....EV market really taking off.
Good for us EV supporters, too.
Good for the industry and us supporters, too.
If memory serves me right the Model S had around 15,000 orders before production started. [I'm sure that someone will feel free to correct my recollection if it is wrong]. Model S numbers were incredibly strong for a car company that had never shipped a mass production car.
150k all-electric cars on US roads now, adding 50k per 6-months, and accelerating. source: http://cleantechnica.com/2013/11/27/us-plug-vehicle-sales-blow-past-150000/
Yes the more EV sold the better for everyone and especially Tesla. Nothing beats making the pie bigger.
Please pardon me while I yawn.
The i3 is just another silly looking, limited range EV(but with an up-scale badge), and the i8 is just another Fisker (with an upscale badge). I would appreciate it, however, if you would wake me up when some real competition arrives.
The Model S has brought stunning amounts of technology to the car manufacturing industry in a very short period of time, and I am sure that Tesla will be able to continue to be at the leading edge of all of our forward-looking EV automotive technology for many years to come.
The Tesla people are quite simply right now the smartest guys in the room.
i8 VS Model S? Apples and oranges.
I agree the i3 is ugly and not a "competitor" per se to the MS. However, I took one on a brief test drive and thought it performed will. Some of the interior things I liked, some I didn't but the main takeaway is that if you believe as I do that EVs are simply better cars than ICEs the i3 is not a bad option. Competition for the MS? Only for those who want an EV, CAN afford the MS, but but choose to spend less and get a higher end Volt/Leaf depending on if they get the range extender. More importantly, for those who can't afford an MS, want more electric range than the Volt but not be limited to the minimal range of the Leaf, the i3 is a good option.
Bottom line: the i3 will continue the growth of EVs with negligible impact on Tesla. It's success will further break down and counter the false perceptions and misguided reservations so many have regarding EVs. That will only further increase demand for all EVs, including Tesla. It's a win-win.
All of those i3 customers may be sorely disappointed...
BMW has Tesla to thank for their sales. Tesla created the market.
If I put my Elon hat on, I think its a win that BMW is delivering any kind of EV. I think this move by BMW and the B-Class from MB and even the ELR will further validate EVs in the minds of the general public.
PS On a side note, anyone know what constitutes an order for an i3--does someone have to put a nominal amount down, or is it something more substantial like the Model S/Model X.
As I posted in another thread, it's a win-win: http://tinyurl.com/ph9e3mq
I am rooting for lots of i3 sales! The more i3's sold, the better for Tesla. People who will buy the i3 will be a two car household with an ICE for longer distance. The i3 will simply teach owners how wonderful driving an EV is. They will soon replace their ICE car with a Model S, still the only EV to go the distance..
The question I was curious about has been answered in that article with reference to the Telegraph review - once the battery is flat on the BMW i3, you have a big-ish car struggling along on a 650cc motor. Range extender? In name only really.
Apparently if you run the extender all the time it keeps the batteries charged up better and the performance stays OK but then it is NOT an EV!!
Saw both at the LA Auto Show. Not impressed. Both were locked and untouchable.
Tesla was not at the show. Perhaps it is a good thing. When Ford has an EV with a 76 mile range, why get mixed up with a crowd like that?
The car industry love EV with 100 mi range. Two years ago, I try to exchange my old prius with a leaf. The dealer was verry hapy to sell leaf but he added that I need an extra ICE car for traveling outside the city. In the end, they will get more moneys from you! Hybrid is in fact an EV car and ICE car put toghether in the same car! This is why I bought TESLA....
More EV means more charging stations in the cities and that is what we need. Between cities we have superchargers...
"BMW has Tesla to thank for their sales. Tesla created the market."
I don't think Tesla created the market for a short-range EV. Nissan created that market. The Model S has more than double the range but is also double the price. They are not really direct competitors.
The existence of a pure electric (if bought without range extender) from BMW will have a significant effect on public perception, I think. You can argue the superiority of the Model S all you like, but the vast majority of people are completely unaffected by the existence of a car at that price point. It's cool that it exists, but it's more of a theoretical thing to many. An entry-level BMW, on the other hand, is something that many people aspire to. Ah, brand name marketing... but the effect is real, just like the effect of IBM entering the personal computer market; at the time (early 1980s) the claim was that it "legitimized" the industry. In terms of public perception, I think that's accurate.
