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Model S battery degraded 20% at 100k miles

Model S battery degraded 20% at 100k miles

I’m over 100k on my miles now for my model S (60) and my max charge is 176 down from 215 when I purchased it 4 years ago. Also recently my battery died on a road trip while stating I had 28mi range remaining and was 8mi from the supercharger. 3 hours and $250 towing cost later, which Tesla did not cover the cost of, and I have no answers on why my car told me I had range when it didn’t. Has anyone else had issues like these?

Silver2K | 2018年7月10日

If a module failed, then your tow is covered under the 8/year infinite mile warranty on the drive units and battery within a 500 mile distance of a service center. If you were a schmuck and did not pay attention to your SOC, then you're covered under the schmuck warranty. The schmuck warranty is purely out of pocket

SamO | 2018年7月10日

@amanda,

Another poster has reported a similar problem where the car ran out of charge with 10+ miles of range left. Have the service center run diagnostics to check pack integrity. This may necessitate main pack battery repair/replacement.

lacy113 | 2018年7月10日

60D started with 220, 10k later its down to 206. I'm planning on calling customer service because this doesn't seem right. Never had a issue with the battery when its below 30 miles.

Mathew98 | 2018年7月10日

S60 never had a range of 214. It was 208 miles of RR when it was brand new. Sounds like a 15% degradation in 4 years. It's not great but within the limit.

If you hadn't run the battery down to 20 miles and charge it back to 100% several times in a row, the rate estimate would be out of balance.

Like @S2K mentioned, if a module or 2 failed, it would lose 16/32 miles. It would be part of the 8 years warranty. Keep us posted if they will honor the warranty.

Bighorn | 2018年7月10日

Had the same thing happen last week and I got a new battery and reimbursed for the tow. They can tell the state of your battery modules from afar. I had a brick go bad and the car shut down at 16% SOC.

jinglejeff | 2019年4月12日

I have a 2013 P85 S , love the car and take great care of it, it has a little over 60,000 miles on it. Drive normally most of the time. If I "charge it" to 75 to 80% and it shows 240 miles on the battery meter , the odometer shows I've actually gone 50 to 60% ( 120-150 true miles). But No rmore. What are my options. What will Tesla do for me. I did go into one of the stores. One of the representative said that they might get me a new battery? Because it's still under the warranty.

tes-s | 2019年4月12日

Do you have it set to "rated" miles, or "ideal" miles. Set it to rated and then post EXACTLY how many miles it reads at 80% (or 100%) charge.

murphyS90D | 2019年4月12日

Using the heater or air conditioner will reduce the number of miles that you will get. The heater is worse than the air conditioner.

Bighorn | 2019年4月12日

@jinglejeff
You driving efficiency determines how your real world miles compare to EPA rated miles. The car must be new to you, I'm guessing, if you think this is related to battery degradation.

murraypetera | 2019年4月12日

MS60 128k Miles. regular charge 176miles, max ~195miles but I never do a max charge since it takes so long.

murraypetera | 2019年4月12日

MS60 128k Miles. regular charge 176miles, max ~195miles but I never do a max charge since it takes so long.

freeewilly | 2019年4月12日

2013 MS60 <51,000 miles. 173@90%, 191@100%

jinglejeff | 2019年4月13日

Very much appreciate my fellow Teslaites getting back to me.Yes, I have had the car only 8 months. And I've been cognizant of the fact it's nearly impossible not to do "quick starts" every once in awhile (the car just won't let me do that!) it's not in its DNA. But of the 100's of times I have charged it and kept records. Over short distances and long.With tire pressure checked etc . I live in Florida . so never Heat ,A/C yes. I have never been able to get more than 65% of the "shown miles" on my battery. I look to you folks to school me.Please. When I see 40 miles left on my "meter" and the next station is 35 miles away. That probably means I've got left 30?.. Maybe Well you get it...

Mathew98 | 2019年4月13日

Rated range 101. If you want to achieve EPA mileage or the rated range on you dash, stick to the speed limit on the road. Jack rabbit starts, stop and go traffic, stumping on either pedal frequently, and driving it like you stole it would basically give you two third of the rated range.

Don't bother keeping records unless you like to follow the speed limit...

