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"Everybody would rather buy a Porsche EV instead of a Tesla"

"Everybody would rather buy a Porsche EV instead of a Tesla"

One of my co-worker asked me the other day if I was going to buy the new Taychan. I said no, I still have my reservation on my Model 3. He said why would I buy a Tesla if Porsche is making an EV. Everybody wants a Posrche according to him. And Tesla cars are setting up on fire while cruising in Hollywood. He considers tesla not reliable. That's what medias are building with their sensationalist titles. Irrationnal fear with disinformation.

jordanrichard | 25 juni 2018

Remind him that a few years ago Porsche had to recall ALL GT3s which were $200,000 cars, due to engine fires. It was so severe that all GT3 owners were told to stop driving their cars. All of the cars required new engines.

carlk | 25 juni 2018

Dumb name aside the fastest Taychan will be about the same as Model 3 performance model at likely twice the cost and without the ability to do long distance traveling. You are safe with your job (the day staff reduction happens the stupid ones usually are the first to go).

RadOne | 25 juni 2018

2 different cars. Tesla is a sports sedan, Porsche a sports car. Depends in your needs. Porsche is 85k, 77.5 with tax credit. 0-60 <3.5s.

RadOne | 25 juni 2018

Also 500km range.

carlk | 25 juni 2018

"Porsche is 85k, 77.5 with tax credit. 0-60 <3.5s."

$85K is for the base model. The top of line 3.5s version sure will cost a LOT more in Porsche fashion. BTW it's a four door sports sedan too.

carlk | 25 juni 2018

Also the 500km range is using the very generous EU standard. It's real range most likely will be much less than LR model 3. That is a moot point anyway though. The car is not suitable for long distance traveling without charging infrastructure regardless of its range.

TeslaTap.com | 25 juni 2018

I'm sure the Porsche EV will be nice. If someone gave one to me for free, I'd sell it and by another Tesla. Still I'd be happy if every Porsche EV was one less ICE sale.

I don't see it having any negative effect to Tesla's sales. Many ICE owners are still clueless about a good EV. Porche and others will help educate consumers and some will cross shop to Tesla, which may even increase Tesla sales.

SO | 25 juni 2018

Many people still think it’s EVs against EVs.

NO!!!!! It’s EVs against ICE!

Remnant | 25 juni 2018

@carlk (June 25, 2018)

<< Dumb name aside the fastest [Taycan] will be about the same as Model 3 performance model at likely twice the cost and without the ability to do long distance traveling. >>

Your message conflates a bunch of unlike issues into one, baseless swipe.

Name is a non-issue. People name their cars whatever the hell they want, even if their dyslexic critics cannot even cut and paste it. How is Taycan any worse than Porsche, Cayenne, Matrix, Elantra, or Macan?

Also, Porsche appears to have planned for long distance traveling. Klaus Zellmer, CEO of Porsche Cars North America, recently said that 500 stations, presumably endowed with Porsche's new 800-volt fast-charging technology, will be installed in the US at their dealerships (189 of them) and the rest will cover highways around the country.

Porsche claims the Mission E (Taycan) is capable of supporting a 350 kW charging rate, which could charge up the Taycan’s battery pack to 80% in about 15 minutes.

https://electrek.co/2018/04/16/porsche-ev-charging-network-north-america...

As to the issues of cost and performance, you better document your vacuous claim with some proper links.

Both Tesla and Porsche deserve a serious comparison of their potential competing models, not just drive-by swipes.

TeslaTap.com | 25 juni 2018

And we know how honest VW/Porsche is and can be trusted with all those facts. The big question not answered is when. When will every dealership have a charging station? When on travel routes? Presumably fast 800V DC charging? Since it's not stated, that seems questionable at best.

Tesla already has about 4,500 Supercharger stations in the USA (600 locations). Claiming 500 stations some years in the future doesn't seem to enable long distance travel anytime soon. I also don't think most owners want to plan their travel going from one dealer to dealer - yuck. Then will these be single stalls? ICEd by dealer cars? Available 24/7 or only when the dealer is open? Clearly it is better than nothing, but right now it looks like they are many years away from offering anything useful.

Ok, sorry for the negativity. At least Porsche might actually have a plan. Seems like other automakers have no real charging infrastructure plans, including GM, Ford, Jaguar, etc.

Tropopause | 25 juni 2018

Porsche better hurry and get their EV to market. Time is ticking.

