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Sensorgate

Sensorgate

You know, you gotta feel bad for Elon, George and the others. The have given us an award-winning, 300-mi EV, chock full of technology, and draped in some of the sexiest sheet metal out there, and they have spent the last week getting raked over the coals over parking sensors.

Hopefully, they found humor in this.

O

Kleist | 2013年8月7日

+1 omarsultan

TommyBoy | 2013年8月7日

Well in reality they sell 400 cars per week and there are maybe 15 people really complaining about this issue vocally on the forums and with letters to George. It's the same people posting multiple times within a thread and across several threads.

It may be visible here on the forum but since they announced the new pricing a week ago they've already sold another 800 cars and they are moving on to Model X details.

blaquito | 2013年8月7日

could not agree more...I am amazed at how angry people are over a technology that can be rendered obsolete... by looking!!!

fluxemag | 2013年8月7日

I have to admit I have had a few laughs over this. I'm cancelling my order because of freakin parking sensors! I guess never having them before makes it a non issue for me, since I never lost my ability to park.

AmpedRealtor | 2013年8月7日

Someone is selling their 8 day old P85+ at a loss in order to order a new vehicle with parking sensors. He said he is "voting with his wallet", meaning that he is willing to take a loss of thousands of dollars in order to obtain a $500 option. In my world, voting with your wallet means not buying a product from one company, instead rewarding another company with your business. Seems like the world has gone a little upside down.

Nobody is making a big deal about the new fog lights, or the new cold weather package. No. All of the uproar appears to be over parking sensors! Elon promised the new fog lights to a lot of folks who already received their vehicles, I'm shocked that I'm not hearing more about that... Am I the only one who thinks that parking sensors have inadvertently become a poster child for something other than what they really are? lol

Ohms.Law | 2013年8月7日

Let's not forget the HEARTBREAK of losing the cup holder clinchers. Almost a show-stopper for some.

Ohms.Law | 2013年8月7日

Clinchers?

Ohms.Law | 2013年8月7日

Damn auto-correct.

Cinchers

AmpedRealtor | 2013年8月7日

I heard the P85+ comes with butt clinchers... lol

Ohms.Law | 2013年8月7日

I wonder how much it will cost to retrofit? Man, had I known they were going to come out with butt cinchers I would have waited. Bummer

Rick H | 2013年8月7日

I agree it is an over reaction to cancel your order due to this. At the same time my car was in the design phase at the old prices. I was lucky that I ordered it when I did. At the same time for me to pay an additional $4,000 to get a $500 option seems unfair and unreasonable. I understand that they may want to charge a bit more to the lucky few like me and that would be reasonable. This is an important safety feature that not only protects the car, but people who may walk by. I just wish that they came up with a retro fit price at the same time and charged that to those in design.

elguapo | 2013年8月7日

Look, no one complains when they buy a 2012 car and then in 2013 it's got some new technology. The issue here is that TM is not on a model year schedule, so updates come every month or so (mid production). I think that's really what frustrates people. Would I like the sensors? Absolutely. Would I have waited to order had I known they were coming at date certain? Yep. However, we all know TM is constantly working to better the car and if you place your order today, you have to be comfortable with what you're getting.

I ordered in March and took delivery in May. No sensors. No fog lights (I was part of "Fog Lightgate" mid production). That also means I got other items (like lighting and dual charger) for less and I got to drive the car for an extra 3+ months instead of waiting. We all know options and pricing are subject to change.

My ONLY request from TM here is when they do all the preparation to roll out a new option, like sensors, they clearly communicate whether there will be a retrofit available and a rough timeframe. They don't have to give a cost yet, but I feel like we wouldn't have 5 threads on this if they just said, "Yes, here are parking sensor for new models and YES, we will over a retrofit program within three months."

elguapo | 2013年8月7日

"offer" not "over"

carlk | 2013年8月7日

Is it just a $500 parking sensor? Well Tesla offered it for $500 but the value to individual buyers can be different. If someone thinks it's worth $2500 then he/she will pay that much for it. Nothing is wrong with that. We buy the car for personal enjoyment not as an investment.

