Forums

Model 3: extended range battery pack

Model 3: extended range battery pack

Hi everybody,

is it possible that will be available a Model 3 version with more than 215 miles ?

For expample, a battery pack with 300 miles...

Different version like Model S/X... 60, 75, 90

Thanks
Christian

SCCRENDO | 20 luglio 2016

Yes. That's what I'm hoping for.

Rocky_H | 20 luglio 2016

That is almost certain to be the case. At least two choices of range would be probably the most obvious option the car could have.

gordon.photographer | 20 luglio 2016

I'd hope so otherwise i'll be cancelling my order. I'm expecting close to or over 300 mile range by time it is actually available to buy

Badbot | 20 luglio 2016

I hope you are correct but I suspect 80KW will be max

Ivan_c213 | 20 luglio 2016

Hopefully a 100kw battery. Please make it happen Elon Musk.

leskchan | 20 luglio 2016

I would speculate the same that Model 3 will have a longer range option for 2 reasons. Using Model S as the baseline comparison, 60(75)kWh battery for 215 miles.

1. Oz-to-oz, Model S is a bigger/heavier car than Model 3, therefore Model 3 will be more fuel efficient. So the same 60kWh battery will get you longer range, in theory. In Model 3, since it is smaller, it can only fit a smaller battery pack, say 45kWh for 215 miles. Also smaller pack equals lower costs, to maintain $35K starting price.

2. New-to-old battery technology. Model 3 is speculated to use newer higher density battery pack. So the same 60kWh battery can be fitter in a smaller body. So Model 3 can be fitted with a higher capacity battery for say 300 miles range as an upgrade.

Again, just speculation.

CC396 | 20 luglio 2016

Hoping at least 300+ miles per charge by the time the Model 3 is officially released.

Red Sage ca us | 20 luglio 2016

The Model S and Model X both have greater range than the Tesla Roadster. Do not be surprised when a version of the Tesla Model ☰ has greater range than today's Model S and Model X from the outset. Elon Musk has already stated that the 'sweet spot' for range is 250-to-350 miles. Whaddaya know? 300 miles happens to be right in the middle of that. Plus, the Performance iterations of cars from direct competitors are in the 300-to-350 mile EPA rated range: AUDI S4 (338), BMW M3 (300), Cadillac ATS-V (304). The efficiency of Tesla Third Generation vehicle technology will allow for a spectacular range per given battery pack capacity.

lar_lef | 21 luglio 2016

300 range a big selling point-- though 3 doesn't have a selling problem.

Ehninger1212 | 21 luglio 2016

I think it's going to start somewhere around 50 kWh base model. Then a 75D range topping. Just throwing numbers out. I would probably opt for the smallest battery pack with the dual motor option. If the base model, which we have heard is going to be under 60kwh, can achieve 215miles minimum. Wouldn't it be safe to say a 75D could do close to 300?

Tstolz | 21 luglio 2016

I agree with Ehninger1212 .. the base battery is probably just a 50kw .. but maybe software limited to that as 50kw is likely all they need to achieve 215 miles. The upgraded battery will likely have 300+ miles range. MS and X can stay ahead by increasing range to 350 miles. There is little point to going too big with the battery ... I mean really .. how often do most of us need it?

Ehninger1212 | 21 luglio 2016

Exactly, this is the average person car. ill bet they have the top model make it to 300. then put even bigger battery into the S/X to distinguish/ justify the price difference more. maybe 110kwh on those?

eandmjep | 24 luglio 2016

I think the 215 mile estimate (minimum I know) in a lighter car could be done with a 55 kWh battery I think as with the S and X that the base M3 will have something like a 70 kWh software limited to 55 unless you opt to pay for the upgrade. Would make sense for a Mass market production car and just crank them out. Then the specials would be those wanting the larger pack already unrestricted. I hope the cost for the upgrades by then will reflect the savings in production per kWh coming from the Gigafactory.

bb0tin | 24 luglio 2016

I think the 215 mile estimate (minimum I know) in a lighter car could be done with a 45 kWh battery I think as with the S and X that the base M3 will have something like a 80 kWh software limited to 65 unless you opt to pay for the upgrade. Would make sense for a Mass market production car and just crank them out. Then the specials would be those wanting the larger pack already unrestricted. I hope the cost for the upgrades by then will reflect the savings in production per kWh coming from the Gigafactory.

bb0tin | 24 luglio 2016

I think the 215 mile estimate (minimum I know) in a lighter car could be done with a 50 kWh battery I think as with the S and X that the base M3 will have something like a 75 kWh software limited to 60 unless you opt to pay for the upgrade. Would make sense for a Mass market production car and just crank them out. Then the specials would be those wanting the larger pack already unrestricted. I hope the cost for the upgrades by then will reflect the savings in production per kWh coming from the Gigafactory.

mntlvr23 | 24 luglio 2016

@eandmjep - I would like that

skygraff | 24 luglio 2016

Successful prediction is just a matter of hedging your bets, eh?

