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## my long range did not come with as many miles as advertised?

## my long range did not come with as many miles as advertised?

Submitted by sethdbaah on Sat, 2020-03-07 20:24

Looking at the tesla website a LR M3 has 322 miles of range.

I've had my M3 for about a week now. At 30% it shows 92 miles. Doing the math this shows that at 100% I will be at 306 miles.

Does anyone else have this issue or is it just me? Should I charge it to 100% to see what it really is?

wiscy67| 2020年3月7日You won't know what it really is even if you charge to 100%. The miles shown by the battery icon is just an estimate. Make sure you are driving efficiently by checking your wh/mi.

High speed, climate control (either heat or AC), cold ambient temperature, hills, low tire pressure all can impact range while driving. And the car can also use battery while parked (also called phantom drain). You can minimize this by letting the car sleep and not waking up by checking on it with Tesla or 3rd party apps, turn fan off, don't use Sentry mode, turn off Smart Summon standby, set Cabin Overheat protection to use fan only, etc, etc.

RayNLA| 2020年3月7日@sethdbaah

“Looking at the Tesla website”

Interesting...

sidetracked1| 2020年3月7日This is one of the things that most confuses and worries new owners (myself included when I first got my Tesla not long ago).

But really, it's just like a gasoline car. The in either case EPA milage rating is based on the car being driven in pretty optimal conditions. In any car, gar or electric, many things effect milage - speed, driving style, other energy drains (climate control, stereo, etc), type of tires, wind. It does seem like my Tesla is more sensitive to some of these things than all my old ICE cars, but I also don't think I ever obsessed about it in those cars either.

One of the things that was suggested here and helped me, was to change my readout from miles remaining to battery remaining - which is really what most of us were used to on ICE cars.

I never used to think 'hey, my Toyota says it only has 150 miles left!' - I'd just go 'huh, got half a tank left.'. Not having the numbers staring me in the face kept me from watching it like a hawk.

stingray.don| 2020年3月8日sethdbaah,

Charge to 100% and see what you get. Or at least charge to 90% and reduce any extrapolation errors. Unless something has changed, I believe even the new cars are still showing 310 miles rather than the 322. The difference is just a more conservative wh/mi constant, and updating the constant has no affect on actual range. When the EPA tested the 2020 model, they got 322 miles of range even though that wasn’t what the battery meter estimate said.

Regardless, the battery meter range is just an estimate that is influenced by external factors including temperature. It is not a measure of battery health.

https://www.tesla.com/support/range

stingray.don| 2020年3月8日sethdbaah,

Rest assured, if you have a 2020 LR then your car has a rated range of 322. You can look it up at the link below.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/

WW_spb| 2020年3月8日sidetracked1, voice of reason. Thank you.

@Seabass, No one asked you for your opinion. Go away.

@OP, I have 2020 LR and as far as I know Tesla hasn't yet updated cars to correctly calculate new range. Chill. Set it to % and don't stress yourself.

stingray.don| 2020年3月8日It the sticker shows 322 and then the car has to show 322.

__________

Not if it is just using a more conservative wh/mi constant as you yourself pointed out. The car was independently tested by the EPA and found to have a range of 322 miles under their testing methodology. The car’s rated range is 322 miles, period.

M-A-B-MCMLXXX| 2020年3月8日“ It the sticker shows 322 and then the car has to show 322. As we know, that is not always the case.”

And by the second sentence, the first is demonstrated false. Good job.

stingray.don| 2020年3月8日sethdbaah,

There is nothing wrong with your car. It is an amazing vehicle and you should drive and enjoy it. If a certain poster has been successful in convincing you that something is wrong, then contact Tesla via the app and they can run a remote diagnostic, and I am sure they will tell you that everything is fine. There are a couple of miscreants on this bored with agendas that include actively promoting other brands and disparaging Tesla at every turn. Unfortunately, the board is not moderated so you are left to figure out for yourself who the trolls are.

lbowroom| 2020年3月8日So your last car, what was the range on that one? I know, trick question. Ok, it had a mpg rating, city and highway. Did it meet it? Under what conditions? What if drove 110? What if was freezing out? Did the mileage change? Did you ever check?

spuzzz123| 2020年3月9日So fish implying that 2020 cars have longer range than earlier models? Is that just him trying to stir up shit as usual or does anyone else corroborate that?

jallred| 2020年3月9日Rated range is a constant. Never changes.

