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Why anyone would buy a Leaf, info for those who hafta.

Why anyone would buy a Leaf, info for those who hafta.

For me it is about servicing.
Only 3/4 of Nissan dealers n Australia will be getting Leaves, so its a guess if I can get one.
My nearest Tesla store is an overnight ferry trip away (Melbourne AU) so that would be a foolish "business decision".

I like these Nissan features:

1: hatchback. My wife wants a car she can fit any piece of furniture into. Currently have a Citroen C5 hatch, Ford Territory SUV both with racks and towbars.
Have had a few Ford wagons, A Rover SD1 V8 hatch, Datsun 120Y hatch...

2: Vehicle to grid availability. Maybe 2 years , the salesman told me.

3: No other reasons, other than to get into an EV

Longtime forum members will know that I am a TSLA long, and provide a Tesla charger at my Airbnb On The Beach Cottage (com au)

spuzzz123 | 2019年8月10日

1) model y coming soon

2) is this really that important? Freq power disruptions where you live? Don’t you worry about wear and tear on your battery (more frequent charge/discharge cycles?)

3) um this really isn’t a Leaf feature but I love that you bullet pointed it

Anyway your service center being a ferry ride away was all I had to read - that would be enough for me to choose an alternative. Glad you are getting an ev and glad you are long tesla. Consider leasing the leaf maybe things will be different when the lease is up.

M3phan | 2019年8月10日

I’ve never considered several Leaf cars are called Leaves...

SalisburySam | 2019年8月10日

A few other LEAF advantages, based on my ownership of both:

1- MUCH easier ingress/egress, especially after knee surgery
2- Heated steering wheel
3- Ability to turn the annoying head restraint around, and completely remove the back ones when no passengers
4- Things work or don’t; they don’t get better over time but they also don’t get worse. I’m looking at you TACC.
5- Windshield wiper controls on a stalk; easy to use, infinitely adjustable to my desires whatever the rain sitch.
6- Wonderful cloth (recycled plastic bottles) seats in my SL. Comfortable, cooler in the sun, great re-use of plastic.

For me with those items aside, my Model 3 beats the LEAF in all other areas.

casun | 2019年8月10日

SalisburySam, if memory serves you can turn the model 3 headrests around. i remember a thread about it a while back.

Magic 8 Ball | 2019年8月10日

Video on headrests and DIY "fix"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4vIBNx0rBQ

And yes, the video mentions pulling out and reversing them.

SamO | 2019年8月10日

I would pay good money for vehicle to grid. I begged J.B. Straubel to make this a part of the Tesla ecosystem. I asked this question every single time I met a high-level Tesla employer, and would/will ask elin musk the first time I get to meet him.

Huge missed opportunity in the Tesla ecosystem. And now before you start yelling at me, I know the current configuration will not work without and intermediating power wall.

Magic 8 Ball | 2019年8月10日

@SamO How would you suggest VTG be handled warranty wise? I think that is the major roadblock in making it happen. Should they modify the battery warranty to be based on charge cycles?

sunil100 | 2019年8月10日

I switched from Leaf to M3 last year. Things I miss about Leaf

1. Hatch. My dog misses it too. By far the biggest item

2. I was never afraid to take the Leaf anywhere and park it. With M3, I don’t take it to Costco or downtown anymore. Afraid of break-ins and random damage. Happened once at Costco, so I am paranoid now. I was never worried about damage or break-ins in my Leaf.

Tronguy | 2019年8月10日

@Ross1: There's the setup Right This Minute, and there's the future. Let me check the Tesla map for Down Under: So, there's SC's in Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane, and Adelaide, and one coming in Canberra.
So, you're out there: The number of places to fix/get a Tesla is small, given the size of the continent, but I presume that Tesla's still planning on building more facilities?
Three or so years ago there was a lack of Superchargers and stores in the East Coast of the U.S.; there's lots more, now, and Tesla's expanding in Europe.
I presume that the Ranger subsystem is operating in Australia; that may cure some of the issues of repair.
So, right this second there's more Nissan dealers around.. But (a) that may change and (b) the Ranger system may fix it.
Of course, it's your call.

SamO | 2019年8月10日

@8Ball,

In the same way they handle all warranty issues: doing the right thing.

Maybe you trade your degradation warranty for vehicle to grid service.

End result: Tesla makes more $

What about Free for life supercharging?

Maybe you give it up if you use your car for v2g.

End result: Tesla makes more $

And so on.

You’d have to use a power wall between the car and grid, but end result: Tesla makes more money.

What about all those batteries there’s many many gigawatts hours of batteries that are sitting fallow for 22 hours a day?