Badbot | 24 luglio 2016

WOW TRIPLE post or single post with BB plagiarizing a double?

bb0tin | 24 luglio 2016

@skygraff
Yip. I thought I would try the master's technique

@Badbot
You need to look up what plagiarism is. I was not plagiarizing.

Badbot | 24 luglio 2016

OK sorry cut and paste

grashelm | 24 luglio 2016

@Badbot
You need to look up what plagiarism is. I was not plagiarizing.

Well duh you weren't plagiarizing, but whatever point you were attempting to make by only changing kWh numbers failed miserably. Your posts merely came across as douschey!

bb0tin | 24 luglio 2016

@grashelm
The point is that the numbers given in the original post were made up out of thin air, and provided nothing of value to the forum.
I can also make up numbers out of thin air, and gave two examples.
I expect every one of the thousands of readers of this forum could make up numbers out of thin air.
We should encourage everyone to post their made up numbers, and not restrict the fun to just a few.

codyb12889 | 24 luglio 2016

Sorry if I missed something but where is everyone getting the idea that the M3 will be lighter than the S or X?

The only things I can find that back this up are total speculation which makes sense considering that the final design of the M3 has not even been released.

I feel like the primary battery on the M3 will be a 75kwh battery based on the move they made with the newer cheaper MS in an attempt to unify battery production. If this is indeed the case than the single charge range would be a minimum with the 75kwh unlocked would be 249 (matching the current MS).

With some small battery improvements, weight reductions, and motor optimizations then 300 mile per charge range with some unlocks on the M3 definitely does become a possibility.

I am only looking for a 200+ mile range per charge as anywhere that would take me more than 2 full charges to get there (roughly 400 miles) I would much rather fly. No matter how good the M3 rides I just really don't like spending a full day in the car. I would also prefer keep the miles on the car at a minimum as adapting to resale value on EVs is going to be an interesting enough process.

codyb12889 | 24 luglio 2016

Sorry meant to say lighter than the S as obviously it will be lighter than the X. We really need the ability to edit.

Badbot | 24 luglio 2016

BB were you rejected as hall monitor?

bb0tin | 24 luglio 2016

@codyb12889
You said "Sorry if I missed something but where is everyone getting the idea that the M3 will be lighter than the S or X?"
Because it will be about 30% smaller than the S

You said "I feel like the primary battery on the M3 will be a 75kwh"
Tesla have already said it will be less than 60kWh

bb0tin | 24 luglio 2016

@Badbot
I am a Hall monitor

JeffreyR | 24 luglio 2016

@codyb wrote, "Sorry if I missed something but where is everyone getting the idea that the M3 will be lighter than the [Model] S?"

Elon has described the Model ≡ as being 20% lighter and/or 20% smaller than the Model S. Most recently I have seen him refer to it being 20% lighter. If you Google it, you will see lots of references to the 20%. In my "Tesla Advantage" post I linked to many other posts at the bottom. The one you might find most interesting is "Model 3 vs. Model S: How will they be different?" since it outlines a lot of what you are asking about. Some is speculation, but a lot of it pulls in info from the first Reveal.

What I am curious about is the ability for Tesla to easily and efficiently manufacture under-populated batteries. We know from JB that the M≡ battery will be designed differently than MS/MX ones. If they can make it easy to include only 2/3 (or 3/4 you get the idea) of the sub-packs to save on costs while maintaining the structural integrity of the pack that would save a lot. The fact that a MS/MX battery is easier to limit by software seems like it would be too expensive when you increase production ten-fold.

Tesla does not break down sales numbers by battery size. Maybe people are willing to upgrade batteries first, so the actual number of smallest battery packs is small enough that the difference is negligible (80K production this year, so maybe only 10-20K are the smallest). We know that many Tesla owners are willing to upgrade when big new features come out. Maybe including the full battery is a way to future-proof the CPO Program cars for the inevitable jump in battery capacity when the Gigafactory comes online. I'm sure more than a few M≡ reservations were converted to MS-60 orders when it was re-introduced.

