"And then what?"

"And then what?"

Recently I had a long discussion with some people from Mercedes R&D about long range electric driving. Apparently the German automakers will make announcements at the Paris auto show concerning all electric vehicles. They proudly told me about the projected 300 Miles of range.
I then asked them

"And then, what?"

When they looked at me I told them that fast charging (meaning a full charge within an hour) is a prerequisite for long range trips. I told them that I would never buy such a car when it takes 4 hours to charge it. And that the charging infrastructure must be in place when these cars hit the streets.
But maybe the Paris Auto Show will reveal charging strategies aus well...

This morning there was a full page interview with the German Tesla Manager in a Stuttgart newspaper. The most interesting Part in that interview was a statement that Tesla would be wiling to discuss Super Charger Access for non Tesla vehicles if they could cope with the 120kW of charging power...

jjs | 2016年8月22日

So far all the manuf. are "going to announce". Even GMs bolt is little more than an announcement. GM is not gearing up to build in any large volume. Considering the number of cars they sell the 30,000 projects production capacity of the nascent Bolt is really not much more than an announcement.

I sincerely hope someone gets into this game in a serious fashion. So far its mostly talk.

You are correct when you point to a Super Charger network being necessary for true competition with Tesla. Perhaps such an announcement will be forthcoming in Paris. We'll know then if they are truly serious.

Silver2K | 2016年8月22日

if everyone worked together and chipped in to build out the supercharger network, the network can quadruple in size with a year.

Silver2K | 2016年8月22日


martin | 2016年8月22日

The major obstacle will be the connector that Tesla has chosen in Europe, namely the Mennekes Type 2 connector that was never intended for the currents Tesla uses in the Superchargers. They extended the pins but the connector still gets very hot.
The German automakers will want to use the CCS connector that is basically a Standard Type 2 plug with the addition of two high current DC pins. Looks clumsy but is Safe. In addition Europe uses a standard charging protocol that is very different from both ChaDeMo and Tesla.
So we will have to wait and See...

Bighorn | 2016年8月22日

Tesla has offered access to others from the beginning.

barrykmd | 2016年8月22日

It's really a dumb move for every mfr to have different connectors. They really should come to some consensus.

Maybe it was different in the early days of cars, but imagine if each car mfr had a different shape and/or diameter gas inlet.

Made in CA | 2016年8月22日

This has been said before: I will be really pissed if, after helping to finance Tesla's network by purchasing Teslas, I have to wait at a Supercharger for a non-Tesla vehicle to charge.

Silver2K | 2016年8月22日


that's why I said if they all chip in, they can quadruple the supercharger network in a year.


we are going into a similar battle of standardizing as did these techs did for example:

Betamax vs VHS

blu ray vs hd dvd

martin | 2016年8月22日

@Made in CA:
Well, if done right, all could benefit. If, say, Mercedes chimes in to pay its fair share to expand the SC network and thereby speeds up the expansion all would benefit...

Silver2K | 2016年8月22日

Am I typing my responses in Swahili?

martin | 2016年8月22日

I don't think so. But when I typed my response, yours didn't show up in my Browser yet...

Millionmilesorbust | 2016年8月22日

@silver im having trouble reading your text. its in some foreign language that ive never seen before. please check your computer settings to make sure its set to English, that will surely fix your problem.

No seriously you just cant fix stupid/laziness, most people wont read other responses. Go on yahoo answers and ask "Is the sky blue?" youll get 1000 people all replying days apart saying yes. It the nature of forums, that's why the threads containing peoples referral codes will never end.

Millionmilesorbust | 2016年8月22日

Also If 2 people are typing a new response at the same time someone wont see if until they post theirs, maybe the forums should have a timestamp as well as the day the post was made.

rick | 2016年8月22日

All of the public charging stations in Ireland have the Type 2 Mennekes. Its works fine. ChadeMo adapter works fine also. Car charging infrastructure is easy. Making batteries is not. Big car companies are going to struggle to justify losing millions building out an ev fleet, when right now the cars are way too expensive for most of the western world's population. Tesla and Faraday and the others are better placed because investors don't expect them to make money for years.

rxlawdude | 2016年8月22日

@barrykmd - Ah, standards. As someone involved in healthcare IT for almost four decades, this call for standardization has been loud. The vendors respond with their interpretation of how to best interconnect or allow data extraction.
Their philosophy: "Standards are great. Every vendor should have some."

jordanrichard | 2016年8月22日

Martin, what was their answer? I ask that same question to every person that brings up that so and so company is going to have car that can go "X" miles without a charge. Great! then what?

