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15" screen and or Hud system

15" screen and or Hud system

I read a article from digital times saying Tesla was going to replace the 15" screen with an advanced Hud system.
I would think the screen and HUD would be installed together I'm not sure I want just a HUD system for all controls?
Does anyone know if this is Valid article or more man made rumors from the unreliable press?

Drdpharris | 2016年6月4日

It is possible that a HUD wpuld include a transluscent screen (equiv to the 15" display) that is projected onto by a second HUD projector, giving display and touch. It all soecukation at this point, and may depend on cost. Its possible that the HUD will be drlayed to a future update of the 3.

Drdpharris | 2016年6月4日

It is possible that a HUD wpuld include a transluscent screen (equiv to the 15" display) that is projected onto by a second HUD projector, giving display and touch. It all soecukation at this point, and may depend on cost. Its possible that the HUD will be drlayed to a future update of the 3.

jamilworm | 2016年6月4日

I think there is a very real chance there will be no HUD and just the same type of LCD display as at the reveal. A big reason the whole HUD discussion started is that people were concerned about the safety/convenience of looking at a center screen for vital info (speed, range etc). But upon the advice of someone's post, while driving I kept glancing in that area as if I was checking my speed, and really it's not inconvenient at all. I think people are overdramatizing the impact of glancing down and to the right vs down. It's really not any more difficult or distracting than looking at a traditional instrument cluster. In fact sometime the steering wheel can get in the way of a traditional cluster so in that way at least the center screen would be better.

Other evidence people reference is that Elon mentioned that it would feel like a spaceship. But he was responding to a question about the steering wheel, no the lack of instrument cluster.

Lastly, people made a big deal about Tesla recently hiring a guy who worked on a motorcycle helmet HUD. I know it is tempting to believe that means the model 3 will have a HUD, but look at it realistically. The car has been in development for years, and you think they are only starting to design such a critical component of the system so they just hired the guy now? Personally I think it's way too late in the game to not have such a complicated thing figured out already. Of course it is possible they have a HUD designed and integrated already and they hired that guy to help solve problems they ran into. But I think it is more likely that they hired him to work on future projects. Remember, the model 3 isn't the only car Tesla will make.

Of course this is all just my opinion. I am just afraid that since Tesla was so ambiguous about the design at the first reveal then people get carried away with speculation. And it seems to have gotten to a point where everyone pretty much assumes there will be a HUD, and it will be a disappointment to many if there is not.

mos6507 | 2016年6月4日

There is something going on because Tesla hired the guy who worked on the dash of the Porsche Mission E. It might not be a HUD but they didn't hire that guy just to leave the dash as-is.

TeslaTap.com | 2016年6月4日

With the 3 to be design complete and 'pencils down' in 5 weeks, they are not considering adding HUD at this stage. Options include:

1) They have been designing the HUD for the last year and are hiding it for a cool reveal at the end of the year.
2) There is no HUD now or in the plans.
3) There is a HUD (or HUD option) that will appear in M3 v2.0 in 1-2 years after production starts.

To avoid similar problems with early production on the X (too many new cool features), my guess is a HUD will not be on the first release. Then again, Tesla has pleasantly surprised us quite a few times.

Sin_Gas | 2016年6月4日

No HUD puts M3 way behind BMW as far as driver ergonomics. Have it now, would not buy without it. Not going to wait another 5 years for a M3 2.0!

SinGas

Orland | 2016年6月4日

If we take Elon's lead - they would introduce the HUD as an option on Model S/X prior to or including it on the Model 3.

Or Tesla may opt to introduce it on all 3 models at the same time...... It isn't so much "new" as just not included in the cars prior. I suppose we'll know by end of year at the earliest.