The other important point about the i3, I think, is its very low weight. It is not much more than half the weight of a Model S. Yes, the Model S is 25% longer and 10% wider, but... HALF the weight. It will be interesting to see if carbon fibre construction becomes commercially successful.
I definitely agree about the notion of lower range EV cars helping to create the market and soften public attitudes to this wonderful method of propulsion. I myself had a Volt for a year before upgrading to a Model S. One of the reasons. I was so willing to get the Model as was because the Volt had shown me just how great the overall electric driving experience can be - not to mention the gas savings.
I think the more manufacturers making EV cars the better. Also I saw a camouflaged i8 In my neighborhood the other day (we get a LOT of manufacturer cars here in Redondo Beach for some reason) and I think it looks extremely sexy. I3 I also think whilst it looks kinda "tweaky" still gets my vote over the leaf for style.....
@studiojon That's a good point. There are a lot of BMW owners and potential owners out there. They might never have paid attention to EV before. BMW is doing a great publicity for EV in general.
I tend to agree with your observation of i8. The only thing is it's just a plug-in hybrid. Tesla has talked about Roadster II for the future. I hope they do it sooner rather than later and I want one.
This may get a reaction....
Electric Avenue - I agree that Tesla hasn't created the market for anything (except maybe a very small market for 4,600 pound cars for rich people that go 0-60 in 4 seconds). As for range, if any of the car manufacturers strapped 1,500 pounds of battery to the floor of their car designs, they would have range.
The market for mainstream EV is being lead by Nissan with over 100,000 Leafs sold, GM (remember Volt was car of the year before Tesla), and now BMW (10,000 orders before it hits the 3,000 BMW dealers). The Gen III, if ever produced, will be 4-5 years late to the party at best.
The weight of Tesla and the associated carbon footprint associated with constructing it really make the ecological benefit suspect to me. It may compare well to the last 5,000 pound car to be very popular in California (the Hummer, over 250,000 sold), but doesn't seem to compare well to the Leaf, i3 or Volt.
Amped - as per your article, I believe the i3 scored average on the European safety test because of poor showing on Pedestrian safety which is part of the European test. I wonder how a Tesla would do on this part of the test?
So are orders from dealers that are required to buy all models that BMW makes? Or is this from customers that placed a depost?
I believe that Tesla has done a lot to popularize EVs, from the Roadster and now to Model S. Even though Tesla sales are small compared to Leaf, you don't see Leaf in the headlines do you? Who is in the headlines all the time when it comes to EV? Tesla. Not BMW, or GM, or Nissan. The latter get a brief mention now and again, but the overwhelming media coverage is regarding Tesla. Once the NHTSA clears Tesla and reaffirms the Model S design, media and stock market will go crazy again. All news is good news for Tesla, in my opinion. Constantly staying in the news cycle makes you a "top of mind" brand.
BMW has 339 dealerships across the country, Tesla has 43. Tesla clearly has generated buzz about EVs given its prominence in almost every news cycle, and BMW is able to leverage that good will into 10,000 pre-orders through a network of sales centers that is almost 8x as large as Tesla's. No other car manufacturer allows you to order and build your vehicle online - that is unique to Tesla - and so Tesla is simultaneously pioneering a new sales method as well. When considering the above, 10,000 pre-orders for BMW doesn't seem like much.
Your quoted Leaf sales numbers are incorrect. If you are going to compare with Tesla, you need to quote US sales. As of July 23, 2013, Nissan claims only 30,000 US sales. On September 23, 2013 Nissan announced 35,000 Leaf sales in the US. That equates to 2,500 Leaf sales per month in the US. Tesla's latest numbers point to 5,000-6,000 vehicles per quarter, and at over double the price of the Leaf for each vehicle. Tesla is arguably doing much better given the price point. If you are going to compare sales figures, I would suggest at least making a minimal attempt at quoting correct numbers.
Regarding the carbon footprint, Elon has stated that the total carbon footprint of the car is still less than an ICE vehicle even if 100% of your electricity is generated using coal. He designed and built the car and is in a position to know better than anyone else trying to make an educated guess without having all of the facts and knowledge of the supply chain.