1agkirk2 | 2019年8月10日

SalisburySam+1
Love my Leaf as the "town car" , great manual seats and nice hatchback. Too short on range in '15.
M3 solved that at 3x the price. Interior is best I have ever owned.

Magic 8 Ball | 2019年8月10日

@SamO I am all for enabling VTG but have noticed even Nissan seems to have enabled it but I really have not heard much banter about people using it. Definitely a good idea to opt in or out and have warranties reflect your use of the product.

I am not sure you would need a powerwall since the car battery is, in essence, a power wall. I think all you would need is the switching electronics. There is plenty of empty space in a HPWC maybe just a module that goes inside.???

gballant4570 | 2019年8月10日

Back to the OP, the currently available form factor might be the biggest differentiator. But the almost here Model Y may well remove that. TOC could be a factor - I've looked a lot at TOC comparing Model 3 or other Teslas to different ICE, but not another EV.....

greg | 2019年8月10日

For sure Tesla are working on V2H (and by extension, V2G).

There are a lot of fishhooks and corner cases in that.
I am sure, that once Tesla has it sorted they will announce the capability.
There will be trade offs to be sure. But I am sure Tesla will think through the problems and come up with a workable solution.

Determining the lifetime battery use from driving versus V2X is easy - the power that is used for driving goes into the motors. The power for V2X goes out the charging socket. Easy for them to track and report on separately if its actually an issue for warranty purposes.

In reality, the strains of the load from driving will be greater than the load from V2X (for an individual house anyway).

So the argument about different cell chemistry between mobile and stationary storage is true, but a red herring of sorts in the end.

However, it may be that to use your car for V2X you need a Powerwall as a "buffer" and grid isolation mechanism.

bj | 2019年8月10日

@greg - “So the argument about different cell chemistry between mobile and stationary storage is true, but a red herring of sorts in the end.”

Is it, though? My Powerwall 2 is fully charged and fully discharged almost *every single day*. And that means from the minimum I have set of 10%, to 100% and back again. It would be rare for an EV driver to do that - I don’t even do that on my LEAF with its modest battery that, in terms of usable capacity, is not much bigger than the PW2. When I get a Model 3 it will be cycled even less due to the much bigger battery.

So the cycling on household storage batteries is definitely more aggressive than it is in a car, which is one of the reasons I understand the battery chemistries are different.

paul | 2019年8月10日

Here's a reason to buy a Leaf. It's 71 inches wide, compared to the M3, which is 73 inches wide. That's a big difference if you have a garage door opening that is 74 inches wide.

greg | 2019年8月10日

@bj,

That notional difference may be true for now. However, do you think that Tesla want to continue to make different cells for different applications in the longer term? Or have a general purposes "do it all" cell design?

I think the current split is a way to solve a manufacturing problem, but it has caused a lot of issues for Tesla. A single cell design/line that can be used for mobile and stationary storage is a better solution.
And I think they are close to having that. And the fact they don't yet is why they don't offer V2X.

I think the distinction between stationary and mobile is simply that the cooling for the Model 3 assumes that when the car is most heavily draining energy/creating waste heat the car/battery pack it is in motion and uses the airflow under the car and through the coils at the front of the car to maintain the cooling required. Whereas the Powerwall2 being wall mounted can't assume that, so its cooling design is a lot different.

greg | 2019年8月10日

[continued]

Secondly, while you can cycle a PowerWall2 battery about 3600 cycles (thats about 10 years of daily charge/discharge cycles when grid connected) before its warranty runs out. No one knows what the actual storage capacity will be after 10 years. [The actual warranty for AUS/NZ of the Powerwall2 is 37 MWh when grid connected, with 70% of the base 13.5 kWh storage capacity left]

If you took a Model 3 LR or Performance and put it on the track you could more or less drain the battery as fast as your Powerwall can - a Powerwall 2 can sustain a short peak of about 7 kW, Longer term sustained load about 5kW - mostly due to inverter design and ability to shed the the heat build up inside the PowerWall 2 at that power level. A Model 3 battery can be drained far far faster than that if you really push it - in under an hour if you drive it on the Autobahn.

So while you could drain the Powerwall2 battery in under 2.5 hours and charge it back up again in about the same time. [normally as you do the refill either overnight or from solar excess it takes a lot longer to refill, but you can do a full cycle in about 5 hours if you wanted/needed to].

Ross1 | 2019年8月10日

Didnt the first Roadsters have V2G?

SamO | 2019年8月10日

JB said in 2013 that it was regulatory, and not technical issues that prevented v2G

bj | 2019年8月12日

@SamO - “JB said in 2013 that it was regulatory, and not technical issues that prevented v2G”

So does that mean Nissan won’t offer V2G in the US next year? Why would that be treated any differently than solar exporting to the grid?