I would love to have a HUD in the M3 in version 1 of the car. :)

cephellow | 2016年6月4日

If Tesla is going to use a HUD, ( probably TI's DLP technology) then they may as well go all out. To reiterate what I've posted previously, and what Drdpharris posted in this thread, the HUD may include a secondary DLP rear projecting onto a clear panel replacing the 15" LCD screen shown in the reveal. The HUD could also easily replace the side and rear mirror functions.
Many potential advantages of such a system such as substantially lower cost, higher reliability and huge design flexibility. due to the fact that it can be packaged into a single central optical and processor unit embedded in the top of the dash. The DLPs are very reliable, relatively low cost, and can leverage the engineering resources of TI for the design integration, which would put such a system in-line with the design philosophy and cost objectives of Tesla.
Of course Tesla can do none of the above, since I'm just some engineer SWAG speculating on a forum just like everyone else.....

TeslaTap.com | 2016年6月4日

Sin_Gas - "No HUD puts M3 way behind BMW as far as driver ergonomics"

I'd disagree - Few BMW models offer standard HUD, most don't have a touch display and use the awful iDrive (hated in the USA, but seemed to be loved in Germany), displays are often 1/2 the size or smaller than the 15" screen Tesla is using, and all BMWs have tons of tiny buttons scattered all around with cryptic icons and labels. BMW could learn quite a bit from Tesla on drive ergonomics.

Semi-competitive BMWs like the 320 and i3 don't even offer HUD. You have to go to a 328 with nav option to get it ($45K or so for an anemic 328 4/cylinder version).

I do think a HUD would be cool, but it's not the end of the world if the 3 doesn't have this.

Remnant | 2016年6月4日

Since rearview cameras are now required, Tesla will have to include displays of the rearview cameras in its dash designs, whether as instrumentation panel areas or as HUD components.

jamilworm | 2016年6月4日

@cephellow, I am not sold on your cost savings argument. You seem to be suggesting they should use a windshield HUD and a projector system instead of LCD for the central screen. My suggestion in the previous post was that there would just be no windshield/dash display at all. So certainly a windshield HUD wouldn't be cheaper than $0.

And as for the central screen, how cheap do you think projectors are? LCD touch screens are super cheap and reliable, because there is already an enormous market for them (tablets and PCs). Do you really think a projector and screen are going to be cheaper?

cephellow | 2016年6月4日

jamilworm
I don't disagree that no central screen is cheaper than having a center screen-NSS. However, a user input device is needed, so the center screen is there for now, using capacitive touch sensing.
Yes, I am asserting a projected screen is cheaper, because the integration expense of a HUD is already there if they are using a HUD (which is the premise of my post).
So the projected screen is pretty much the cost of a secondary DLP and capacitive screen. Part of the cost savings is that it is pretty hard to screw up, vandalize or steal a center mounted piece of plastic and laminated glass compared to a pedestal mounted LCD screen, in the context of a car.
Also, I would expect Tesla to use an OLED rather than an LED screen if they do go the route of what they showed at the reveal.

jamilworm | 2016年6月4日

I see what you are saying, IF they use a windshield HUD then it makes financial sense for the center screen to be a projection screen as well. But I think there may not be a windshield HUD at all, in which case for the center screen only an LCD or OLED even may be cheaper than a DLP screen.

Drdpharris | 2016年6月4日

I am convinced HUD is coming*, so at the very least I hope that HUD is planned for and can be retrofitted, if not included at launch.

* HUD will make AP and autonomous modes much more understandable, since the recognition and actions can be displayed directly over the actual objects in the drivers line of sight.

topher | 2016年6月5日

"people were concerned about the safety/convenience of looking at a center screen for vital info (speed, range etc)."

Forget speed and range. Think about displaying lane keeping, other vehicle locations, and all the other auto-pilot information on that screen. That is what convinced me there will be some sort of HUD.

Thank you kindly.

TeslaTap.com | 2016年6月5日

Everyone is talking about HUD, but I suspect everyone view of what it is may be wildly different (and could dramatically affect the cost).