With regard to the critical article about the BMW i3 which I posted earlier, the biggest slam against the i3 is not the crash rating but the faux "range extender" which is not up to the task when the battery level is low. Forcing the driver to turn on the REX when the battery is pretty much full makes this a hybrid vehicle, not a true EV. That is the revelation there, which is quite disappointing to EV enthusiasts including the author of the piece.
Thanks for the link. Definitely troubling if the article is accurate and the i3 is often pushed to it's range limits. It may Broder BMW's i series' reputation.
BMW had a whole setup across the street from the show where you could test drive the 20-30 i3's available. Just register with minimal info including your driver's license, a 1 minute primer then get in the car and drive the pre-determined route without anyone from BMW in the car.
I think the i3 may have a hard time competing with the Volt, let alone the Model S.
Certainly in the looks department it fails miserably compared to the Volt. It even makes the Leaf look somewhat attractive!
While many are interested in EVs in general and Tesla in particular due to the co2 issue (I'm not one of them), nearly everyone who expresses their enthusiasm about the car does so in terms of THE CAR-it's performance, how it drives, how it looks, features, lower cost to operate, etc. Not saying you but in general the people who demean Tesla owners as idiots because they think they've bought a Model S solely to save money on gas or lower co2 are as ignorant as any other hate group.
As for total co2 produced in the production and operation of the MS, there are lengthy articles and rebuttals on both sides. I don't know who's correct but I wouldn't trust some of the authors, guys such as John Peterson. I'd also note that the U.S. grid is far cleaner than it was even a couple of years ago and it's co2 emissions (again, for those concerned about it) are down to 1994 levels. This trend will continue in part due to very low nat gas costs (assuming the extremists don't kill fracking), the continuing drop in wind/solar costs and the huge benefits of EVs combined with smart grid/demand response technologies. When you hear someone deride EVs or their environmental benefits in the U.S. by implying that the power they use is mostly generated by coal, you can be sure they are as clueless as those who think wind or solar power reduces oil usage.
@SMinnihan What you have forgotten is Tesla has by far the most advanced battery and drive train technologies. The model S has 4x battery capacity (at much less than 4x battery cost) than all those three. More importantly the much bigger, roomier and powerful MS can achieve about the same EPA rated e-mpg as those tiny and slow cars. You think GM, Nissan and BMW could make some nice cars comparable to, say, 40kWh MS with 150 mile BEV range but choose not to do so and are satisfied with just making those sorrow little cars (by comparison) instead? On the other hand Tesla can make a car like the Volt, Leaf or i3/i8 any day they want but why it wants to go backwards? Do you aware Tesla has converted a Smart EV for Diamler demo in 08' which took them only a couple months from getting the order to get it done?
As for future products somehow you seem to think Elon and those smart engineers in Tesla labs are just playing video games there all the years and not working hard to develop new breakthrough design and technologies. I'm pretty certain Modle S is not going to be the only product Tesla makes that is what the world has never seen before. Tesla is like a lean and mean fast runner that also got a 50 yards head start. I kind of think those big and fat guys would have a very tough time to catch up with this fast moving target.
- yes, my quotes for Nissan Leaf Sales of 100,000 are global....just as your 5,000 to 6,000 per quarter are. believe its apples to apples.
- yes, as I said, i imagine rich people can sit smugly in their 100K, 4,600 pound car thinking they are saving the environment by not driving a Hummer or a Lincoln Navigator, but the total carbon footprint is high vs a volt, i3, leaf, etc or hybrid such as the prius for that matter.
- in terms of Tesla have any real impact on the environment with its Gen III vehicle, I look forward to the clay model Elon mentioned will be out in 2015. Again, anything that Tesla puts out will be quite late to the party.
- All that said, its been fun to watch Elon with CNBC interviews, tweets, etc. Given Gen III is a concept and a idea vs anything else, I imagine most of the PR activity is around managing fire news, stock price and selling S's and X's vs truly devoting resources to developing a mainstream EV.
- i stick with my assertion that GM, Nissan and BMW are leading the mainstream EV revolution. Good that Tesla is there though. Someone has to make the EV's for rich people looking for a tax break.
Let's see....plants need CO2 to produce O2. Animals need O2 to produce CO2. Why is this so hard and controversial to understand?
