while doing what they would normally do anyway.

Again not really a problem now but something that will have to be considered if Tesla wants to keep supercharging free when Gen III comes around.

Timo | 28 gennaio 2013

@teddyg If just a few hundred Tesla's live within 0-25 miles of these locations

I don't know the actual locations, but I could quite easily place SC here "inside" 100000 people city without it being within 25 miles of more than handful of houses. US is a big place, I bet most of the cities have rural areas right next to them that is technically still part of the city as well.

Situation changes in very large parts of the Europe (and I imagine east coast of US). Areas where population density is so high that you don't need a city to still be close to a lot of houses.

Benz | 28 gennaio 2013

Regarding your last sentence: "It is just too expensive to build the full TM experience in the kinds of volumes and price points needed to make these cars competitive with the next gen hybrid Accords or Camrys (unless a major car company buys TM and can spread the development costs over a much wider platform)."

Let's see if Tesla Motors can prove you wrong. I think that Tesla Motors actually can and will prove that you are wrong. Maybe in 2020, who knows?

And I hope that Tesla Motors will remain on their own, and that no major car company will ever buy Tesla Motors. At least not before 2100.

Brian H | 29 gennaio 2013

What everyone seems to leave out of the mix:
It is entirely a 'franchised' operation by Solar City, which Elon also owns/controls. They will put up enough arrays to produce excess power; all power is sold to utilities, returning a profit margin to them.

As long as there are utilities in the network buying power at reasonable rates, Solar City can extend and expand this model and network without limit, world-wide.

From TM's POV, their costs are siting and the chargers (which Elon says have reached the 'economies of scale' volumes, and are cheap). It is a marketing expense and program.

It is not inconceivable that a few will use the SCs that way, but charging to full at home overnight is far, far more likely and convenient for virtually everyone.

Benz | 29 gennaio 2013

It's good to know that somebody (Elon Musk) is trying hard (technologically) to make this world a better place for all mankind, that's just great. I think we should be glad about it and show some good will. We do not have to keep on polluting the earth (ICE/Oil), there IS another way (EV/Solar). I am really excited about it. And more people should be as well (that's my opinion).

Superliner | 30 gennaio 2013

@ Benz

+1 I hear you there!

Benz | 30 gennaio 2013

@ Superliner

Good to know that.

Could you take a look at my thread in the Tesla Model X department. The titel is "Does a Model X (85 kWh) with a dual motor have a smaller range than a Model X (85 kWh) with a single motor?".

I have set out a certain situation. And I have asked 5 questions. Maybe you can answer them? That would be helpful. Thanks.

lov2krz | 30 gennaio 2013

Teddyg, thanks for the stats.

I'd like to suggest that we look at this in a different light.

I live in Morgan Hill (pop ~32000) which is 11 miles north of Gilroy. Gilroy is 23 miles south of San Jose. I go to Gilroy 2-3 times a week but hardly visit the Gilroy Premium Outlet Mall. The Tesla charging station is walking distance to In-and-Out, Denny's, and a noodle house. If you're interested in discount shopping I might consider the charging station but please be assured that I'm not driving the 22 mile round trip to shop or eat there 2-3 times a week or use the free charger, I've got better things to do. OBTW, I'm not on the top 2%.

I know of at there 3 MS's in Gilroy who might game the charger but in reality I don't think driving a car in this highly congested parking area with people trying to find their shopping spot is worth the fender bender that is very likely to occur. I used to live in Gilroy and have seen many parking lot crashes at this mall, especially on the weekends.

Folsom is an outskirt of Sacramento with its large population. Hawthorn is in the LA basin, several million people. The tesla charging stations are where people pass through or visit infrequently. Not saying someone with a Gen III working there wouldn't use it. The EV's I've seen at public charging stations are parked there are most likely because they work there or are shopping/eating nearby.

Benz | 31 gennaio 2013

When there will be a higher number of persons in a certain location, then you can count on it that the number of problems will also be higher. More people is equal to more problems. That's why I have always lived in a area with not too many people living around me. A village would be too small because it would not have all the facilities that a city does have.

The best way to deal with problems is when they really do start to rise (when they really start to occur). Let's wait and see what really happens when most of the Superchargers really will have become operational. As time passes by it all will come to the surface automatically. Time will tell.

bellwilliam | 31 gennaio 2013

problem I see are trips from LA to Las Vegas on the weekend.

supercharger is 1/2 way at Barstow.

every Friday night, bad traffic getting out of LA on 15 to LV, because many travel to Las Vegas for weekend trip.

I foresee Barstow supercharger will be tied up Friday night and Sunday afternoon.