Bighorn | 2019年4月13日

@jingle
Just note your efficiency in Wh/m. In order for real miles to match rated miles, you need to achieve 278 Wh/m. If you look at one of your trip meters, you can see your average efficiency. For instance, if yours is 340 Wh/m, you simply calculate your range as a fraction of rated miles times 278/340, which is just under 82%. So if you show 40 miles remaining, you can likely make it 32 if you drive your average ways. Slow down and you should be able to make 40, but you probably shouldn't be tempting fate by going so low into the battery.

Silver2K | 2019年4月14日

Thanks to @Mathew98 my records are worthless. Damn speed limit gets me every time!

trisailor33 | 2019年4月15日

Teslas stopping with a "dead" battery even when the Range gauge shows many miles remaining confirms my observations about my car: The range calculations do not account for battery degradation. My Tesla shows a full charge range of around 285 miles. This is what my range would be if my battery had a usable capacity of a good, new battery, about 83 kwh (2016 S 90D). But my battery has a 72-73 kwh usable capacity and the diminished range that goes with that. I have never discharged the car below about 10% (and I did that only once), so I have avoided any unexpected shut-downs. On the other hand, when the display is set to SOC, the values correlate to energy consumed very linearly (at least down to 10% SOC). I suppose my Tesla could be the only one that has this problem. But that seems doubtful. If other Teslas do have this problem, the implications are significant. First: most all of the data out there about battery degradation are based on self-reported displays of full charge range. In fact, if I had not looked closely at real range and energy consumption, my cars display of range would suggest that I have little or no battery degradation.
What prompted me to look into this was that even as a new car (After 5 months as a dealer demo) had only about a 200 mile range. "It is because you wh/mile is too high" they told me. And that does indeed reduce my range. But when I normalize my range to the much lower rated wh/mile, my range is still too low. So I discovered that the car has a trip computer that counts kwh used over a trip. Using this and the SOC display I have been able to determine, repeatedly, that my cars battery has a usable capacity of 72-73 Kwh.
So the display of full charge range appears to assume that the battery has a normal amount of energy. The input variables for the calculation of range include; SOC, wh/mile, and battery capacity. SOC is usually calculated from voltage. The point is that full charge range uses some assumption or calculation of battery capacity. So to use the full charge range as a way to asses battery degradation assumes that the cars computer is using a correct value for battery capacity. These incidents of cars stopping with miles left on the range display proves that the computer, at least sometimes, uses an incorrect value.
The good news is that you can use more reliable raw data values provided by the car to determine battery capacity. These are "kwh used since last charge" and SOC at the beginning and end of a trip. I have described this simple calculation elsewhere.

Bighorn | 2019年4月15日

@trisailor

That’s not my experience. The range always reflected progressive degradation up to 11.5% at 197k miles.

Gray468 | 2019年4月25日

Jun 2017 Model S 100D HW2 31000 miles. Range mode almost always on.

Currently, 90% SOC predicts 297 miles, new it was 305 (rated would be 301.5). Took a 10,000 mile cross country road trip a month after I bought it. Have done three 3k mile road trips since. So more than 2/3 of the miles using superchargers.

Occasional charge to 100% on trips, every 3 months at home. On trips, usually charge to 90-95%. Home, charge to 70%.

So far, feels like the battery is doing fine. With a 95% charge, I can get 220+ real miles at cruising speeds in the 70-80 mph range (per posted limits) with 10 - 15% remaining.

My observation is that when charging, 90% (297 m) relates to the degraded full capacity (I currently show 300m at full charge). But I wonder if there are calcs the car does where SOC percent is related to the rated max range. How can the car know what the degraded max range is?

I also note that if it is warm and the roads are dry, SOC after 120 miles is generally 3-6% higher than the initial prediction (good) but 5-10% LOWER (scary) if it is a cool, wet and heavy rain drive. One particular route predicted 9% remaining to the Supercharger of choice. About half way there, it showed zero. I stopped at a closer one. I prefer to have the estimated SOC to be 30+% to have enough on the bank for detours and other unexpected scenarios.

TeslaTap.com | 2019年4月25日

@Gray (and others) - The general understanding is for degradation assessment, you have to drain the battery below 20% and charge to 100% and look at the SOC within an hour or two of reaching 100%. Not super easy to do, but what that does is recalibrate the SOC value to be accurate. Anything below 100% SOC is an estimate, and it is designed to slowly go down in value (rather than slowly going up, giving you a false sense off too much range). Using values like 90% at one time vs another time are not very useful to access real degradation.