Here's a a basic HUD (Corrvette):

Here is a BMW 7 series HUD:

Here is a wild conceptual DLP display from TI. It would require eye tracking to line up the HUD view with the real view. No car has anything like this yet, and may never be. Eye tracking may not work with glasses, and could be jumpy as you move your head or eyes around.

So while some may imagine something like the TI display, it is more likely (if made available) to be closer to the BMW display (small, very limited content).

jsl6v8 | 2016年6月5日

Why would it require eye tracking, could be a set and forget, a way to move it up and down like you would your mirrors or the display on your monitor screen.

Drdpharris | 2016年6月5日

Yes, it would be an adjust to your position. You would quickly adapt to it. Another per driver profile.

TeslaTap.com | 2016年6月5日

In the third image, your head and eye position will need to align very closely with the HUD display graphics IF the graphics are trying to align with the road. It will likely make you sick to see the image jumping relative to the outside image as you move, the car goes over bumps and looking at a passenger or mirrors. A very cool HUD that might not be all that practical.

All existing car HUDs do not rely on the image aligning with the road, and does not suffer the eye/road alignment issues. If you were to wear HUD eyewear (Google glass) or a HUD helmet, the eye/display alignment issues are greatly reduced.

It may also take a fair amount of computer power to adjust what the camera sees, at a different location than your eyes and remap it to graphics based on your sightlines. I think it would need stereo cameras to make a 3D mapping of the road and objects ahead. It might need another set of stereo cameras to track your eye and head movements. So it has to process and analyze 4 video streams in real-time. Clearly doable today, but only with some major processing power that adds significant cost and complexity. I'd guess sunglasses and perhaps even normal glasses would break such a system. Love to be wrong on this, but my engineering side thinks commercialization of eye tracking HUD is at least 5+ years out.

jsl6v8 | 2016年6月5日

I'm really confused on why you'd need it to track your eyes, it could be stationary, you'd just have to set it for your seating position and height. I don't understand how the change would make you sick.

yongliangzhu68 | 2016年6月5日

jsl6v8: Because the image would be on a fixed point on the windshield. It would be relative to the eye position. For instance if a circle was drawn around the car infant of you the passing would see the circle in a different place than around the car. The same would happen as you moved your head.

Take a marker and go out to your car and sit in it. Then draw a circle around an object out the windshield. Now move around and you will see the circle is no longer in the right place.

topher | 2016年6月5日

TeslaTap
So you're saying that we will have full autonomy before we have a full up HUD? Surely tracking cars on the road is harder than tracking driver's eyes, yes?

Thank you kindly.

yongliangzhu68 | 2016年6月5日

infant = in front and passing = passenger

jsl6v8 | 2016年6月5日

wj: I understand that perfectly, I just don't view it as a problem. 90% of the time you aren't moving your head around, really even when checking my mirrors my head doesn't really move just my eyes. Also, it doesn't matter what the passenger sees, they aren't driving.

yongliangzhu68 | 2016年6月5日

jsl6v8: You may not realize it but even holding your head as still as you can it will move several mm in all axes directions because the car is dynamically moving. Now if the car is sitting still this may not be a problem, but even driving on the smoothest road surface head moment is inevitable.

Not only would objects be constantly be misaligned with the display it would contribute to motion sickness having them 'bounce around' while your brain tried to align them with the background.

TeslaTap.com | 2016年6月5日

@jsl6v8 - Even if you lock your head in a neck brace, you'll be moving quite a bit. Car bumps are just one example, where your seat cushion compresses and you physically move down and then back up relative to the display. Even small movements 1/2" will cause big misalignment issues between a HUD and a car 50 feet away.

As for the passenger, I might not have been clear. I was thinking of the case where the driver turns to the passenger for a few seconds while talking (a rather common event). Now eye tracking will be totally thrown off. As you turn back, eye tracking will likely be impossible to realign until you are facing close to forward. Hard to figure out what to do that won't look strange during this event.

I hadn't thought of what the passenger sees. My guess is the system would be designed to have a very narrow field of view so the passenger wouldn't see anything.

