Forums

"Tesla to limit self-driving functions"

"Tesla to limit self-driving functions"

Captain_Zap | 16 dicembre 2015

An article derived from another questionable article.

hcwhy | 16 dicembre 2015

Zap....it's not true then?

AmpedRealtor | 16 dicembre 2015

It's true and it's about time.

Captain_Zap | 16 dicembre 2015

It is still up for debate. The source seems to be a beta tester that violated an NDA.

P.Mac | 16 dicembre 2015

All things considered, restricting AP to the legal speed limit is perfectly reasonable, and hardly a legitimate cause for complaint.

-Gman- | 16 dicembre 2015

in most places where you'd use autopilot, normal traffic flow is 5+ miles above the posted speed limit. Such a restriction would make Teslas an (annoying) impediment to the natural flow.

JayRo | 16 dicembre 2015

If this was to be true it would be a BIG step back.
I use AP everyday and have logged a HUGE amount of milage on it. I must say not once at the posted speed limit since traffic NEVER moves at the posted speed limit.

If I had to engage AP at a posted speed limit. I would 100% be a huge obstacle on the highway. Even in the right lane at the speed limit, and lets not talk about the right lane AP limitations (Diving into exits, etc). Every car would overtake me then move back into my lane probably almost cutting me off to prove a point that I am being a slow poke holding up traffic, which would make the car AP react with brakes etc just pissing off more drivers behind.

If this is Tesla's fix to stupid owners that just want to push all boundaries, I don't agree. They have the logs of everyone. I would recommend just disable the abusers and let us AP lovers and proper users enjoy the function. I'm even ok with a limit but has to be OVER the posted speed to make the function safe. I know it does not make #'s sense but it's reality.

On that note. Say I have my Cruise and AP set at 20km/h or 13Mp/h over the speed limit. We all know our T's can read speed limit signage. Then why can the car not compute that, and when the speed limit drops my cruise doesn't just adjust to the same factors it was set at prior.

Simple math I have it set at 120km/h on a highway stating 100km/h. When it drops to 80km/h my cruise should be able to recognize and automatically adjust to 100km/h.

Now that would seem like an upgrade worthy of an update!

AmpedRealtor | 16 dicembre 2015

I believe the sorts of restrictions we will see have to do with the types of roads on which Autopilot can be used. Since the human is still 100% responsible from a liability standpoint, there is little reason to limit the speed to the posted limit. But if Tesla does implement such a restriction, well, I'm glad I didn't trade in my car and take a $40,000 hit on price for a feature I would never use.

JayRo | 16 dicembre 2015

@ P.Mac
Get on the highway and set your AP to the posted speed limit.
Then post videos of how many times you get cut off and flipped the bird.
Now that would make for a good You Tube for Tesla Corp to have and see.
I wish I had the time in my day to do this.
Wait that is something they must have tested at Tesla Head office, if they think it is the proper fix, or am I just talking common sense and can you all detect sarcasm.
Note. I am not pointing figures at Tesla Head Office just the way the world seems to operate now days. React and slap everyone with the stick instead of seriously looking into things and testing and slapping those deserving.
On a plus the stock is up 4 points on "This news"? Maybe I'm the minority after all.

hcwhy | 16 dicembre 2015

Good point, Gman

jlewisthe3rd | 16 dicembre 2015

I think we are all overestimating what Tesla considers an AP restricted road. Secondly limiting AP usage to the posted speed limit on a "restricted" road is NOT a bad thing it helps reduce risk so lets not jump the gun based on speculation. This is in BETA for a reason and the testers will give the proper feedback so that Tesla can release something that protects themselves while giving users what they want.

Remember all the speculation on the NAG of AP prior to 7.0, and then when it came out everyone was happy for the lack of NAG. So lets just see what happens...

AmpedRealtor | 16 dicembre 2015

+1 jlewisthe3rd

Roamer@AZ USA | 16 dicembre 2015

@P.Mac, Please never run for public office.

The system is brain dead simple to use. Mommy Tesla does not need to waste time trying to figure out all the places that it may not work. It is very easy for the driver to figure out when it will help with driving tasks and when it will not help.

Put enough restrictions on the system and it becomes a reason not to buy the car rather than a useful drivers aid.

hcwhy | 16 dicembre 2015

+ 1 jlewisthethird

Tesla usually does things right.