"... rich people can sit smugly...".
Now I see where you're coming from. So go ahead, you sit smugly in your 1995 Honda Civic and save the planet. Of course your old car doesn't support as many jobs as a new car and that foreign made car supports even fewer American jobs. On the other hand, Model S owners can enjoy their great car while feeling good that the car they bought helped create American jobs since it likely came at the expense of a car made in another country. Yes the batteries are made in Japan but I'll take that since the energy to charge those batteries is 100% domestic (again, American jobs and many blue collar) as opposed to roughly 1/3 of the money you spend on gas going to other countries including Venezuela, Iran and indirectly to Russia by supporting oil prices.
As for disparaging the rich in general, my experience is that the people who engage in this are mostly jealous, unambitious losers, hypocrites, or have a non-altruistic vested interest with these attacks. Which are you?
Final note: only the "rich" had cell phones when they first came out but recently the government was giving them out for free to the homeless. You think it would be better for no one to have something if everyone can't afford it? The middle class and lower middle class people who's lives have been saved by cellphones would strongly disagree. The rich or those who are really stretching themselves to buy the Model S are paving the way for an affordable EV for the masses. And I thank them for it.
What is so wrong with plug in hybrids anyway. In Norway we have a saying (probably in English too, but I don't want to provoke Brian) "the best is the good's worst enemy". If hybrids are making 80% of the traffic go electric, Is that something bad? And if tesla s had a range extender, helping you to the next charging station when you really are in trouble, would that make tesla s a worse car?
@SMinnihan Are you trying to ignore what I said about Tesla has converted a Smart to EV in 08' and is supplying MB and Toyota battery packs and EV drive trains? Tesla could make an affordable EV anytime they want to but to make it in large volume they need billions of dollars to invest in manufacturing and the markteting prowess of those big auto companies. Tesla had to start from low volume specialty cars to get people's attention of EV and to earn incomes to finance development of future low cost product. Everything has followed the plane to the dot.
Tesla is the one that has opened to door for the other companies. It is taking the lead because those big auto companies did not want to and are only forced to do so now. Even with that none of them has addressed the fast charging infrastructure issue yet. Tesla is taking the a lead in this area as well. The rest can only follow.
@SMinnihan, having fun yet? Have you seen Mr. Smith 1 recently?
@ SMinnihan - I don't understand how you can say Gen III would be 4-5 years "late to the party". You must be talking about the <100 mile range party. Leaf gets under 70 miles range, Volt gets 40 miles range, and BMW i3 gets 65 mile EV range. Model E/Gen III will have minimum 200 mile range and likely an option for 300+ mile range. I guess Tesla will have its own party, as nobody currently produces an EV that can compete on that level. So what party, exactly, are you talking about?
@SMinnihan already posted about i3/i8 in at least four different threads. Guess who he is working for and what his true interests are?
He actually started all those threads and spread the FUD about carbon footprint nonsense.
He might even be @smith1 if you read between the lines...
If there is a Roadster 2 - then I'm signing up!!
These are Tesla training cars. Once you find out EV works the next thing you want is range and the only choice for range is Tesla.
Something like, "The perfect is the enemy of the good."
If TM were trying to defeat and overwhelm the majors' EV efforts, it would put out the quickest version of the GenIII it could. The range difference alone would clean the floor with Leafs, Volts, etc. But the priorities are different: expand the entire EV market, produce the best car at the $35K price possible, not over-stretch capital resources. So it will be happy to share the market with any worthy competitor.
But it will still dominate massively.
SMinnihan is clearly a troll working for BMW and should be ignored. In addition to starting this thread supporting BMW and the negative posts about Tesla above, here is a smattering of other recent posts (the top five that come from volkerizing his name), all either promoting BMW or negative about Tesla:
BMW I3 ALREADY AT 8,000 ORDERS BEFORE EVEN HITS SHOWROOM...
SMinnihan | OCTOBER 14, 2013
Green revolution is picking up steam...good stuffhttp://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-14/bmw-mulls-boosting-electric-car...
Thread:MIT TECHNOLOGY REVIEW OF TESLA FIRE - GOOD NEWS AND BAD NEWS
SMinnihan | OCTOBER 6, 2013http://www.technologyreview.com/view/519921/what-the-tesla-battery-fire-...