Kleist | 2013年8月7日

@Rick H - $500 is under priced for a stand alone option, stand alone it should be $2-3k.

hsadler | 2013年8月7日

Parking sensors....

Will most likely be available when you trade in your current MS next year.

David Trushin | 2013年8月7日

Two fundamental laws of business are:

1. Don't overhang the market

2. Never let your competition get their nose under the tent flap.

I think Tesla is doing an adequate job of adhering to these. They have to hold back news of new features until the last minute, or they will find new sales drying up until the new features are ready. So people will be surprised and disappointed and some angry about it. That's the nature of law 1. I have at times bought a computer only to find out the next day that a newer more powerful computer is just being announced.

Second, they must rise to the challenge of doing the important upgrades for existing customers or they allow the customer to evaluate the competition. When I was in telecom we dreaded to "forklift upgrade" for our systems because the customer says that if I have to remove all your equipment to upgrade, I may as well get the competitors stuff in there. So if they have no path to upgrading the most wanted features, they will be violating law 2.

The most disheartening thing about the discussions is not that people are complaining, it's the immediate reaction. The cars and features are not going anywhere. Why not exhibit a little patience and find out what the companies plans are.

ThomasK | 2013年8月7日

Doesn't this pretty much signal that Tesla has moved on past the early adopter phase to the beginning of the "mainstream" phase of customer adoption? I don't feel as much of the passionate advocacy for the company, more a "what can you do for me" attitude. I've said this before, and I don't expect anyone to change their views, but it's quite a different thing from putting your money down when the first page of the deposit basically says, "hey y'all, you may never see this money again" and waiting 3 years, to the current mindset. I suppose I am over-projecting the views of a few to the overall customer base, but it is a telltale of sorts...

CalabasasKid | 2013年8月7日

My gut tells me that TM will tell all of us who replaced their cheaper orders with the more expensive orders to just relax and take comfort knowing that an eventual retrofit would likely cost about as much as the premium we paid to get the new configuration anyways.

earlyretirement | 2013年8月7日

@CalabasasKid,

Yep. Actually that is essentially what they did kind of hint if you read between the lines. When the Senior VP tells you that they aren't quite sure IF there will be a retrofit option and if so, it will be "QUITE Expensive" you better realize that you better imagine what "QUITE Expensive" means coming from Tesla.

No, it still didn't leave a good taste in my mouth paying thousands more when my car didn't even go into production yet. But they had the "take it or leave it" attitude. And at least I had the option to choose to add it, even if it was more.

Ultimately it just came down to me thinking the retrofit option won't be cheap or easy contrary to come imagination from people that already have Model S cars.

Jamon | 2013年8月7日

+1 ThomasK - this definitely feels like we're in the "mainstream" phase now.

@omar - yes, I think this is the greatest car ever. But no, I don't feel bad for Elon, George, and others. Their goal is to create the best car ever. The early adopters drank the Cool-Aid long ago, but many mainstream consumers are still not convinced. The team at Tesla needs to learn from this experience, and IMPROVE COMMUNICATION. This issue could have been so much better if they had better communication internally and with their customers. They have had a lot of examples of poor communication followed by customer uproar in the 2 years since I made my reservation. Every time I expect them to learn from it and improve in the future, but so far that hasn't been happening. They haven't paid a price because so many people want to buy this car - but eventually it will bite them. I hope they work out the problems before that happens.

joehuber | 2013年8月7日

Amped

That guy who's selling his 8 day old PerfS at a loss has said nothing about buying another one with Parking Sensors.

He's simply pouting that it's no longer the latest and greatest config. Even though it came with EXACTLY what he ordered, he's some how miffed at Tesla for not including parking sensors. Simply a CHILDISH reaction.

It's been known for quite sometime that the European models included PDC, so it didn't take a crystal ball to foresee that they'd likely become available in the US before too long. So anyone who thought PDC was important to them should simply have waited to order their Tesla. And anyone who went ahead and ordered their Tesla anyway should take responsibility for THEIR decision to get a Tesla without PDC.

