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Tesla Model X vs Apple Car

Tesla Model X vs Apple Car

I ordered Tesla Model X. 18223.

I am wondering if anyone here going to cancel order for Tesla Model X if Apple in next Wednesday announce Apple eCar?
What if they announce 500 mile range for 80k for SUV?

ps: This is hypothetical question I don't have any inside info or whatever :)

TonyInNH | 5 september 2015

A few reasons why I wouldn't buy a car from Apple

1. They would most likely outsource all the manufacturing
2. It would be more expensive than a Tesla

TonyInNH | 5 september 2015

Oops, hit the submit prematurely

3. It would most likely only work with Apple products utilizing some unique proprietary type of connector.

buickguy | 5 september 2015

Apple car? Years away into the future. I drive now. Let's not even talk about superchargers or service infrastructure or automotive reputation.

ir | 5 september 2015

Might as well ask if you'd cancel your MX order to order the Audi / BMW / MB vapor Tesla killer EV.

shop | 6 september 2015

Earliest credible date for an Apple car is 2020.

grant10k | 6 september 2015

500 miles range? It'd be impressive but not that impressive. Gas cars don't typically get 500 miles, and they can have all the range they want with a big enough tank. So either this Apple car has a gigantic battery (in which case it's nearly at the point where you buy the car for the battery and then throw out the rest of the car) or it's crazy light to get that range.

If 500 mi range is its only claim to fame, then it doesn't really have a lot going for it. Unless you throw in some more hypotheticals, my reservation isn't moving.

It seems weird for a company like Apple to make a car, but then Samsung makes cars so what do I know.

Ross1 | 6 september 2015

If you had 200 billion in the bank, like Apple does, that is two hundred thousand million, how would you spend it?

Obviously to multiply it again and again.

Building a car just sits on the platform (ugh) of all their other product..

Like, the same for Mr Google.

I think I read that a trillion dollar notes stacked would reach the moon.

Anyone know the detail of that?

Ross1 | 6 september 2015

Actually here is the answer. Someone should tell Elon.

http://www.wired.com/2011/09/stacking-one-trillion-dollars/

Red Sage ca us | 6 september 2015

200 billion buckadollars?

I'd have my own space program and go to Mars.

teslagiddy | 6 september 2015

Tesla X is to Apple car as pi is to i (one is real the other imaginary)

Sleepydoc1 | 6 september 2015

+1 Thanks for the laugh Teslagiddy!

georgehawley.fl.us | 6 september 2015

I piled up all my money and it didn't reach my knee. Can't vouch for how much money it would take to reach the moon. Also can't wait for Apple. Too old. Almost too old for the X. Hope they don't slip any more.

ram1901 | 6 september 2015

RE: original post .. Apple is reportedly working with BMW to develop what ever it is they are developing. So it is possible they would use the existing BMW store network to market their version of the BMW. They would likely outsource all manufacturing as noted above but have a built-in 'dealer' network to sell their product.

If in fact they plan to use the BMW platform than original speculation about Apple's interest in cars would point back to a car that contains a lot of Apple tech, including, but not limited to self driving capabilities.

Even with all of this speculation, it very unlikely Apple even has a prototype ready for introduction at their annual gathering. They may, however, do like Audi and BMW and talk about their future plans for a so called 'Tesla Killer' ... purely vaporware.

georgehawley.fl.us | 7 september 2015

While we are speculating about Apple's plans, think about this. BMW has apparently taken the lead in the use of carbon fiber with the i3. Body parts and frame use CF. This is vital to achieve reasonable range in an affordable car with a modest battery pack kWh capacity. BMW builds crossovers in the U.S. So outsourcing by Apple to BMW could create US jobs, if they build here.

I believe that Tesla will have to use CF extensively in the Model &#8801: . If I am right, they have a big learning curve to build the car with competitive cost and top safety ratings. If they stick with Aluminum, range will be an issue with a 50 kWh +/- battery pack..

georgehawley.fl.us | 7 september 2015

That's Model ≡

Red Sage ca us | 7 september 2015

EV WARS: Episode I -- The Phantom Apple®

Yeah...

Red Sage ca us | 7 september 2015

President georgehawley: Telsa Motors' Sister company, SpaceX, is well versed at fabricating carbon fiber components in-house. The Fremont plant already does their own plastic injection molding in-house. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that Elon has already instructed his staff to come up with a means of creating their own iteration of carbon fiber reinforced plastic (CFRP), which BMW uses most extensively.

Also, BMW has some lengthy commercials on YouTube where they endlessly rave about CFRP and its strength, and its lightweight applications. But the latest BMW 7-Series is only about 50-100 lbs lighter as a result of its application. It would be interesting to learn if its NHTSA crash test results are improved or diminished compared to the prior generation of the vehicle.

I am convinced that the Model ≡ will have no less than a 60 kWh battery pack. At 300 Wh per mile, a 50 kWh battery pack would be lucky to achieve a 150 mile range. You'd need 225 Wh per mile to be reasonably assured of a 200 mile range. However, the Tesla Motors supplied 50 kWh battery pack used in the Toyota RAV4 EV only managed 103 miles on the EPA 5-Cycle range test -- 36 less than the Model S 40 -- despite a 400+ lbs weight advantage. That destroys the notion that a low power electric vehicle will get better range.