Interesting (and seemingly unbiased) article on Tesla fire. I wonder if a design where the lithium-ion batteries weren't spread across such a big area of the floor would make the Tesla less susceptible to road debris and safer. I guess there is always room for improvement and I'm sure Elon will figure it out.
SMinnihan | OCTOBER 6, 2013
That stat I'd love to see, but I'm sure is not available is the frequency at which high-end cars catch on fire which is probably a better apples to apples comparison. As much of the premium we pay for Mercedes, BMW, Volvos, etc., is safety, I wonder how often fires occur in these cars.
Thread:"TESLA S ON ORDER....SHOULD I POSTPONE ?"
SMinnihan | NOVEMBER 9, 2013
Postpone. Resale value of a 2014 Tesla will be higher than 2013 Tesla and peace of mind Tesla will clear up Drive Train issues ("hum issues") and NTHSA investigation.
Thread:OPEN LETTER TO TESLA MOTORS, ARE YOU STILL SERIOUS ABOUT THIS FORUM?
SMinnihan | NOVEMBER 24, 2013 NEW
RZippel - agree. For a company whose stated mission is to challenge the establishment, Tesla is certainly displaying a "Big Brother" mentality in deleting so many threads that may be critical of the car or Elon's statements to the public.
Thread:"FIRST THEY IGNORE YOU.......
SMinnihan | NOVEMBER 24, 2013
Kal el - the us government has been subsidizing tesla from its beginning through loan interest loans, tax subisidies, etc. goldman sachs took them public. with few exceptions, Wall Street has been very supportive of the company. The establishment has never ignored or laughed at Tesla. On the contrary, the establishment has nurtured the company into the $17 billion public company it is today.
I say we Flag his posts into oblivion.
@mdemetri He is a troll for sure but the more he brings up this subject the more it becomes obvious Tesla is making BMW and the likes sweating. I don't mind him to be here fighting his losing battle at all.
@studiojon Yes me too. Some high level Tesla excecutive I don't remember who said a while ago the Roadster II will be something like you have never seen before. I could not wait.
Dual motor AWD with torque vectoring.
Low weight 3500 lb with 400 mile range (or 200 mile range at 100mph)
Maybe after Gen 3?
The i3 will be some good competition for the Chevy Volt. I would be interested in seeing a comparison of the two. I welcome more EVs to the table, even if they are plug-in hybrids. That means more people will be familiar with the advantages of EVs. More people will then compare offerings. And more customers will come to Tesla.
@SM - The vampires had a stake ran through their hearts.
Cold weather energy concerns are exaggerated.
You can find extensive political threads in the "General" section of the forums.
I am much happier that Tesla is raising the bar on EV's rather than just bringing up the rear like BMW. In fact, the I3 really brings nothing new to the table except for being a more expensive Volt or a Leaf with less range!
I have absolutely no interest in a hybrid. I went full EV to get away from gas, oil, antifreeze, power steering fluid, transmission fluid etc etc etc.
I hybrid is is a duck. Why double the complexity for minimal total gain.
Tesla is pretty cheap for what you get for your buck. Love the simplicity.
I agree, Roamer. I'll go all gas or all electric.
No compromises. Too many systems to maintain and too many moving parts for my taste when it comes to hybrids.
I wasn't going to go electric until someone got it right and made a real car, with real range and respectable performance.
Tesla did just that.
I have a lot of respect for ducks though. I'm looking forward to an amphibious electric car.
The fact that you're here disparaging Tesla and its ownership is clear evidence that you are drawn to the very product and crowd that you appear to despise so much. Your words drip with such ignorance, negativity and fear that it's clear Tesla is succeeding in its mission. You come here to the Tesla forums to spread FUD, why don't you go to a general EV enthusiast forum instead? Or the BMW forum? It seems to me that if those vehicles excite you the most, you should participate in those forums to express your excitement among others who feel the same as you.
Yet you come here. I wonder why that is?
Personally I think these low range EVs don't help much, in that they are automatically viewed as hampered semi-usable cars. Whereas, the Tesla may be expensive but it's the best car in the world, with very few downsides. That's what you want to drive the market, in my uneducated opinion.