All the childish whining about this from the spoiled and entitled crowd is frankly embarrassing!

earlyretirement | 2013年8月7日

I agree that most reasonable people knew that PDC was coming, especially because European models were rumored to have them. I think if the guy who is selling his feels the need to sell it he can and should without being called childish. That's his prerogative.

I knew when I ordered it was coming out soon and I rolled the dice. The only thing I was miffed at is that although my car didn't even go into production I had to pay $5,000 more for it. But no, I don't feel that people who had cars already gone into production or already delivered have the same room to complain like those of us who were in the pipeline where their car didn't even enter production.

And no, I don't think paying only $500 was the answer either but I don't think it was appropriate to get your entire car repriced. But that is a moot point now.

Theresa | 2013年8月7日

Okay I know what parking sensors are but this PDC term I cannot figure out. Can someone let me know what the definition is?

earlyretirement | 2013年8月7日

Park Distance Control. Same thing.

TommyBoy | 2013年8月7日

PDC is important to me. The first time my wife backs into a pole or hits a low stump in the front and my deductible is due and my insurance rates triple they more than pay for themselves.

Did you see that thread at TMC about all of those Model S's with their front bumpers missing at that auto body shop? Somebody said it was probably because they were all getting PDC installed so the OP asked the shop. The shop said all of the Model S's were in there for the same thing - it's a large car with a big front end and everybody was hitting curbs, stumps, poles, etc. There had to be at least 10 of them in there. The PDC may not prevent all of those from happening but I'd like to believe a great many will be stopped.

They are absolutely critical to me. This car is almost as big as a 750Li and to drive that without PDC would be insane. PDC will be a valuable feature for resale value as well.

omarsultan.ca.us | 2013年8月7日

I have to admit, while not a deal killer, I will look hard at sensors for the front--I'd really like to avoid running the nose into one of those parking lot bumper things. One the back, I am less interested, since the camera seems like a better solution. For that matter, I would punt on the PDCs altogether if Tesla said a front camera was in the works.

O

earlyretirement | 2013年8月7日

Yep Tommy. I think it's fine if people don't want them or don't need them. No problem. But I don't think they can dispute that it IS an important thing for many people (as evidenced by all these threads and posts).

Funny last night my wife and I went to dinner with some friends. We went to their house first and then they drove to the restaurant. I told them that I ended up getting my car reconfigured and paid $5,000 more for the PDC. They questioned if they would do the same thing.

Well it was hilarious because after dinner we come to his car (new SUV) and while he did have a rear camera there was no PDC and no front sensor at all. He got boxed in to the point he was going back and forth many times and was afraid to hit his bumper. I laughed and said, see this is an instance where the PDC would be helpful. We all got a good laugh.

The car is very large as you mentioned. Long and wide. I think that's great that so many people can justify that they don't need/want it. But I think the # of posts speak for themselves how valuable and important it is for many people.

wcalvin | 2013年8月7日

Maybe a bargain front-only parking sensor aftermarket?

dwnola | 2013年8月7日

It's been said before, but anybody who has been reading these forums for the last several months knew that parking sensors were coming. I ordered my MS in June, knowing that if I waited then I might be able to get the sensors. I didn't want to wait & ordered anyway. Took delivery four days ago and I'm not the least bit sorry. With any car, there are always new features that you'd like to have, and all new cars becomes incrementally obsolete almost immediately. I don't feel entitled to know what or when Tesla intends to introduce new features in the future any more than I thought that GM, Honda or Infiniti owed me that information.

As a teenager, I learned to drive, parallel park and thread narrow New Orleans streets, in my grandmother's 1968 Cadillac Sedan deVille. Without parking sensors, tilting side mirrors or a high definition rear camera. The Caddy was 2-1/2 feet longer than the MS, and the "technology" was a button that locked/unlocked all the doors at once! That was the future in 1968. MS is the future today. Yes, my NEXT car will have parking sensors, and more that we can't even imagine today. In the meantime, it's a thrill and honor to own MS.

S4WRXTTCS | 2013年8月7日

They weren't raked over the coals for the parking sensors. They were raked over the coals for a bunch of really questionable price hikes on options.