Earl and Nagin ... | 2019年8月12日

@Ross1,
No, No Tesla Roadsters ever had V2G. AC Propulsion, from whom Tesla licensed the Roadster's electric drivetrain Tesla developed a few prototype cars (not Tesla's) with V2G but no Roadster ever had the capability.

Magic 8 Ball | 2019年8月12日

“If we want to actually send energy back from the car to the electricity grid, this gets much more complex, and, you know, that’s something that I don’t see being a very economic or viable solution — perhaps ever, but certainly not in the near term. You know, the additional wear and tear and degradation on your vehicle battery has a fairly high cost, and many of the people and small businesses looking at this today, you know, don’t take into account fully that degradation cost, and also the additional interconnection cost, because if you interconnect your vehicle, you do have regulations that play a part — it has to interconnect in the same way that a solar system would on someone’s home or on a business, which have different standards so that they can protect line operators and people on the grid.”
---JB Straubel

https://cleantechnica.com/2016/08/22/vehicle-to-grid-used-ev-batteries-g...

SamO | 2019年8月12日

M8B,

All of those “issues” are resolved with the placement of a power wall between the car and the house.

Magic 8 Ball | 2019年8月12日

@SamO JB seems to focus more on the higher use of the car battery and accelerated degradation as a result; something we have discussed that may be addressed by modified warranty. Interesting he talks about interconnection cost (inverters have come down in price and are more reliable since 2016). I do believe the regulations are, indeed, a non issue anymore since as you point out a power wall buffer would seem to overcome that issue.

One of my larger issues with CA "laws" concerning solar power is the requirement of net metering. There was no way for me to put off grid solar on my house without going "underground. I don't think this holds true for off grid properties but properties that are on grid do not appear to be allowed to totally disconnect.

Magic 8 Ball | 2019年8月12日

If you are interested to learn more about solar and battery backup systems I listen to Barry Cinnamon sometimes. We bought our system from Barry. He has been very active in legislation on solar in CA and knows his stuff, IMO.

https://cinnamon.energy/the-energy-show-2/

TeslaTap.com | 2019年8月12日

I'd love to have VTH, but only as a backup. Typically we lose power for 2-4 hours a year, and having lots of UPSs arround is less than ideal. If I'm out driving, I don't care if the house doesn't have power. Tesla could offer to degrade the warranty if the combined car/home charging usage is over some threshold. I suspect 99% of customers would never come close.

Still it would require an electronics package similar to the powerwall, just without the batteries. I'd estimate the retail installed cost at $1500 to 3000.

TeslaTap.com | 2019年8月12日

I wonder what Nissan is charging for their VTH electronics package and install? Do they limit the warranty if it is used daily as backup?

bj | 2019年8月12日

V2G is a good idea, but only if the user can configure it for discharge on an exceptional basis, i.e. it is not part of the daily household energy management like PW2 is.

Since getting PW2, my realisation in the value of a car battery has increased greatly. On a sunny day, even though it is mid-winter here, my PW2 is full by around 11am. So if the LEAF is at home, and PW2 is full, it’s great to be able to dump the excess solar power generated into the LEAF. Only when that is also full, and we have run out of ideas about how to use the electricity we are generating (Dishwasher? On. Washing machine? On. Heater? On. Toaster? On.) does grid export happen.

BUT... I would not want to draw on the car battery unless there was a grid outage and only after PW2 was drained. A very specific set of circumstances which would happen very rarely.

SamO | 2019年8月13日

Power outages are frequent in much of the world. Having a powerwall, solar and the ability to V2G with your Tesla would allow you to operate almost indefinitely off the grid.

That should be reason enough to make it happen.

Lack of bi-directional inverter needs to be a part of the vehicle.

DanFoster1 | 2019年8月13日

Model S has a hatchback large enough to swallow my harpsichord and two cellos just sayin’…

vmulla | 2019年8月13日

@DanFoster1,
Yes. S is a very roomy hatchback.
S and Leaf aren't competing for the same kind of customer.

SamO | 2019年8月13日

@vmulla,

Of course, they are. Anyone buying a Leaf should/would/could also cross-shop a used Model S. Might even cost less, have access to charging and carry 7 people.

vmulla | 2019年8月13日

Oh, used S vs new Leaf? Ok that makes sense.

bjrosen | 2019年8月13日

I think that vehicle to grid is a silly idea, the car won't be able to provide enough current to run your whole house and certainly not for very long. Also you need the charge in your car's battery so that you can drive your car. If you need backup then install a solution that's fit for the purpose. I put in a propane generator, Kohler 20KW, because I get outages in the winter that can last several days, a couple of years ago I had one that lasted for five days. You don't have winter in AU so you could look at solar plus powerwall as a solution, but a generator will be cheaper.