@topher - "full autonomy before we have a full up HUD?" Hard to say, both are really complex. If you have limited development resources and you had to choose what owners will buy, I'd guess autonomous driving would always win out over a eye-tracking HUD. Actually the need for HUD goes away with autonomous driving!

yongliangzhu68 | 2016年6月5日

gopher: Eye-tracking and sunglass don't 'mix' very well. :)

yongliangzhu68 | 2016年6月5日

gopher = topher

jamilworm | 2016年6月5日

Thank you wj and TeslaTap for explaining the problem with augmented reality well. Unfortunately I think a lot of people are picturing this sort of thing when reading about the possibility of a HUD.

For hose who still think you might be able to keep your head perfectly in the same position all the time, one thing that wasn't mentioned is that your height changes slightly from morning to night. You are taller in the morning and shorter at night. So even if you had statue-like stillness and no road bumps there would still be variation in your head position from trip to trip.

jamilworm | 2016年6月5日

Actually, I have a question for anyone who has ever used an automotive HUD or just knows a lot about them. Do they even work with polarized sunglasses? Theoretically light reflecting off the windshield in that orientation would be horizontally polarized, which is what sunglasses block because light reflecting off the road is horizontally polarized. Is there some way that auto HUDs avoid this problem?

Red Sage ca us | 2016年6月5日

TeslaTap: +21! Very good examples and descriptions.

cereichelt | 2016年6月6日

Actually, I don't believe in the HUD rumors. No known technology complies to Tesla's requirements in lightweight construction, robustness and flexibility.
I think what we will see is a steering wheel with small touch screens integrated near the thumbs of the driver (as shown on the Model X concept car). To me this seems enough of a "space ship".

Cowbell | 2016年6月6日

I think you'll be able to snap your iPhone into the steering wheel, run the Tesla app, and have a rotation-corrected speedometer displayed. There will also be buttons for horn and lasers.

topher | 2016年6月6日

"I think what we will see is a steering wheel with small touch screens integrated near the thumbs of the driver (as shown on the Model X concept car). To me this seems enough of a "space ship"."

Much worse, for me, than just a normal binnacle. Information needed while keeping one's eyes on the road, need to be at a focal distance as close to that of the road as possible. Moving that information even closer to the driver, and lower takes it even further from the ideal location. Prius have their display as if it was underneath the windshield wipers. This puts it as close the proper location as possible without an actual HUD. That would be a far better solution than a steering wheel display.

Thank you kindly.

draselder | 2016年6月6日

Topher nailed it.

yongliangzhu68 | 2016年6月6日

cereichelt : Also as said before, steering wheels have airbags and airbags are explosive devices. Having a glass display explode into your face would probably not be the best idea.

sporchiamarco | 2016年6月6日

While you may be right, it seems is not needed the precise eye if you don't need a perfect alignment

http://continental-head-up-display.com/

i miss something or they have already developed it?

Octagondd | 2016年6月6日

I believe Panasonic has some HUD stuff in development.....hmmmmm.

yongliangzhu68 | 2016年6月6日

I originally posted a full windshield HUD thread right after the reveal. However I no longer believe that is the case. At this time I believe like TeslaTap.com that the HUD will be an improved/enhanced/full featured BUT conventional HUD. Not some radical high tech, eye trading, full windshield system that is on the far cutting edge of technology. Tesla/Musk has learned from the Falcon's that 'cutting edge' can also cause bleeding. By far the most important thing Tesla can do is deliver the M3 in a reasonable time frame. After all Tesla does have a history to overcome and too many people waiting and too much on the line. If the M3 is only delayed until mid or late 18 it will be seen as much larger failure than the Roadster, MS or MX delays were.