There are a lot of factors to consider, but I sincerely doubt the likelihood that a 50 kWh battery pack would suffice to get Model ≡ to the 200 mile minimum real world range that Elon requires.

johnse | 7 september 2015

@Red
You have consistently used the Model S's 300Wh/mile as the benchmark in your arguments. However I regularly achieve low 200's in my C-Max Energi in all-electric mode.

A 50kWh battery, assuming that 10% is reserved on the low end, would provide 45kWh usable energy. At 220Wh/mile this would achieve about 205 miles.

The RAV4 EV, at the 103 miles for the same presumed 45kWh available is at 436Wh/mile which suggests that they did not optimize the CD at all for electric.

Also, the ability to accelerate and handle in a sporty mode does not mean that the car cannot get good range. Look at Consumer Reports evaluation that the P85D gets better range than their S85. Just because a motor can use more power, doesn't mean it needs to. Just as the P85D has "sport" and "insane" modes, the M3 could have "econ" and "sport" modes in its base configuration.

I presume that larger packs will be available--but not required.

georgehawley.fl.us | 7 september 2015

@Red and @john: Both on the right track. My thinking is that the Model ≡ will have to come in at around 3000 pounds with a 55 kWh pack including 10% reserve. Assuming maybe 5% less air resistance than the MS due to smaller cross section area yielding about 130 wh/mile for drag at 65 mph and about 110 wh/mile for rolling resistance and overhead. With 50 kWh available this would produce a range of a little more than 200 miles at 65 mph. All very approximate but I think in the ballpark.

Claudedohrn | 7 september 2015

... because I've had so much luck with Apple batteries, chargers, cables, etc. Just kidding. My child's MacBook Pro is in for repairs as I write this because it got dangerously hot while being charged.

I wouldn't own one if they gave it to me for free, because I'd sell it the minute I got it, to any one of the Apple fanboys out there.

DTsea | 7 september 2015

BMW composite parts are all made in Germany.

Tâm | 7 september 2015

@vrhunski

I wouldn't buy an Apple because:

1) Like its cell phone, its battery is not removable while Tesla's battery is easily swappable (that is if you have a robot.)

2) They do not open up their patent and keep the price so high that does not benefit consumers nor factory employees for Apple who $1.78 an hour in those Foxconn industrial complexes.

grant10k | 7 september 2015

@Tâm I don't much care for Apple products either, but let's not pretend they're stupid.

The battery in an iPhone is not replaceable for a few reasons. By forgoing user access they can make the phone thinner, and they can have a much cleaner design, and the downside is mitigated by the fact that the phone isn't expected to last much longer than a few years anyway. If you hold on to an old phone, you sort of expect the battery life isn't what it used to be.

If Apple made a car, it would be expected to last 10 years, minimum. Making it extra thin is not at all a concern, and there are plenty of places on a car where no one is expected to look. A clean minimalist design it not as applicable to the underside of a car is it would be to the back of a cell phone. While I wouldn't expect the battery to be the easiest thing in the world to replace, they aren't exactly going to weld it in place either.

grega | 7 september 2015

@vrhunski wrote: "What if they announce 500 mile range for 80k for SUV?"

Haha :) I think if they did that they'd change the industry immediately. Plus need to build 20 gigafactories of their own for batteries.

@Ross wrote: "If you had 200 billion in the bank, like Apple does, that is two hundred thousand million, how would you spend it?"

Long term investment and support of companies building for Mars colonisation. Also with a view to any of those technologies being used Earth-side.

@buickguy wrote: "Apple car? Years away into the future. I drive now. Let's not even talk about superchargers or service infrastructure or automotive reputation."

Yes. The only thing they could announce now would be a partnership.

Theoretically they could say they'll sell the BMW i3 and Smart4Two EV versions only, using Apple stores. Perhaps rebranded. Both cars would get a huge boost.

grega | 7 september 2015

@Ross wrote: "If you had 200 billion in the bank, like Apple does, that is two hundred thousand million, how would you spend it?"

Actually, 5 or 6 gigafactories would be a good start.

TeslaTap.com | 8 september 2015

Here's the total scoop on the Apple iCar: http://teslatap.com/humor/icar/

sbeggs | 8 september 2015

@TeslaTap,

Hilarious!

ian t.wa.us | 11 september 2015

@DTsea - I thought BMW had a large carbon fiber plant in Moses Lake.

http://www.seattletimes.com/business/bmw-plans-big-expansion-of-moses-la...

deeageux | 11 september 2015

BMW carbon fiber is made in Washington USA.

Carbon fiber is turned into carbon fiber reinforced plastic in Germany.

carlgo | 11 september 2015

Apple can put all their efforts into design and technology, leaving the grunt work of actually welding cars together to one of the many qualified manufacturers.

Apple could build huge numbers of AppleChargers, thousands of them damn near everywhere. If it costs $400K to build a charging facility, they could have 25K (!) of them for the couch change of $10bil.