Pbfoot | 16 dicembre 2015

I agree with the notion that limiting AP to at or below highway speed limit would be a significant detractor. I have a Model X on order and would not get AP as an option if this turns out to be the case.

I also agree that enforcing the limitation of AP to highways, and not local 'restricted' roads, is reasonable, at least in the current functionality of AP.

Since AP does not work in conjunction with GPS sensing or NAV system and therefore cannot sense what type of road you are on based on location, what is possible is they could limit the minimum speed at which AP works, i.e. it won't engage if it reads speed limit at less than 45-55 mph.

niunio | 16 dicembre 2015

@JayRo, I agree with your post; I hate to see speed bumps on parking lots where because of few irresponsible speeding drivers we all being punished. Similar here: AP speed should be set at "safe" speed depending on driving conditions like all highway traffic. We do not need more regulations, but we need more common sence.

niunio | 16 dicembre 2015

Sense that is, sorry

Roamer@AZ USA | 16 dicembre 2015

@JayRo +1

I set mine to five MPH over posted then bump it up or down based on traffic flow and conditions. Since TACC is designed to follow traffic and match speeds it would be completly idiotic to put a restriction to posted speed into the AP system.

What would be really useful would be a feature that automatically adjusts the set speed when posted signs change. That would be a worthwhile and useful upgrade. If I am set at five over in a 75 MPH speed zone then it should adjust to five over when the sign changes to 70 MPH. That would be a useful system change.

I can only assume many commenting on the system and its operation have limited or no experience actually using the system. If you have not logged time or mileage using the system preference your comment with; I have no idea what I am saying but I am going to say it anyway.

Roamer@AZ USA | 16 dicembre 2015

Preface

Roamer@AZ USA | 16 dicembre 2015

Pbfoot

Your comment to limit to above 45 MPH does not account for all the ways the system is useful.

I spent hours grinding along in a 5 MPH traffic jam. The system worked perfectly to just follow along and stop and go as needed. With out the system I would have suffered leg cramps from the thousands of stops and starts as traffic inched along.

rxlawdude | 16 dicembre 2015

In the latest 2.9.40 release, the notes claim that auto-steer is disabled on roads without a center divider. I have not actually observed this limitation to be in effect.

Unless and until we see significant impediments to auto-steer, we should keep our powder dry when these unofficial "sources" bleat gloom and doom.

Mike Tuccelli | 16 dicembre 2015

What's all this ranting about? If you want to speed, don't use auto steer. If you would learn how to read, 70 MPH is 70 MPH. 71 and above is speeding, period. Ask your legislators for zero tolerance policy. Pull up on website traffic count on your highway and multiply that by percent you know are speeding and multiply that by prevailing fines and tell them to be fiscally savvy and pay off all bonds and debts with this cash flow!

Instead of complaining that others speed, DEMAND that your jurisdiction install court approved calibrated cameras and mail or email substantial speeding tickets to EVERY DRIVER with a link showing INDISPUTABLE video clips showing GPS coordinates, time and date. Include on the video clips calibrated markers so the ticketed driver can confirm with a stop watch he or she is indeed speeding.

For example, if all speeders on I 95 in Duval County during a single day were fined, it would pay for city budget for months!

I have commuted 150 miles a day for 28 years and can read an alarm clock and know when to leave the house so no need to speed. In fact, the Tesla is so much fun to drive, I enjoy the extra time!

If it really bothers you so much to get flipped off by speeders, get a Garmin GPS camera and record all of them and send video clips of them to the police and insurance companies. Let THEM get socked by high insurance rates.

Hooray for Tesla for wanting to comply with clear cut traffic laws. If you want to give our children a message laws don't apply to you, don't use auto pilot and speed away. Don't ask me then why our children have no respect for authority.

rxlawdude | 16 dicembre 2015

@Mike Tuccelli - You sound serious, but I couldn't have found a better "letter to the editor" in the Onion.

P.Mac | 16 dicembre 2015

I think this is going to be an interesting thread.

Tesla is not telling us to limit our speed to the posted limit. They are telling us that they do not think their system is ready for higher speeds. They also have told us that they want to get to full autonomous, so I suspect they will eventually improve the system to allow normal cruising speeds.

Until they make those improvements I will set my TACC to my normal target above posted speed and do my own steering.