Most of us no longer care or look at it as it really isn't that important. If you do a lot of long range driving, it may be worth it to have some feeling of the degradation, perhaps doing a recalibration every 1 or 2 years (i.e charging to 100%).

tes-s | 2019年4月25日

My 2013 S85 is now back up to 243 miles after some trips and 100% charging. Maybe a little exercise did the battery some good.

TMS | 2019年4月26日

@trisailor - I am in agreement with Bighorn on the functionality of the BMS. My 17' S75D with 30K now max range charges to 235. I have needed to charge to 100% multiple times over the course of the most recent week on some longer runs and even arrived one of the times with 2% showing on the dash and getting a notification from the car while connecting to the Supercharger that the battery was critically low and that A/C/Heat would be disabled until power is supplied. My vehicle while experiencing higher than desired degradation, does not die with percentage left on the battery.

@tes-s - I am looking for my lost 25 miles of range and have been doing some "exercising" over the last month in an attempt to find it. I am not optimistic as multiple range charges on a recent road trip still yield exactly the same 235. It does seem to be aware of and accurately provides power down to 1% or 2% so it seems there may be nothing wrong with any of the modules themselves. Maybe the original 259 was simply too optimistic.

TeslaTap.com | 2019年4月26日

@TMS - Do you know you're lifetime average W/mile number? I never reset my B trip so I can get that number. For my RWD S it's 327 W/mile, which is a bit high as I mostly drive around town.

The reason for asking is I wonder if the range is adjusted for the W/mile number. If you have a fairly high W/mile, perhap range is appropriately reduced. It hasn't been this way in the past, but it's possible there is a new calculation. I think the EPA S is range is rated for 300 W/mile. Drive harder or in cold conditions, that number is going to go up and effective range goes down.

TMS | 2019年4月26日

@TeslaTap.com - I do not unfortunately, because I reset that multiple times for various reasons before understanding the value of it. At any rate it shows 370 W/mile over the last 2700 miles which is the max available data on the MCU and includes a nearly 1000 mile round trip road trip where the interstate speed limit is 80 and I was traveling at 83-88 most of that drive.

I am unconcerned with increasing efficiency on long drives since under most scenarios the car charges far faster than I can possibly drive. The only reason I slow down is to reduce charging times on the longest of runs (ie: 150 miles between Superchargers) since charging from or within 5-10% and 95-100% is very slow. If I have reason to be there longer and am not concerned about this charging speed reduction/time increase at the edges of the range, then it is full speed ahead and I will take conference calls, eat or whatever else after arrival when I need to where time is less important.

During my commute daily 11 mile commute I average approximately 303-323 going and 350ish returning. This is with no heat and low to moderate A/C usage 60% highway 40% city.

I would also like to know how driving style correlates to total displayed rated range on the display. I am not entirely sure there is a connection. I am 100% certain consumption as displayed in W/m is definitely impacted. Driving 80+ mph up grades into a 30 mph sustained headwind definitely will result in some crazy consumption numbers.

Mathew98 | 2019年4月26日

Rated range has never considered driving habits into it's calculation, as some of us have suggested in the past.

RR is based on 280 Wh/m or so usage.

ktslab | 2019年4月26日

@ jinglejeff , Model S P85 at 75 ~ 80% for 240 miles is remarkable. Do you mean 90% at 240 miles?

bill | 2019年4月26日

Try this. Charge your car to 100% and make sure it either reaches 100% or the charge rate drops very low. My car rarely reaches done on a 100% charge it puts up a calculating message and just stays like that. The miles stop increasing but the car is still charging at a low rate. When you start driving have the trip screen up and watch the mile s since last charge. In my case I can go over 10 miles before the range decreases a mile.

Try the same thing at less then 100%. In my case I cannot even drive a mile without loosing a mile of range.

It would be nice if Tesla made a techie screen available to the geeks that gave you pack voltages so you could measure battery health.

jordanrichard | 2019年4月27日

Bill, Tesla certainly could give us all sorts of data points about the battery, but that would just make people hyperfocus on variables that really don’t make a difference, but would cause even more unnecessary panic calls to customer support.