If Apple does this, Google will jump in. We could see all sorts of alliances and partnerships and it is impossible to predict where this will end, but we can predict that things will be different.

georgehawley.fl.us | 11 september 2015

It's Tesla's fault if Apple jumps in. The Model S has shown the world what can be done with batteries and it is an iPad on wheels. What's the automobile market size these days? 70 million units/year? $2 trillion? That has to be a magnet for Apple. Puny as Tesla is, compared to giants like VW, Daimler, Toyota, etc., the company is already reaching $5B in revenues. If I were running Apple, I wouldn't screw around re-inventing the wheel. I would gobble up Tesla, let Elon be free to focus on Mars, rather than car seats, put Superchargers every 100 miles wherever it makes sense and make a run at the big guys. What else is there to do with all their money? But last time I checked, I wasn't running anything, let alone Apple...

Red Sage ca us | 12 september 2015

johnse: I think we basically agree.

Your calculations for a 50 kWh battery pack match mine. I use 300 Wh per mile because it is a round number that can be applied with the expectation of performance driving. The EPA rated the Model S at around 380 Wh per mile, but that includes charging losses from induction. Their actual observed use was probably closer to 323 Wh per mile. Using that rationale, you would probably have to average around 194 Wh per mile to get an EPA rating of 230 Wh per mile or less.

The C-Max Energi has an 88 kW, or 118 HP electric motor. The C-Max Energi is capable of reaching a top electric-only speed of 85 mph (137 km/h). The RAV4 EV had a 154 HP electric motor. The RAV4 EV also has a top speed of 85 MPH, unless you switch to Sport Mode, with raises it to 100 MPH. The Tesla Model ≡ will likely have at least a 300 HP electric motor in RWD trim, and two 200 HP motors as an AWD vehicle. I expect its top speed will be at least 130 MPH. Tesla will have a lot of work ahead of them to make Model ≡ a substantially more efficient vehicle than Model S or Model X, but it will not be gimped as are the offerings from traditional automobile manufacturers.

There is a video on YouTube where Toyota engineers rave about the effort they put into reducing the coefficient of drag for the RAV4 EV. They got it to the lowest level of any SUV on the market at the time. And it was still quite a bit higher than Model S -- 0.300 Cd. I think that on the RAV4 EV, the small power output of its electric motor meant it had to run twice as hard to do the same work to complete the EPA 5-Cycle test.

My point was that the Model S 40 has effectively twice the horsepower of the RAV4 EV, but gained greater range. I believe that had more to do with quality of the motor than it did with coefficient of drag, or weight. Because the RAV4 EV weighed less by 400 lbs.

georgehawley: There was a time when cars like the Nissan Maxima, Honda Accord, and Toyota Camry all weighed less than 3,000 lbs in top trim. That was a long, long, long time ago. Cars in that size class tend to weigh closer to 3,400 lbs minimum now, due to safety regulations that bulked up everything, while also ruining fuel economy. An ICE car the size of the Fiat 500e probably would have weighed around 2,200 lbs thirty years ago, but today it weighs over 2,900 lbs instead -- with a 24 kWh battery pack. Unless you expect the Model ≡ to be a compact or subcompact car, it will not weigh a mere 3,000 lbs in any configuration. I suspect we will be lucky if the base version is an ounce under 3,700 lbs, even if manufactured using 'lightweight' high strength steel.

TeslaTap: If I didn't know better, I'd swear you despise Apple© i$#!+© as much as I do!

georgehawley.fl.us | 12 september 2015

@Red: Here's the deal: At 65 mph the 4800 pound MS85 uses about 320 wh/mile, as I recall. Of this about 140 Wh/mile is due to air friction with 180 wh/mile for everything else--rolling friction mostly plus drive unit efficiency(95%+/-) plus climate control and controller overheads. Let's say that it's 170 wh/mile due to rolling friction and 10 for everything else. Air friction is proportional to the coefficient of drag. Let's say Tesla squeezes it down to .23 for the ≡ and let's say the cross section is 10% less. So at 65 the M≡ uses maybe 120 wh/mile for air friction. To get 200 miles of range with 50 kWh available energy (+5 kWh reserve) in a 55 kWh battery pack they need to get 250 wh/mile total leaving 130 for rolling friction and everything else or about 120 for rolling friction. Let's say they use 18" wheels and save another 5%, leaving a net of about 124 wh/mile for rolling friction vs. 170 for the S. 124/170 X 4640 lbs,= 3384 lbs., max.

I think they can do it but not without a challenge as they will have a battery pack that weighs about 700 pounds.

carlgo2 | 12 september 2015

Musk might not want to sell because he is not convinced that Apple would do the job correctly or might just give it up. This would ruin his plans of creating an electric drive future. It will be hard for him to give up his control of the situation until he is convinced that the future he envisions is secure.

Apple's comfort zone is with social media

In a decade when everyone accepts electric drive Musk will step back and set up an office on Mars, driving around in a Tesla rover that he will have rocketed up to him, along with a metal detector so he can roam the shores of ancient oceans looking for alien coins.