Interesting comment about running for public office. Actually I am pretty much a libertarian, which is about restricting government rules. Tesla is aggressively introducing new technology and is free to use its best judgement.

Roamer@AZ USA | 16 dicembre 2015

@Mike Tuccelli, Was that you going five under the posted in the left lane ?

Pbfoot | 16 dicembre 2015

Roamer: to clarify, the system would use the posted speed limit, not the speed traveled. On the highway in traffic jams, the posted limit would will be 55 so you would still have functionality. This is all speculative, of course.

rxlawdude | 16 dicembre 2015

"Tesla is not telling us to limit our speed to the posted limit. They are telling us that they do not think their system is ready for higher speeds."

No, Tesla is telling us that IDIOTS abuse the Auto-steer system, and therefore we need to be treated as idiots.

Tropopause | 16 dicembre 2015

The Google self-driving "bubble" cars are limited to 25mph. Maybe the future is slow and easy like Sunday morning. ;)

JayRo | 16 dicembre 2015

@Mike Tuccelli,

Get OFF the Highway!!! Don't get upset I'm just asking you use the side roads before someone gets hurt.

Yes Speeding is Speeding, I agree 100%. But let's start enforcing 1 MPH over the speed limit and watch the chaos!!! Let's get serious, please. Keep the posts to things within the realm of possibility.

jordanrichard | 16 dicembre 2015

You know ever body, if the government wanted to, every single car in the U.S. could be speed limited to 65, 66, 67 or whatever, MPH. Every car is already limited by the computer (rev limiter). So, since that will never happen, Tesla is not going to limit the car to the speed limit because they won't sell anymore cars.

Surf | 16 dicembre 2015

This argument is pretty one sided IMO. The main function of auto steer is for highway driving and if it can't be set at the speed desired it will become close to useless. I am such a huge fan of this tech and feel it provides an extra set of eyes on the road for me and significant safety. There is the actual speed limit and the functional speed limit. In Southern California and most other areas of the country the flow of traffic is 5-10 mph above the posted speed limit. It's not like I stop driving the car at when autopilot is set at 70 mph. I will have to drive it alone if they put in this restriction and that will prevent me from using the safety of autopilot just when I need it most. I would strongly consider not updating if this happens. I hope I'm not forced into that decision.

Haggy | 16 dicembre 2015

In California, there's a long list of criteria for setting speed limits, and the primary one goes by traffic studies and uses the 85th percentile. The agency that sets the speed limit can adjust that by 5mph and speed limits are posted in 5 mph increments. It's understood that 85% of vehicles will travel within 5 mph of the posted speed limit simply because drivers feel safe at those speeds. The exception would be on roads where the speed limit is at a maximum and can't be set higher based on a traffic study. Law enforcement agencies account for a margin of error and would rarely pull anybody over for being within 5 mph of the posted speed limit. However, they will pull vehicles over for driving at a speed that impairs the flow of traffic, especially if the vehicle is not in the right lane. If there's a posted speed limit of 65 mph, traffic is moving at 70mph, and I'm going 65 mph in the left lane, I can get a ticket. There's a law against speeding. There's a law requiring slower traffic to keep right. There's a law against impeding the flow of traffic. I am expected to follow all of them, they are not conditional laws that say "...unless other traffic is speeding," and among the three, the posted speed limit is the one that law enforcement agencies will allow a reasonable margin of error.

It serves the community much better to target cars that are going 10 mph over the speed limit, and an officer who waits a few minutes will find somebody doing that or worse. Pulling somebody over for moving with traffic isn't very helpful, especially since their speed might be what the traffic study accounted for.

Different states have different rules, but when 100% (rounded) of traffic is moving faster than the posted speed limit but within a reasonable margin of error, it makes sense to drive with traffic. The same CalTrans publication that defines the rules for setting speed limits explicitly states that going below the 85th %ile rounded down to a 5 mph increment increases the likelihood of accidents.

If Tesla limits vehicles to the speed limit in areas where other vehicles don't drive at the speed limit, that makes things less safe.

rxlawdude | 16 dicembre 2015

I very vividly remember a quote from a San Juan Capistrano CHP officer: "If you're going 80, you WILL get a ticket. If you're going less than 80mph [in posted 65mph zone] we MAY pull you over, but we have better things to do."