In ICE cars, the actual coolant temperatures fluctuate, but all people see if the needle sitting steadily at “normal”. People would think there is something wrong seeing anything variations.

p.c.mcavoy | 2019年4月27日

@Teslatap - I've commented several times about how much a number addict I am and tracking info on my MS90D. Here is plot of my apparent rated range vs my energy usage.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KgMWJGCP70x7vMIzeR9cuKnKDj4wWsPT

You'll see that my average energy usage during different periods has averaged as low as 245 Wh/mi and as high as 330 Wh/mi (those are averages over 1,000-4,000 mile segments, not individual trip stats). I see no apparent influence of energy usage (Wh/mi) on the trend for indicated range.

I do have my lifetime Wh/mi value tracked and am currently running at 282 Wh/mi over 45k miles. Given the way I collect my totals weekly I actually can go back and slice into rough time or mile buckets independent of how I've reset my trip meters. That's actually really easy to do, I just capture photo of the trip meters on a weekly basis, or on longer trip, every time I supercharge, and transcribe them into a spreadsheet. Every now and then I come up with a new way to slice the data, like auto calculating quarterly and yearly totals (interesting to see seasonal variations and changes in driving patterns over time), but on-going maintenance is like 5 minutes a week, or maybe 10 minutes at night when traveling like the 1,500 mile trip last weekend.

Now for those that will question the number of individual points I show, no those are not all 100% charges. They are extrapolated to 100% based upon ratio of RM to % SOC. For those that use the Stats app, I believe this is the exact way, and very similar chart which it provides as if you do some digging you find where I actually shared my method, and some sample plots with the developer of that app.

I know some will argue that nothing other than a true 100% charge gives a realistic estimate, and therefore my graph should be ignored. I counter that by asking you to pick out the 14 points in my chart that are true 100% charges, run to full trickle/shutoff by the car. I do do some things in my data collection, or more accurately charging method, to help minimize numerical noise. This includes always setting to a specified percentage, 70% or above, and letting the car stop charging on it's own and not just interrupting by unplugging. Also whenever possible my data is taken via VisibleTesla logging which gives me the RM number to 1-2 decimal places (depends on which data export option I use). Both of those help minimize some of the rounding errors/numerical noise.

TeslaTap.com | 2019年4月27日

@PC - Thanks putting all this data into the chart and sharing! Nice to getting a confirmation the SOC range does not change with driver habits or usage. Never had a 100% clarity one way or the other, although suspected it didn't change. Might be cool to also the chart by month or quarter to see how much the seasons change the W/miles numbers, but great as-is.

p.c.mcavoy | 2019年4月27日

@TeslaTap - Here's the average energy use when I slice my data in quarterly buckets.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1LEr9RFyDjeWrBLjKaPBSsIIujrh4xPRi

I've not put into a line series to plot directly against my apparent range given the other plot I shared, including a similar version where I do it via date vs. odometer, shows no obvious correlation of indicated range to energy use.

As for how I create my quarterly averages, I can essentially create a virtual trip meter for the quarter by taking the difference in cumulative total energy and miles to get the total miles traveled and total energy consumed and simply divide to get Wh/mi average for the quarter. Now the quarter time slices are not perfect, but within a few days +/- on each end. Given at a minimum I record values every Sunday morning, I'm normally not more than a couple days one way or the other for the precise calendar quarter start/stop.

The Q2'19 numbers are still only partial, but currently 2,000 miles of data, including 1,500 mile round trip last weekend between Indiana and NYC. For reference, that trip was 1502.4 miles at an average of 271.6 Wh/mi. So yes, getting rated range is possible depending upon route, climate, and driving style.

It's pretty clear the impact of cold weather looking at my Q1 numbers which run ~320-330 Wh/mi versus my lifetime average of 282, or some spring/summer quarters of 243-267 Wh/mi.

Q3'17 stands out as especially low versus Q3'16 and Q3'18. Two factors at play. First, Q3'16 still has an influence of break-in period and higher frictional losses as rotating surfaces like bearings and brakes wear-in, combined with me learning how to drive most efficiently in an EV with regen braking (it's not just take you foot all the way off the accelerator!). Also Q3'17 is largely local driving where Q3'18 had more longer range travel involved, so a bit of a duty cycle factor.