Tons of people (including me) were waiting for the parking sensors, and weren't expecting those price increases. I wasn't too mad because I wasn't really impacted, but I could totally understand being pissed because you were waiting for the right time only to have the rug pulled out from under you.

Car companies live and die on loyalty. There is absolutely nothing better for a car company then having people obsessively keeping up with you in hopes of buying one. The worst thing you can do is alienate them because you've likely lost them for a long time.

I understand those that were angered more than fanboi's who blindly support a company.

Tesla is a young company, and they have done and will do some pretty incredibly stupid things. But, they're not so young that you have to minimize your expectations.

It would be a huge disservice to Tesla not to get angry with them when they pull stupid stunts.

Tesla isn't some child who you can't get angry with, or that you have to hand hold. This isn't prison food where you can't insult the cook.

Give them hell when they raise the price of an option from $900 to $2500 when they're not clear about what changed.

Make fun of them for not being able to get Fog lights right the first time. I mean fog lights? Just how hard could that be?

Cars are about a love/hate relationship. If you don't hate some aspects of the Telsa then I seriously question whether you really know it well enough to like it for what it is.

Kleist | 2013年8月7日

@S4WRXTTCS - don't buy options. Base price is the same or lower. The price increase was known before, so it all just hot air.
The only misstep imo is the parking sensors are $4k ( you need the tech package ) but listed so it appears to be a $500 option.

justineet | 2013年8月7日

@kleist....I don't consider it a misstep because it's norm in the car industry some options come packaged along with tech package. One option that normally comes with tech package is parking sensors.

S4WRXTTCS | 2013年8月7日

@Kleist

Known before? It was just some rumor that no one knew exactly what it would be. In fact I thought it was started because Tesla had some early August limit as the cutoff for old pricing of the Air suspension (if you had your car on hold). There was nothing official from Tesla. I don't really care about not being warned, but I do care about constant every couple months price increases.

The parking Sensors need the wiring harness that come with the tech package. So the misstep is having a wiring harness as part of the tech package. You also can't have fog lights without the tech package.

Base price is the same, but they included the HID lamps and the HD lights from the tech package without really changing the pricing of the tech package ($250 doesn't really count). I interpreted this move as them trying to cater to more buyers by sweeting the low end. They are doing so by getting higher margins various options including options that used to be in the tech package (the interior lighting for example). While I don't like the increases I can understand them with exception to the upgraded stereo because of the lack of information.

AmpedRealtor | 2013年8月7日

Imagine what's going to happen in another 6 months when Tesla releases adaptive cruise control, lane keep assist, blind spot detection and who knows what else. Then 6 months after that comes the HUD and front end camera... then... will the tumult ever end? LOL

dborn @nsw.au | 2013年8月7日

In Sydney, Australia, I can get after market color coded front or rear parking sensors FITTED for $250! That is, $500 total for front and rear. Now, in Australia, things like this are generally much more expensive than in the USA. Our labour costs are very much higher on an hourly basis.
I don't know why people are thinking factory fitted (while under construction) PDC'S at $500 is cheap? I would expect them to be far less, given that the hardware would be bulk purchased at wholesale prices. The actual fitting cost is negligible if the wiring harness is prepared, and the electronics of the vehicle equipped for it. The harness is obviously there since it was prepared for European cars, and so is the electronics. The plastic is already embossed for drilling, and the metal bumper bar has had appropriate perforations from the beginning.

Tesla is nickel and diming this option!!

AmpedRealtor | 2013年8月7日

@ dborn - don't forget that Tesla's factory sensors will be integrated seamlessly into the screens and interface whereas after market sensors will require the installation of some ugly interior notification unit that will take away from the car's elegance and brilliant interface. I would never opt for after market sensors unless they were a Tesla retrofit. Remember, you aren't just paying for the cost of the hardware and labor - you are also paying for the software development and continued future updates to the feature functionality, bug fixes, etc.