My experience is that 80mph is the absolute Chippie magnet (even on I-15 with a 70mph limit). I sometimes do 75mph (+10mph in a 65mph zone) and have never been cited for speeding. Yet. And I've been passed or have passed myriad CHP units while doing so.

The one time I was cited by the CHP for speeding was on CA-99 in a rental SUV doing 82mph, though the officer (very kindly) wrote me up for only going 75mph.

So I'm agreeing with Haggy that, at least in California, the CHP won't look at you twice if you're "only" doing 5mph over the speed limit. Local cops? They are much more likely to cite for any speed over the limit.

I think I'd have some choice words for the poster (undoubtedly muttered to myself) who seems to think he's the arbiter of the road, were he driving the speed limit in the number one lane of a sparsely populated freeway.

hcwhy | 16 dicembre 2015

@rxlawdude:

Aggressively slow driving is just as dangerous as aggressively fast driving....maybe even more so.

rxlawdude | 16 dicembre 2015

@hcwhy - not to mention much more irritating.

I'm reminded of one of my favorite George Carlin lines: "Have you ever noticed that when you're driving, anyone going slower than you is an idiot and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?"

priustech | 16 dicembre 2015

I drive the speed limit and have never had an issue- Tesla or Prius. Never flipped, no increase in vehicle braking to prove a point. Not where I live, not in Los Angeles during packed like sardines traffic or more free flowing traffic.

That being said, I am in strong support of unrestricted AP. It is very effective and corrections are occasional.

UnshodBob | 16 dicembre 2015

The linked article begins: "Tesla will pump the breaks on some of its self-driving features" ..., just another idiot "reporter" or "editor" that doesn't know what stops a vehicle. This stupid error is picked up and reprinted all over without adding (sic) or any other attempt at correction. Proof reading is a lost art, I guess.

herbglo | 16 dicembre 2015

It seems to me the majority of Tesla AP drivers are doing a very good job.
It is the few idiots that are out of control. Tesla should locate those drivers and turn OFF AP. Completely. They don't deserve the privilege of using AP. Period!

Haggy | 16 dicembre 2015

It's not up to Tesla to tell people what to do with cars they already own any more than they can limit the speed of those who get speeding tickets.

The problem comes when they make and put up misleading videos. I still find articles about a car that supposedly was steering into traffic, only to have the driver jerk it back, when that particular video showed nothing of the sort. The driver shouldn't have been using autopilot on that road, but it gave the driver a false alarm when the driver was apparently on the proper side, the driver seemed to overreact with the steering when forcing it out of auto steer, and there was no way to tell from the video that the car did anything wrong. I've had times when things were a bit scary, but the car got things right. It was closer to the wall than I would have been on my own in a narrow lane, but was nowhere near in danger of hitting anything. Had I been making a video with one hand and jerked the steering back with the other, it would have looked as if the car almost killed me, when the real problem would have been holding a video camera.

Tropopause | 16 dicembre 2015

UnshodBob,

I agree! How does one "pump the breaks"?

Folks, don't worry. Tesla will make things right. We're dealing with an ever-evolving Tesla automobile. If you don't like today's software, wait for tomorrow's.

j.kankesan | 16 dicembre 2015

Tesla, AP can be restricted to the adjusted speed limit set by the driver. I have my speed warning set to 20+ kph above posted speed limit.

In Canada, this is the safest speed to drive on a highway. Any slower, and you will have 18 wheelers breathing down your throat.

Besides, restricting speed limits ain't gonna stop idiots doing stupid things. The AP should not be activatable if the seat is unoccupied. If someone decides to fool the system by placing a heavy object to offset this safety, then I am sure no can blame the tech to be unsafe.

Please don't restrict the AP speed. This will almost surely make my use of this feature devoid forever. And I have thoroughly enjoyed it thus far. It has been very safe and reliable.

Darthamerica | 16 dicembre 2015

I think for sure it should be restricted to only operating when a person is in the driver's seat. No issue with that. I'm also okay with it not being used on surface streets and residential areas. The danger of cross traffic and pedestrians is too great until the technology improves. The same for undivided single lane highways. Perhaps some SW will be able to do this with current HW.

