P3D- Owners, Following P3D- Discontinuation, Recourse/Expectation?

P3D- Owners, Following P3D- Discontinuation, Recourse/Expectation?

This post is for P3D- owners, please limit P3D+ posts.

As many of you know by now, the P3D- (Performance trim without +$5,000 Performance Upgrade Package, or PUP) has been effectively discontinued on 10/26/2018 as all Performance models now come with PUP included at no additional cost. Another way to say this is that you can no longer get 18" or 19" wheels on a Performance trim, as this is no longer available in the configurator, without arranging for post-delivery installations at your cost.

Overall, our car trim/type had only existed for 122 days from 6/26/2018 when the AWD/Performance became available in the configurator to this past Friday.

Let's start with the positive. We have a rarer Tesla. In order to get our P3D- equivalent, a newly purchasing buyer would need to order 18" or 19" wheels separately, smaller brakes (to my knowledge the red calipers only fit the 20"), and a raising of their suspension (perhaps optional since tires are same size). They would have to decline installation of the spoiler (though perhaps future releases may include the spoiler pre-installed, unlike it is at the time of this writing, thus you'll need to unmount), and ask for their software to limit their top speed back down to 145mph (as the higher speeds are unsupported by the stock 18" and 19" tires, again to the best of my knowledge).

I say this is a rarer Tesla only because when I configured my P3D- on 6/27/18, I did not want the 20" tires (bumpier, less energy efficient ride) nor the spoiler (thought it looked tacky), so I got exactly the car that I wanted. However, the larger voice on these forums seems to be that more users wanted the PUP, but didn't want to dole out the $5k.

We are still in the early stages of this announcement, so things can change just as rapidly again, however, what is known so far is:
1) Musk tweeted on 10/26 that he would offer a $5k refund to existing P3D+ owners with the compromise of lost free Supercharging (; Tesla corporate has NOT confirmed this at time of writing
2) P3D- owners do not currently have any expected concession at time of writing; one user on another thread claimed to have called corporate whom redirected them to a local service center to plea for post-delivery installation of PUP which the service center later declined to do
3) Existing undelivered P3D- configurers are being given the option to upgrade to PUP at no additional cost (needs confirmation, I read only one instance at one service center and does not appear widespread)

The obvious negatives on my mind are immediate loss of equity (for both P3D- and +), thus resale value. I am not planning to sell, but who knows what I will plan to do 4-5 years from now (or if I lose my job tomorrow). If this $5k price cut is temporary, and the cost returns after the "flash sale" ends, then this won't be a big deal to P3D- value, but any permanent discontinuation will more likely than not reduce value. The only way I can see value being preserved is if there are more buyers like me whom did not want PUP even if it came free, though I do not see much of this voice on the forums since 10/26.

This also makes future possible concessions for people like me difficult. If I am offered a $5k refund at the compromise of giving up free Supercharging, I will of course take it, this is a no-brainer for me, though I do not see the two as linked since I received free Supercharging for placing my Performance order before 8/1/18, NOT for ordering a PUP (which I obviously don't have, nor want). I am still awaiting the official Tesla announcement on this.

However, if they do offer all current P3D- owners a free PUP install at their local center, how many of you will take it? I know I won't, I don't want 20" tires. Maybe I'll just come to collect the parts and sell them online, will that even be an option?

What are you thoughts fellow P3D- owners?

Disclaimer: please avoid posting about how the car is the best thing you've ever driven, how its still the best car for its value, or anything else along these lines. We agree, we all agree the car is freaking awesome. Stick to the topic at hand please.

burdogg | 30 oktober 2018

The only thing I will say is...anyone trying to buy a car to hold value has lost me :) New cars are NOT investments - depreciate drastically the minute you drive off the lot. Sure if you tried to sell both cars within a year, then $5,000 would make a difference. But as time marches on - 2,3 4 years, that $5,000 difference is pennies on the dollar for the price point we are talking. The depreciation hit already happened.