The words “rated range” can not be found on the display or in the manual.

You can find rated range for your car on the sticker or on the epa website.

The “fuel gauge” number is either in miles or percentage. When in miles it is an estimate of the current range with the current usable battery capacity. Resolution is in 1 mile increments.

When it is in percentage it is the percentage of current charge in battery to maximum charge the battery can hold currently. Resolution is in 1% increments. Note that this is not usable battery capacity.

Looking at resolution and range you see that percentage can be 0 to 100% in 1%increments. That’s approximately 100 different values. For range we have about 0 to 320 miles with 1 mile increments. That’s over 300 values. Point is that for every percent value there is at least 3 range values.

The OP used these values to calculate what his range would be at 100%. This calculation has the following errors:

1. Both the percent battery and range numbers are ESTIMATES.

2. The estimated range is based on the estimated usable battery capacity, a number the user can’t see and can’t use in the calculation.

3. The estimated range can take on 3 different values or more for every displayed percentage. This creates significant error in the calculation. Especially when the percentage is low.

Tesla doesn’t show you rated range, they show you estimated range. Good luck getting Tesla to do anything based on a number they give you that isn’t advertised as the number you claim it is.

Also, the third party apps use the same numbers and the same calculations with the same errors.

That being said, the calculation you are doing can be a gross estimate for the 100% range, but with a large potential error.

FISHEV| 2020年3月9日"You can find rated range for your car on the sticker or on the epa website."

And in the car on the Energy/Consumption graph with the baseline noted at "Rated" which gives range in terms of Wh/mile. Easy to look at what the Rated Wh/mile to see what the car is set at.

Also Rated Range shows when you charge to 100% and set the battery icon to Miles vs. PerCent.

If these numbers show the 310 miles vs. the 322 miles then Tesla did not up the range. Be interesting to see a screen shot of the Battery/Consumption graphic for those who purchased cars that have 322 Miles Rated Range on the sticker.

M-A-B-MCMLXXX| 2020年3月9日JFC

jallred| 2020年3月9日Rated range comes from an epa test. The car never shows rated range. Never. And even if it did, it is just a number on a display. There is no obligation that a number on a display should match the results of the epa test. No obligation that the efficiency line should match any calculated rated efficiency.

The car simply doesn’t tell you what it thinks it’s 100% range is. Every person that tries to compare it against rated range is doing calculations with low resolution estimates made by the car itself. And then even worse, they use the results to calculate battery degradation. Some go so far as to graph degradation using miles as the y-axis, when battery degradation isn’t measured in miles.

M-A-B-MCMLXXX| 2020年3月9日Note to unsuspecting readers, the above user can not differentiate between several distinct dimensions, including power, energy, range, and efficiency. Take caution reading his posts.

jallred| 2020年3月9日Projected range can be useful.

The line in question is not rated range. Evidence is that the values don’t match, the units don’t match and the name doesn’t match. The efficiency is related to rated range, but it isn’t rated range. Saying it over and over doesn’t make it rated range.

If Tesla changes the efficiency number on the screen it doesn’t change the rated range of the car. No matter what number they put there, the rated range remains what the rated range is. You can’t correctly claim that they sold you the wrong car because of a number on the display. If the number is incorrect then the number is incorrect. It doesn’t mean the range is wrong.

jallred| 2020年3月9日Let's say that you charge your car to 100% and the range displayed is 10000 miles. Or say 2 miles. A reasonable person would believe that the range estimates are not very accurate. And that reasonable person could prove that the estimate is not accurate by driving the car until the battery was exhausted or nearly exhausted. At which point the actual measured range would be no where near either 2 miles or 10000 miles.

At this point, a reasonable person would doubt the validity of the estimate.

At what point does someone decide that the estimate is valid enough that they are willing to use it as a measure of whether the car is broken or not?