Tesla has/is addressing the foundation of EV travel. Other companies are just concerned with how they appear. As in, are they doing anything to compete with Tesla. So everyone is saying "yes, look what we have coming in the next few years".

GM pats itself on the back for coming out with the first 200 mile range EV for the masses and gets all sorts of press. Once the smoke clears you will learn that the often quoted 200 is not an EPA certified rating, and this "for the masses" car isn't going to be available to the masses because they are sending all the Bolts to CA and haven't said when the rest of the country will be able to buy them. Of course then there is their flat out refusal to support (build) a nation wide fast charging network.

VW recently announced that they will have 30 "electrics" in the next few years. The press keeps repeating that, yet forgetting to mention that the Germans consider Hybrids as electrics.

In the end all these announcements are just PR stunts because just as Martin asked of the MB engineers, "then what".

tesla | 2016年8月22日

It is truly shocking how little attention the classic players are paying to fast-charging infrastructure. After the announcement of the Bolt, Chevy CEO Mary Barra was asked about fast-charging infrastructure, to which she replied "we have no plan to invest in fast charging infrastructure at this time" (Or something to that effect)

Basically, she is saying that Bolt owners will need to rely upon the existing ChadeMo infrastructure for fast charging. I have a ChadeMo adapter for emergencies, but there is no way I could rely upon that for road trips.

Biggest problems with Chademo:

1) Locations are usually at franchised dealers who have different rules on which cars can charge, and the hours charging is available.
2) Non-dealer locations are typically part of expensive corporate networks which are overpriced.
3) Locations are not ideal for road-trips, IE not located near interstate exists and highways.
4) The chargers seem to be down constantly based on my real-world experience, and reports on plug-share.
5) Charging is still fairly slow compared to the SC network. Best-case I have seen in the real-world is 75 miles in 30 mins, I can easily get 150 miles in 30 minutes at the supercharger. | 2016年8月22日

Here in the USA the three fast charging DC connectors are Tesla, CHAdeMO and SAE Combo. Ask any users who has used the three connectors and I'd be surprised if anyone picked CHAdeMO or the Combo. They are heavy, huge and even look scary. The power levels are typically 1/2 or less than Tesla's Supercharger although both are trying to up the power levels.

Then there is the locations. Superchargers are on routes for long distance travel. CHAdeMO and the rare Combo are rarely on normal travel routes and are often restricted by unclear rules (i.e. CHAdeMO in some Nissan dealerships may only be used by owners who bought a Leaf at that dealer).

Maintenance is also a huge issue, as these systems are not as reliable as Supercharger. Rarely is more than one CHAdeMO/Combo connection available at a location, so if it's dead, you're screwed.

Keep in mind, most manufactures don't want EVs to succeed. They only want to make a compliance car to meet specific state requirements so they can keep making and selling high-maintenance ICE cars. With that attitude, no wonder they are happy with the non-Tesla infrastructure!

andy.connor.e | 2016年8月22日

So other companies are going to take advantage of Teslas optimistic engineering, and pose a highly competitive market that Tesla essentially created.

Other companies should lease Tesla's superchargers in order to get access. If not, build your own. Tesla should get compensated for having innovative technology, - ESPECIALLY when other automakers want to use their tech.

Tesla should get credit or compensation, otherwise they should build their own. | 2016年8月22日

Actually manufacturers should be required to create EV charging or have to buy 1 extra ZEV credit per EV car to compensate for lack of needed infrastructure. For every 100+ KW stall, a company should get 5 ZEV credits. Also should be retroactive to 2012. We can dream anyway...

SO | 2016年8月22日

Beta vs VHS?

Well the porn industry help drive that decision. Hm. Could that be applied to cars?

Haggy | 2016年8月22日

Could the porn industry be applied to cars? I'll have to ask my friend Hot Rod.