On the freeway however, the posted speed limit is not always reliable. But if I'm Tesla's legal team, I would want to avoid allowing the car to exceed a posted speed limit on Autopilot. Not only is it a violation, at some point you are "instructing" the vehicle to maintain control at an unsafe speed. Legally it doesn't matter if everyone else is doing it. In a collision you'll be liable and some attorney will certainly find a way to extend that liability to Tesla. I can see some buffer about the limit being available for conditions when you are likely to impede the flow of traffic. But how to implement this in SW in such a way to protect Tesla is not an easy to solve problem.

prp | 17 dicembre 2015

If any of you every visit Australia, most of the country has a near zero tolerance to speeding. It's considered an important form of government revenue. So if you visit and learn to drive on the correct side of the road, don't speed, although we would I'm sure value your financial contribution to our national account.

TC56 | 17 dicembre 2015

If AP software was in production status not BETA, then maybe I could understand people getting upset. But it's BETA, implying that they haven't got rid of all the "features you hope are not in the next release" or bugs. Given the fact that Tesla are rightly proud of their safety record, the actions of a few people that haven't thought through the potential unintended consequences of their actions jeopardise the Tesla safety record. No restrictions have been placed on the manual operation of the car, and plenty of people purchased it then. If you put beta software on a computer, you are warned that problems or crashes could occur due to the maturity of the code. Just because their hasn't been an accident yet due to an AP malfunction doesn't mean that potentially there won't be one. Let's face it, "users" often come up with scenarios that product testers haven't anticipated. That's why there are beta test programmes. Just saying, while AP is in Beta there are going to be "glitches" and those "glitches" won't just affect you, they will affect other road users around you, potentially. It will be interesting to see what the production code feature set looks like.

Mike Tuccelli | 17 dicembre 2015

@JayRo
I taught mathematics and can read so when I see 75 MPH, I do 75 if weather conditions permit and I'm sorry if I offended you and others for driving at the speed limit in the right lane. I don't block traffic in the left lane.

So what is your recommendation? Seems the rational folks want Tesla to have the AP be programmed to go up to the prevailing flow of traffic and not faster as a compromise? I'm in favor of this.

On another note, I've done 14 years of Florida to Alaska motorcycle trips, with having done some in just 5 days one way without exceeding the speed limit so perhaps relaxing and enjoying the scenery without speeding may reduce stress, blood pressure and add to quality of life. All this staying in right lane and not blocking traffic and not one driver flipping me the finger in 14 years.

For future AP enhancements, I hope Tesla can program it to automatically slow down to, say, 45 MPH before actually reaching the 45 zone. Right now, by the time the car indicates 45 MPH on the screen, you would still be doing 55 MPH from the previous zone. There are/were cops in Waldo and Lawtey, Florida watching for this. Proactive, not reactive.

Haggy | 17 dicembre 2015

If any of you every visit Australia, most of the country has a near zero tolerance to speeding. It's considered an important form of government revenue. So if you visit and learn to drive on the correct side of the road, don't speed, although we would I'm sure value your financial contribution to our national account.

I've been to Australia and driven there. I stuck to speed limits. I also wiped my windshield each and every time I turned a corner. The speed thing is more of an issue for places where there's a margin built into the system.

Roamer@AZ USA | 17 dicembre 2015

@Haggy, It is still a joke in my family that you can tell I am about to turn when the wipers go on. Three weeks driving a campa in New Zealand and I was still turning on the wipers for turns. I did however learn what "judder bars" are on the first day out and never forgot that lesson.

Back to speed limits and highway driving. What makes freeways safe and efficient is when the wisdom of the crowd is accepted and everyone works to keep a smooth flow. Going to far below or above the speed of the traffic flow is extremely dangerous to everyone on the road. A smooth flow is best for all not an arbitrary sign number.

hcwhy | 17 dicembre 2015

Last time I was in New Zealand, it was a bit discomforting to be driving on the wrong side of the road, so I was driving slow enough that I would pull over occasionally to let the drivers I was holding up get by. I still managed to get three speeding tickets in thirty days. Sometimes you just can't win.

Haggy | 17 dicembre 2015

From what I've been told, in Australia and NZ, many imports have the signal on the left so I suppose another advantage of a Tesla down under is that the signal is on the same side as in the UK. I never had a problem in the UK or Ireland, and in places like Japan I stayed out of cars.

Roamer@AZ USA | 17 dicembre 2015

@hcwhy, I think the preferred term is opposite side of the road......

Pages