We shouldn't accept an unvalidated estimate of range as the basis for a validated (in our minds) measure of degradation.

sidetracked1| 2020年3月9日1st, if you're really feeling nervous, you can ask Tesla to do a remote battery diagnostic. I did back when I first got the car and had the same panic a ton of us are prone to. It was fine.

And once you get over the worry, it can actually be fun and interesting to see what effects your milage and how much. For example, drive up a mountain, and look at your energy use and predicted range using the last few miles as a base in the 'energy' section of your readout. You'll see you have used a big chunk of your energy, and have shockingly little left. Then drive down the same mountain, and check the same readout. The last time I did that it predicted my range as something like 600 miles.

It's all just the laws of physics and once you know there's nothing wrong with your car, you can learn a ton about what affects energy use.

But its just the same with gasoline cars. I drive from Los Angeles to the mountains of Utah every year to teach. And then back. Same roads both ways, same basic driving style. But the 8,000 feet difference in elevation (gaining one direction, losing the other) makes a modest but real and measurable difference in MPG between the two directions of the 600 mile trip. Again, nothing wrong the car, just physics.

jlaurie| 2020年3月9日hmm, So if charge to 296mi (my current 100%). How many miles at worst might I use driving 30mi to get up an 8000 mountain road with the heater on at 72 and its 35 outside? 2:1? 3:1 (miles registered, vs miles driven) ball park...?

WW_spb| 2020年3月9日Would want to lower you heater to 67-68 will help with efficiency a lot.

philip| 2020年3月9日@MAB

FISH wrote:

“The fixed Rated Wh/mi is the Rated Range. They put this baseline in the Energy/Consumption graph so you can watch your energy consumption in real time and over a 30 mile range to see if your usage will yield above or below Rated range miles. It even provides a Projected Range alongside it so you don't have to do the math as you drive.

When driving in less than ideal conditions this can be very useful in knowing what your actual range is vs. the Rated range showing next to the battery icon if you have it set to Miles vs. Per Cent.”

Can you explain where he got this wrong? I think I agree with him, but you advise caution about believing him.

@WW Agreed - having the heater and heated seats on does take power. But my wife does like a warm car!

stingray.don| 2020年3月9日Can you explain where he got this wrong?

___________

He says “the fixed rated wh/mi is the rated range”. Wh/mi is efficiency not range. It’s like saying a gas car has a rated range of 30 mpg. Saying it once might be a mistake, but he has stated this over and over again and defends every time. His statement speaks volumes.

M-A-B-MCMLXXX| 2020年3月9日philip | March 9, 2020

@MAB Can you explain where he got this wrong? I think I agree with him, but you advise caution about believing him.

I’ll try.

“The fixed Rated Wh/mi is the Rated Range.”

That’s rated efficiency.

“They put this baseline in the Energy/Consumption graph so you can watch your energy consumption in real time and over a 30 mile range to see if your usage will yield above or below Rated range miles.”

The screen isn’t showing you energy consumption in real time. It’s showing you efficiency in real time. I don’t know what the intent of the screen was, however I kind of doubt it was to facilitate seeing whether you’re capable of going farther than or not as far as rated range. Also it can be used with 4 settings other than 30 miles.

“It even provides a Projected Range alongside it so you don't have to do the math as you drive.

When driving in less than ideal conditions this can be very useful in knowing what your actual range is vs. the Rated range showing next to the battery icon if you have it set to Miles vs. Per Cent.”

There is nothing in the car which gives “actual range.” There is nothing in the car which gives “rated range” (a term which is no longer a part of the lexicon). The Trip planning mode forecasts energy usage over an actual route rather than merely assuming that whichever of the 6 options you select in the other screen describes the road ahead. It’s significantly valuable. Whether you’re doing better or worse than rated efficiency may be interesting, but of much less value to anyone who isn’t sure what the road ahead is like.

Hope that helps.

DiminishedSeventh| 2020年3月9日TL;DR -

Power: kilowatts (kW)

Energy production, storage, or consumption: kilowatt hours (kWh)

Distance: kilometers (km) or miles (mi)

Efficiency: watt hours per kilometer (Wh/km) or watt hours per mile (Wh/mi)

Power is instantaneous. Energy is power over a period of time. Efficiency is energy over a distance. Distance is... well... distance.