Uncle Paul | 25 juni 2018

Porsche concept car looked spectacular. The production model...not so much.

The Porsche will compete with the performance Model 3, but when the Roadster comes out, the Porsche will have it's tail between its legs.

No OTA updates nor long distance charging will make it an also ran.

johnyi | 25 juni 2018

From other reports, the new Porsche EV will follow other Porsches in having a base, 4S, and "turbo" model. The 3.5s quoted is the "turbo" level. Base model is RWD and around 5.5s 0-60 (sorry don't have a link - this came out months ago when I was shopping it - but google is your friend if curious). So for the $85K base price you get the equivalent of a base model 3 (still unclear if SR or LR battery). If it's priced like any other Porsche, once equipped with leather, keyless entry, upgraded stereo, etc., figure $100K. and another $20K for the 4S model, and another $30K on top of that for the turbo model. See 911, Macan, Cayenne or Panamera for how Porsche prices these levels and options. No reason why the EV will be different.

Sure "everyone" will want one, but few will spend that kind of money compared to a Model 3, unless they just want the exclusivity.

mcdonalk | 25 juni 2018

In the past 15 years, I have been the original owner of two Porsches and two Model S'. My experiences, although anecdotal, should count for something.

I believe that anyone examining the past business practices, whether with regard to overall policies or individual customers of the two companies, would feel safer choosing Tesla.

One of my Porsches was subject to the M096 engine debacle. Porsche replaced my engine when mine failed, when the car was under warranty, while never admitting any design flaws. If the car would have been out of its 4/yr. 50k mile warranty, I would have had to pay in the area of $20k. The company never had a stated public policy for addressing this design flaw, and there was no discussion of extending the warranty I view this failure type as being technically analogous to the early Tesla drive unit issues.

In contrast, Tesla addressed their issue by extending the drive unit warranty from 4 to 8 years and phasing in newer designs.

Porsche has a racing pedigree that lends cachet to their sports car products (although the posters pasting the inside of the service waiting room seem to indicate that their racing triumphs were far in the past). Also, Porsche is associated with the deiselgate scandal.

Tesla has a credible environmental pedigree.

With Porsche, on must deal with the traditional dealership model for the purchase and for service.

With Tesla, dealing with the sales and service departments has been a pleasure.

carlk | 25 juni 2018

Let's put it in this way to wake up those who are still dreaming. If Porsche sells the 3.5 second Taycan at a "low price", say $120,000, it will kill those high margin Panamera or even 911 before it will kill the Model S or Model 3. IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!!!

The problem for all of them is Tesla is already making better cars than theirs in cost and performance. There is no way they'd be willing to market an EV that is price and performance competitive with Tesla, even if they could, unless they are willing to give up their existing market and start from new. No one could afford to do that. That's why almost all disruptive products come from new instead of traditional companies that dominated the market.

johnyi | 25 juni 2018

@carlk, I think Porsche does see the writing on the wall with EV's, at least from a government standpoint (maybe not US). Their plug-in hybrid version of the Panamera is a runaway success in Europe, making up 60% of Panamera sales and up to 90% in some countries:
https://insideevs.com/porsche-60-of-panamera-deliveries-in-europe-are-pl...

And that was before they unleashed the Turbo S model, which is also a plug-in hybrid. Too many customers are demanding cars that are smog/tax-free (or even eligible in the first place) for driving into the city. I'm sure the same thing is happening in China, the worlds largest car market.

So they know they have to sell a competitive EV as their ICE car sales are going away in these countries that are forcing customers away from ICE cars. It's the only way they will survive as a company. They are already expecting their EV's will replace their existing ICE cars. Heck they are even talking of an electrified 911.

That still doesn't make Porsche a "Tesla Killer", as they will always be priced 30-50% higher than comparable Tesla's and other premium brands. That's before discussing superchargers or dealerships or OTA. The Model S already outsells the Panamera 4:1 in the US, so I don't see this new EV making a dent in Model 3 sales (or even Model S sales). It's just nice to see more EV options out there, for those that would rather have something different than a Tesla.

carlk | 25 juni 2018

johnyi It's damned if you do and damned if you don't situation for those companies. They can see clearly Tesla is gradually taking their market away from them. Tens and hundreds of thousands of $50K to $100K+ car buyers don't just fall off trees from nowhere. On the other hand it's not easy, if possible at all, for them to make a competitive product and at the same time not to hurt their existing lucrative market. Price of a nicely optioned mid-3 second Panamera turbo S can reach $200K with up to 30% of it profit. Any EV that is competitive with Tesla would only be taking remaining Panemera customers who did not go to Tesla or even 911 customers away and generate much less profit, if any, for them. It's the same situation for Merc, BMW, Audi and everyone else. We'll see how they handle this but I wouldn't be want to be in their shoes.