One thing Tesla can be sure of is JB's Law of gradual battery improvement, usually estimated at 5%-7%. So maybe more expensive fully populated but software limited batteries are still the way to go. With so many reservations for the Model ≡ demand is definitely not the issue.

bb0tin | 25 luglio 2016

'"JB''s Law" is not something that Tesla "can be sure of".
It is only a prediction based on average past improvements.

Red Sage ca us | 25 luglio 2016

JB Straubel has said at least twice that he expects an improvement in energy density of about 40% between the battery cells used in the Model S in 2012, and those used in the Model ☰ in 2017. That would be similar to the improvement he observed from the battery cells used in the Tesla Roadster in 2008 to those used in the Model S in 2012. This is 'only' a prediction based upon the statements of the guy who designed the entire battery management system used at Tesla Motors.

Rocky_H | 25 luglio 2016

@Jeffrey_R, Quote: "Elon has described the Model ≡ as being 20% lighter and/or 20% smaller than the Model S. Most recently I have seen him refer to it being 20% lighter."

I don't think so. I have always seen all of the official representatives from Tesla say "smaller", but I have never seen any of them say "lighter". Do you have a reference for that? I have obviously seen a lot of regular people on the internet just mix them up and say one or the other though, with no basis.

I don't take this assumption of lighter as necessarily correct. Tesla has mentioned that the Model 3 will probably use steel construction, which is much heavier than aluminum. So there is the smaller physical size, but there is the heavier material. We probably can't really know yet which will be the more significant factor in the weight outcome.

grashelm | 25 luglio 2016

@bb0tin

Regardless of your rationale, I stick by my original post that your posts were douschey!

bb0tin | 25 luglio 2016

@Red Sage ca us
You said "JB Straubel has said at least twice that he expects an improvement in energy density of about 40% between the battery cells used in the Model S in 2012, and those used in the Model ☰ in 2017."
Would you provide a link please.

You said "This is 'only' a prediction based upon the statements of the guy who designed the entire battery management system used at Tesla Motors."
No it is not. It is an unsubstantiated statement made by you.

PS:
I notice that you are still not substantiating your claim made on this thread
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/more-range#comment-910257
Your excuse is that you are ignoring me. Actually, you are ignoring everyone on the forum who you hoped would read, and accept, your claim in the first place. You should either substantiate your claim, or withdraw it. Your claim is a load of bollocks.

bb0tin | 25 luglio 2016

@grashelm
Going by your posts on this forum so far, I do not think you are capable of ascertaining that, or do you not recognise what the tenor of your posts are?

grashelm | 25 luglio 2016

@bb0tin

Yah nah bro....all one can say with regards to the tenor of your posts is....what a sad guy!

bb0tin | 25 luglio 2016

@grashelm
To each their own. I think a sad guy is someone who keeps posting their negative opinions about people, rather than contributing anything useful, thinking that anyone should care.

JeffreyR | 26 luglio 2016

@Rocky_H | July 25, 2016
I was surprised by the "lighter" term too. I think it was the keynote video in France. I'll see if I can find it. Maybe they are trying to avoid the perception that it's a "small" car.

JeffreyR | 26 luglio 2016

Here is the talk I thought it was;
Elon Musk Conference at Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne Wednesday, December 2, 2015 at 18h.
https://www.univ-paris1.fr/services/communication/evenements/conference-...

But, I remember Elon and JB were there together so may not be it. Good video anyways.

jordanrichard | 26 luglio 2016

"300" I think is more of a psychological barrier to make people feel better about an EV being comparable to an ICE car. Since Mar '14, I have driven my MS nearly 50,000 miles, and it never had a 300 mile range. So obviously an EV is an out and out replacement for a ICE car.

dd.micsol | 26 luglio 2016

I'd like to see 400+mile range battery pack. Yup-I'd buy it.

Red Sage ca us | 27 luglio 2016

dd.micsol: If someone is not a 400+ mile driver, then a 400+ mile battery pack is of no consequence. I know I used to be a 500+ mile driver, but that was a long time ago. I make lavatory runs much more often now than in my youth. Luckily, I'm the only one to notice, because passengers are more likely to demand an immediate stop than I am... But this means stops are often after barely driving 350 miles.