No hubris, untested and far out sic-fi tech should find its way into the M3. That should be reserved for the next Roadster/Sports car or in the next MS/MX. Remember the M3 NEEDS to be Tesla's bread & butter. You shouldn't take a chance putting lizard eggs on your bread & butter because it LOOKS promising but cost a small fortune. You may have to start over if it doesn't work out and with a $1,000 invested the people are 'hungry'.

mos6507 | 2016年6月6日

Some of what Musk is doing with the M3 belies the goal of cutting the cost of the vehicle down to the minimum. I think he's picking his battles when it comes to the gee-whiz-factor. I do think that whatever changes to the dash, if they are seen as an improvement, will need to happen simultaneously with the S and X. I don't think you'll see a HUD in the 3 and not the S and X. So one way for him to rationalize the R&D is to think of it as an across the board switch and not JUST something for the 3.

Octagondd | 2016年6月6日

What if basic HUD like Speed and Nav directions are standard and more advanced AP HUD stuff like Augmented VR is part of the options?

Would a basic Speed and Nav Hud cost less than a second LCD behind the wheel? I am guessing no, but the cool factor might make it worth it. The little Navdy HUD is $500 and has Voice recognition and gesture control.

jamilworm | 2016年6月6日

@wj "cereichelt : Also as said before, steering wheels have airbags and airbags are explosive devices. Having a glass display explode into your face would probably not be the best idea."

cereichelt had mentioned screens near the thumbs of the driver. This would not be in the way of an airbag. The airbag explodes out of a small window in the center of the wheel, probably about 5" x 7". You could safely have screens/electronics on other parts of the steering wheel besides the center. This is obviously true because existing cars already have buttons there for stereo controls and cruise control, and thsoe buttons don't fly into your face when the airbag goes off.

My best guess is along those lines. I think there will be something cool about the steering wheel, not a HUD.

sporchiamarco | 2016年6月6日

you can just put the HW for a full augmented reality and then start using it as a normal HUD, when it's proven, then you can use the more sophisticated version.. after all it's all about software, it's not like ( and i may be wrong ) you could need an additional HW, just a better software, and this is a no-problem

michael.zeiss | 2016年6月7日

Hi there,

an augmented reality HUD was presented by Continental in 2014. http://continental-head-up-display.com/
Maybe it isn´t so expensive as we think. Elon Musk mentioned Tesla takes a margin of 20-25%. So compared with the other car manufacturer the margin is quite low and I think such a system costs less then € 500,- in production.

Let´s see what the future brings...

Badbot | 2016年6月7日

Smart phone or tablet display screen for HUD.
not expensive and tons of them out there.

TeslaTap.com | 2016年6月7日

Not sure many phones/tablets are designed to work from -30 to 150 degrees F! The auto environment is really nasty. My guess is if you stuck a phone on the dash, it wouldn't last a week in hot weather in the sun.
Common consumer devices are made to much lower standards.

A HUD with LCD may be an issue with polarized sunglasses (but they are allowed in other displays) . Vacuum fluorescent, OLED or DLP might be better choices. Production cost is not that much - likely similar to the HD Instrument display in the Model S and X.

As for screens on the steering wheel, the Model X prototype had two small LCD touch screens where the buttons are on the Model S. I suspect they determined that having physical buttons provide a better user interface.

jimmyjthetoolman | 2016年6月7日

I think if they do go with a HUD its continental. They impress me the most nice and clean and not to much info at one time. Pretty impressive.

alseTrick | 2016年6月7日

I want a HUD. I hope it's going to happen.

But even with a HUD, I think you still need the center display. For one, it allows the passenger to adjust the AC or radio/music, etc. And how else are you going to put your car into Ludicrous mode or open the panorama roof, etc? Use the app on your phone, while driving?

If there is no HUD, I would like at least some base type of instrument panel/binnacle to return.

yongliangzhu68 | 2016年6月8日

joel.trick: Did you miss the 15" center display? Tesla went to great lengths to explain that is was located and orientated with a new UI to make it more passenger friendly.

Drdpharris | 2016年6月8日

@wj I thought the answers in the ride-videos were 'cagey'. When asked if the display was final, the driver answered about the UI.

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