WW_spb| 2020年3月9日By Philip The Protector of Seabass

"Can you explain where he got this wrong? I think I agree with him, but you advise caution about believing him."

Do you see now where he is wrong? And He has been at it for very long time.

M-A-B-MCMLXXX| 2020年3月9日Correct. He is impervious to information. He makes a ton of inadvertent mistakes due to a lack of technical acumen, but I am convinced he intentionally makes some mistakes time and again with the intent of spreading confusion.

WW_spb| 2020年3月9日M-A-B-MCMLXXX there is no doubt in my mind that he does it on purpose. He is evil troll that get kicks out from it. No wonder he is present in many forums. Crazy.

WW_spb| 2020年3月9日Get kicks from it*

jallred| 2020年3月9日Only use of energy graph is to show first time passengers that the car uses more energy per mile when we go fast. Useless for commuting or road tripping. Trip graph is like magic it is so good.

FISHEV| 2020年3月9日"He says “the fixed rated wh/mi is the rated range”. Wh/mi is efficiency not range."

Which means it measures range, see the "miles" in the equation.

Since it includes miles it is same as MPG, how many miles you should go on a set amount of energy. Tesla and EPA call it Wh/mi for EV's. EPA also posts the EV range, range on every car actuall. If a Tesla cannot deliver its rated range (Wh/mi) when new then an owner has an issue. Tesla sells cars by Range.

Key is the car's sticker to make sure they did not sell you a 310 rated car. If the sticker shows 322 miles then the fixed Rated Wh/mi on Energy/Consumption should show 233 Wh/mi.

WW_spb| 2020年3月9日Ignore Seabass. He is always wrong.

lbowroom| 2020年3月9日They don’t sell you range. They sell you a car with a battery of fixed capacity, fixed coefficient of drag, fixed coefficient of friction, fixed motor configurations. combine that with your driving habits and environment and you get an efficiency. No number on a sticker or screen will change that.

M-A-B-MCMLXXX| 2020年3月9日""He says “the fixed rated wh/mi is the rated range”. Wh/mi is efficiency not range."

Which means it measures range, see the "miles" in the equation."

@philip

See what I mean? Having displacement somewhere in a unit of measure means that unit of measure is range, per el Fishbo.

miles/kWh? Range.

miles/hour? Range.

feet/second/second? Range.

newton-meters? Range.

In the real world, Wh/mi is exactly what is says, and it isn't distance.

stingray.don| 2020年3月9日My wife’s car gets an EPA 30 mpg. What is her rated range?

Anyone who claims wh/mi or mpg is rated range has no credibility.

WW_spb| 2020年3月9日Any one who pretends Fish is right has no credibility either.

That is why I call Phillip the 3rd Protector of Fishbones.

DiminishedSeventh| 2020年3月9日I’m literally laughing so hard right now!! I mean, you’ve GOT to be joking, right??

@FISHEV you are so wrong, I don’t even know where to start.

I guess you think speed limit signs measure range too, right? After all, the “m” stands for miles! And according to your statement, “Since it includes miles it is same as MPG” so MPH=MPG in Fishworld. Ridiculous.

@FISHEV: “If a Tesla cannot deliver its rated range (Wh/mi)”

IT IS LITERALLY THE FIRST THING ON THE MODEL 3 PAGE ON TESLA’S WEBSITE: 322mi Range (AWD Dual Motor)

Source: https://www.tesla.com/model3

It doesn’t say “290Wh/mi Range” now does it?!

Or maybe Merriam-Webster can explain it to you; it seems to work well for grade school kids:

Range - noun, ˈrānj - 5b : the maximum distance a vehicle or craft can travel without refueling

What’s the keyword there? I’ll give you a clue... it starts with a “d” and ends with an “istance”. That’s right, DISTANCE. How do we measure distance? Inches, feet, meters, yards, miles, etc. Find me a ruler with units in Wh/mi and I’ll buy you your Mach-E.

stingray.don| 2020年3月10日DiminishedSeventh,

He does it on purpose to evoke a reaction. He doesn’t care about being right or wrong. He doesn’t care about changing your mind or educating anyone. It has been explained to him countless times in terms a 6 year old could understand. He continues to make the same claims because he knows the reaction he will get.