Tesla's strategy is simple and straightforward. Just continue to make the best EV, which happens to be also the best car, even better and give the rest no option of not to follow. Not wanting anyone to die but I know where I want to put my bet on who's going to kill whom.

Uncle Paul | 25 juni 2018

If the Porsche is at all popular, expect to see another price sticker with the traditional Porsche Additional Market pricing adjustment.

Nobody will be able to buy one anywhere near the sticker pricing until manufacturing catches up to demand.

Remnant | 25 juni 2018

@Uncle Paul (June 25, 2018)

<< expect to see another price sticker with the traditional Porsche Additional Market pricing adjustment. >>

The association with Rimac might be more disruptive that it appears at first sight. Note that Rimac is a Quad Motor vehicle, with electronic Torque Vectoring, which also makes parts for a variety of OEMs, meaning a creative design flexibility that could feed Porsche's need for a new power train, price diversification, alternate marketing strategies and emergence of one or more popular models with competitive potentials yet unfathomable.

Whence, Porsche sticker pricing might be very different from its traditional structure and with a larger competitive potential than we could suspect at this time.

Uncle Paul | 26 juni 2018

It is not the Porsche pricing that worries me. They usually have a competitive base price, and offer very high markup options that pad their average profit per car.

It is their live for the moment dealership add on pricing that will make the Tesla seem like the better deal. While every new Tesla is sold at sticker price, Prosche dealerships take advantage of people with demand pricing. If you want their latest hot car, you gotta bid up the price.

johnyi | 26 juni 2018

@Uncle Paul good point. Imagine the uproar over the M3 if Tesla had done "highest bidder" instead of a reservation system based roughly on where you are in line and geography. They could easily put a $10-15K "early bird" markup on the first runs. Tesla could have been profitable much quicker this year, and we wouldn't hear "but I was in line ahead of that guy" whines on the forums.

But Musk isn't in this to make money.

Tropopause | 26 juni 2018

How many Taycans will be built annually? Where will the batteries come from? No one is killing Tesla with low-volume production and/or compliance cars.

Remnant | 6 juli 2018

@Tesla-David (June 25, 2018)

<< Porsche's definitely catch on fire. >>

Yes, in ICE models.

Taycan is planned as a BEV though, without fuel leak or piston rod rupture risks that caused the fire hazard recalls Porsche has experienced.

SamO | 6 juli 2018

EV Porsche's will burn if they sell in sufficient numbers and owners drive them aggressively.

Remnant | 6 juli 2018

@SamO (July 6, 2018)

<< EV Porsche's will burn if they sell in sufficient numbers and owners drive them aggressively. >>

A link would help here, as there has been no EV Porsche fire to date.

So, it must be your divination powers that produced that statement and I have no desire to challenge such powers, especially while they reside in an AGW soothsayer of your caliber.

SamO | 6 juli 2018

Do you understand the use of conditionals? Is English your non-native tongue?

EV Porsche's WILL burn IF they sell . . .

Perhaps you could link to Porche's EV sales at all? How many Taycans to date?

Remnant | 6 juli 2018

@SamO (July 6, 2018)

<< Do you understand the use of conditionals? ... >>

I had no choice but to flag your post. You cannot engage in adult conversation.

I guesstimate your IQ to be in Maxine Waters' range, 60-70, 80 at most.

Go back to school, buster, perhaps just a trade school, rather than academics.

You should also ask your mommy to hire a tutor for you. Your English doesn't cut it, boy.

mcdonalk | 6 juli 2018

Remnant:

The pejorative aside is unprofessional. Besides, I like Waters and wish she were my representative instead of the one that I have.

johnyi | 6 juli 2018

Seems SamO's point is if some idiot rams into a concrete wall at 100+ mph in a Taycan, it will likely burn like a Tesla or any BEV would. No production car is designed for such a crash. Yet plenty of idiots out there with more money than brains driving high performance cars.

Ross1 | 6 juli 2018

...idiots out there whose fathers have more money than their kids have brains...