I doubt Tesla will ever open up its software for third party hardware manufacturers to use, but one can hope.

justineet | 2013年8月7日

@dborn....factory parking sensors with tech package is industry norm especially with premium cars........nothing unusual here. Industry NORM! When you buy the tech package u r getting lots more of other staff. The parking sensor addition is only costing u 500 bucks which is integrated with the car electronic 19" control console unlike the aftermarket deal.

earlyretirement | 2013年8月7日

@ Amped. BINGO. Exactly. That's why I'd never go with after market third party PDC. Just doesn't make sense to me. Kind of like when I see Model S drivers that didn't get the Tech package with Tom Tom GPS units on their dashboard. LOL. Sure, it might work but it ain't pretty to see. (And yes I've seen that on more than 1 occasion).

I don't really care about the lane assist, adaptive cruise control, blind spot detection. I can live without those things. So it won't bother me if/when Tesla comes out with those things.

AmpedRealtor | 2013年8月7日

Wait, Tesla updated their screen to 19"?

...lol...

justineet | 2013年8月7日

meant 17"........

TeslaTap.com | 2013年8月7日

Ooooo - I want the 19". Can I retrofit it? Imagine all the extra stuff we can see with a larger display. Ok, have to cancel my order and wait for the 19" - I'm sure it will be announced any day now and I can't possibly live without it.

justineet | 2013年8月7日

19" too big.....not advisable....

David Trushin | 2013年8月7日

19" screen is just a hardware upgrade and these were promised for free!

Kleist | 2013年8月7日

@justineet - misstep only it created the impression for a few who didn't read the fine print and assumed they can get the existing car upgraded for some thing similar to $500 dollars not realizing a big part of the cost is hidden in the tech package. With the high anticipation of the PDC I would have presented that a little more careful.
@S4WRXTTCS - it is all about margins. $1500 for the pano roof was unrealistic. What bothers me is TM is giving us much more flexibility to configure the car - my car would be $10k less today - and new options, but some folks try hard to find something wrong. The people who are complaing are the ones that want it all and yes, they have to pay a little more. TM caters to a very divers group of people... including Honda Civic owner, Prius owners, Passat, etc... but the folks that replace the Bentley cry foul.
So I am happy with the re-pricing of the options, my wifes car to be ordered just got a whole lot cheaper - good that I waited.

mrspaghetti | 2013年8月7日

@kleist: Well said. The Model S may be low maintenance, but it seems that some hi-end luxury car buyers are very high maintenance indeed.

hsadler | 2013年8月7日

After market Sensor that displays on an iPhone App? (wireless)
That will alleviate any permanent fears of a blight on Tesla's interior.

S4WRXTTCS | 2013年8月7日

@Kleist - I think a big part of what happened was a bunch of options were priced in a way that didn't give a lot of margin. Maybe it was a tactic on Tesla's part, or a mistake. So the last 3 -4 months have been this huge series of corrections. The corrections mainly hit the higher end folks so its not too hard to understand why they're irked.

I'm pretty sure most of the price adjustments are done. I'd really be surprised to see anything rise within the next 3 months. I think they made the adjustments they needed to make, and we can go back to talking about glitches, SW upgrades, and chargers.

High end luxury car buyers ARE high maintenance, and they SHOULD be high maintenance. For this kind of money we should be critical, but reasonably critical. Complaining that we can't get an PDC upgrade on an existing car for cheap is a bit ridiculous. However, already having an existing reservation/order and wanting to add PDC without it causing the car to rise $4K to $5K isn't so ridiculous. Complaints about 66% increase in a price of an option aren't ridiculous either.

Kleist | 2013年8月7日

@S4WRXTTCS - "SHOULD be high maintenance"... Really ? I have an uncle that is high maintenance... he is totally wasting his time and the time of people around him. Life is too short for that kind of waste.
Critical on what was promised and how well delivered any time. However "that kind of money" doesn't entitle you to any features you think it should have, but were not in your contract.
OK Tesla threw you a curve ball - deal with it. I get these type of curve balls at least three times a day at work and once in a while in life - simple I deal with them as fast as they come.

justineet | 2013年8月8日

I think it's just wrong in the first place for anynone to expect factory parking sensors w/o the tech package......that's not the way it's done in the industry.....

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