WW_spb| 2020年3月10日And that is why he is labeled Troll and being cursed by me. The End.

FISHEV| 2020年3月10日"IT IS LITERALLY THE FIRST THING ON THE MODEL 3 PAGE ON TESLA’S WEBSITE: 322mi Range (AWD Dual Motor)"

Correct. Tesla sells cars by Range not battery size. The question is why so many people who thought they purchased 322 Range cars don't see it anywhere in practice or on the car.

The Rated Range is shown two places in the Model 3.

1. On the green battery icon when set to Miles vs. Per Cent. At 100% charge on a new car at 70F it should show the EPA Rated Range on the car's stick.

2. On the Energy/Consumption graph there is a baseline Rated Range in Wh/mi. This baseline should be 242 Wh/mile for 310 LR AWD and 234 Wh/mile for 322 LR AWD. Since Tesla doesn't provide a good Wh/mile scale it would be hard to see this difference on the graph. It can be done though by driving the car and watching the numbers as it car's actual Wh/mi intersects the Rated Wh/mi.

This is based on 75,000 Wh battery, you can use whatever battery size you want but the differential should remain the same between the 310 rated car and a 322 rated car.

Joshan| 2020年3月10日"IT IS LITERALLY THE FIRST THING ON THE FORD MUSTANG PAGE PAGE ON FORD’S WEBSITE: 300mi Range

"IT IS LITERALLY THE FIRST THING ON THE HYUNDAI KONA PAGE PAGE ON HYUNDAIS’S WEBSITE: 250mi Range

Should I keep going?

M-A-B-MCMLXXX| 2020年3月10日“ On the Energy/Consumption graph there is a baseline Rated Range in Wh/mi”

@ philip

This is typical. Fish states something wrong. People helpfully point out the error. He incorrectly explains why it isn’t erroneous, and then continues stating it.

Range is not expressed in Wh/mi. It’s impossible. The fact that miles resides in the denominator doesn’t make it range any more than your home size in ft^2 is its range.

Elsewhere fish states that range is energy.

Range is correctly expressed in units of distance. As said before, take caution.

DiminishedSeventh| 2020年3月10日@FISHEV you conveniently skipped over the fact that all of your metrics were wrong. The question is why you continue to post lies and misinformation when you’ve been proven over and over again to be patently wrong.

Guess it’s true what they say - you can’t fix stupid.

Still waiting for you to find a ruler or tape measure that expresses distance units in Wh/mi. I’ll wait.

philip| 2020年3月10日I think what he is trying to say is that Range is a function of Wh/mi, but not expressing himself very clearly.

I don't want to get into another barney with certain people who seem to think what posters here say can cause the Tesla share price to crash, so I shall retire and watch from the sidelines on this one!

jallred| 2020年3月10日@philip,

1. He doesn't know what "is a function of" means.

2. You are right, but the function requires another independent variable, usable capacity. The efficiency is a constant in the function. None of us ever know the independent variable's value, because it isn't displayed anywhere.

If I tell you my efficiency is 250 Wh/mi you can't tell me range unless I tell you how many Wh I have. And how many Wh I have is actually the thing we are looking for.

To determine degradation you need to know how many Wh less your battery holds then when new.

People are trying to calculate this by taking the percentage the battery is charged to its fullest possible current charge, multiplying that by the assumed initial battery capacity, dividing this by the constant efficiency number shown on the energy graph, subtracting this number (miles) from the sticker rated range, dividing the result by the sticker rated range, and subtracting from 100 to get degradation.

And only a few of us see a problem with this.....

M-A-B-MCMLXXX| 2020年3月10日philip | March 10, 2020

I think what he is trying to say is that Range is a function of Wh/mi, but not expressing himself very clearly.

No. I like that you offer a stranger the benefit of the doubt, but he’s very specific about it.

https://imgur.com/nSJcCbq

https://imgur.com/aYXui2k

https://imgur.com/PBrz5Co

jallred| 2020年3月10日it's like a museum collection of oddities.