What are you fathers out there doing about it?

FactDoc | 6 juli 2018

I've never seen a thread not turning to vinegar

Humans are not wired to civilized discussion over internet

they are made to speak in front if each other and punch themselves in the face when the insults are getting out of vocabulary control

NKYTA | 6 juli 2018

@Evolution, there were quite a few back in the day...

I tend to agree with your second sentence.

I disagree with the last. SamO clearly intended WILL and IF. Remnant is the one that drags this forum down on any scientific discussion and starts the name calling. It is unclear if he thinks evolution, lower-case e, is science.

I’m a firm believer that if you start teaching Intelligent Design in schools, the next step is that your neighborhood has let polio come back, because you thought that was a good thing and decided not to vaccinate your kid. It is irrational to ignore science and what we have learned over decades and centuries.

“A link would help here, as there has been no EV Porsche fire to date.”

This is the departure, and a common theme.

There are a few other posts I see from Remnant where he is just talking about the car...no hyperbole, no name calling, no us versus them, no MAGA. Who are these two different people??

Remnant | 7 juli 2018

@NKYTA (July 6, 2018)

<< SamO clearly intended WILL and IF. Remnant is the one that drags this forum down on any scientific discussion and starts the name calling. >>

Incorrect. @SamO's WILL clearly specified the tense as the future, then his IF introduced not one, but two contingencies: (1) a large number of EV Porsches sold, and (2) aggressive driving by the new owners.

After I replied by requesting a link. @SamO attacked my linguistic competency.

Then, naturally, I protested by questioning his intellectual abilities.

Note it was @SamO who attacked my language, and thereby "dragging the forum down", not me who started "name calling", which I did not do.

Get your facts (the exchange sequence) in order, before you blame someone for anything in it.

NKYTA | 7 juli 2018

“Get your facts (the exchange sequence) in order, before you blame someone for anything in it.”

Scroll up...

SamO | 7 juli 2018

Thanks for trying @NKYTA. Trolls who pretend to be the victims are the most hilarious.

I'm confused about what would a link show about a contingent future event THAT HAD NOT YET HAPPENED. What does adding two other contingencies about future conditional events have to do with adding a link to some future possible acts of potential owners that either did or did not drive aggressively.

What type of link might you have been accepted? What would have convinced anyone that a future driver would both drive aggressively AND actually buy any Porsche EV since there have been ~0 sold to date.

Bottom line: Porsches will burn to the ground because they will store energy in a traditional manner and Porsche drivers are a-holes who will drive too fast at some point. But that's conditional on if Porsche/VW/Audi goes bankrupt due to their murder of the general public. Dieselgate liabilities for massive damages. I assume that at least "some" people have a modicum of decency and will purchase cars from a company that "does the right thing."

Remnant | 9 juli 2018

@SamO (July 7, 2018)

<< I'm confused ... >>

Yes, you are!

<< What does adding two other contingencies about future conditional events have to do with adding a link to some future possible acts of potential owners ... >>

This is a ridiculous and false claim that the link I suggested would have been to "future possible acts of potential owners".

<< What type of link might you have ... accepted? >>

The link needed for predicting future Porsche EV fires would be PAST such occurrences, that you did not provide, without which your contingencies can only float in the murky universe of Apocalyptic (or hysterical) divining.

<< Bottom line: Porsches will burn to the ground because they will store energy in a traditional manner and Porsche drivers are a-holes who will drive too fast at some point. >>

This is just another sample of your proclivity for nonsense diatribe, hysterical divining, crude verbiage, and incivility.

Incidentally, all drivers everywhere "will drive too fast at some point". That's an irrelevant truism that does not appear to serve any reasonable purpose in your outpouring of hateful accusations against "Porsche/VW/Audi".

TeslaTap.com | 9 juli 2018

@dmm good research!

Seems like Porsche has maybe 10 or so EVs (not models) built and in use. At least one caught fire, so that indicates 10% may catch fire! Yikes! Where are all the headlines? That appears worse than the many Porsche ICE fires, which occur often enough that they rarely make the news.

SamO | 9 juli 2018

Lol. 10% is seriously garbage. Are the batteries made of kindling and chopped matches?

Remnant | 10 juli 2018

@dmm1240 (July 9, 2018)

<< Did someone say links? ..... >>

Good links!

@SamO could have used them to make his point, yet he failed on that front as well.