Anyway, anyone buying a new car thinking what it will be worth when they sell it are...well, you can all use your own word...

Magic 8 Ball | 30 oktober 2018

2) Uhm, Fred Lambert is expecting and most "stealth" owners are now expecting also.

It was underpriced. Anyway, if you want $5k refund & free Supercharging turned off, we will do that.

-Elon Musk

Musk was replying to Lambert a "stealth" owner.

amanwithplan | 30 oktober 2018


That's not actually correct. "Pennies on the dollar" implies that because the total value lost is so great already, the amount of additional value lost after 4 years is inconsequential.

This argument falls apart if:
1) You intended to sell right away, you get an immediate depreciation of a little under $5k in value (as long is PUP is in higher demand than non-PUP)
2) You consider the Tesla depreciation curve does not follow normal ICE vehicles (see:

The curve is 28% loss after 50k miles when it should have been closer to 41% loss. Meaning that my $5k assumed depreciation is felt at a greater rate than your ICE-based comparison.

Mike UpNorth_ | 30 oktober 2018

I agree, I didn't want the 20" silver rims. I wanted the 18" black stock.

lbowroom | 30 oktober 2018

Would be nice to know how many of us there are.

lbowroom | 30 oktober 2018

M8B. I was under the impression that Lambert has the PUP.

"Obviously, I am extremely biased here because I have a Model 3 Performance with a Performance Upgrades Package which I purchased for $5000 more, but I think most people agree that this is an ill-advised thing to do."

Bighorn | 30 oktober 2018

Didn’t want the 20” wheels after having been forced into staggered 21s on my P85+ at significant expense. The fact remains that P3D buyers had no foreknowledge of what they were getting with either option package. Most of the upgrades, particularly brakes and suspension, should have come with both versions.

Magic 8 Ball | 30 oktober 2018

You are correct, my bad.

Here is what Lambert later writes and when you read the context of everything, so far, it look like the 5K offer is for both P and P+.

"Elon Musk confirmed that they will reimburse previous Model 3 Performance buyers with the difference if they choose to give up free lifetime Supercharging::

Fred Lambert

stumarg | 30 oktober 2018

Picked up my P3D- on 9/6. I get that pricing can change at any time, but those of us that took deliveries most likely were early supporters who gave Tesla a free loan for 2.5 years. While I will get the full tax credit, that is not a reason for Tesla to say that I am not being hurt by this pricing decision or that I have free lifetime supercharging.. All that being said, I'd personally be happy with a free FSD upgrade!

d_v | 30 oktober 2018

I think my preference would be 1.) cash back + lose SC 2.) add PUP + lose SC 3.) do nothing. I currently don’t think of the P3- as P3-, but as 3D+ which may happen if Elon decides to “add P” to the 3D, in which case the P3- is more devalued. I think Elon may be thinking that too, which is why P now includes PUP. Maybe the rumor that the P is only software is wrong, but it may be right in which case the P hardware is the only difference.

amanwithplan | 30 oktober 2018


I choose not to believe "the P3D- is just a software upgrade from AWD" rumors, especially since Elon had given some specific detail to the hardware differences and I choose to believe him.

If this proves to be false, and all P3D- is is a software unlocked AWD, I envision lawsuits going up immediately, myself included. That would be outright fraud on behalf of Tesla, which is why I highly doubt the rumors hold any merit.

However, I do believe at least SOME AWDs out there are a software unlock away from P3D-, only because a P3D- was software downgraded to meet demand during the crazy end-of-Q3 rush. This wouldn't present any issue.

If they offer PUP to all P3D- buyers, I'd be pretty happy to hear that, even though I myself don't personally benefit in any way; I'd be glad that others do, I know I'm a rare case (don't like the look of P3D+, nor want its features).

Magic 8 Ball | 30 oktober 2018

@amanwithplan Musk said the motors are 'binned' and undergo double burn in. The out on that is that all motors tested turned out to be up to P standard (I.E. the P bin is 100%) and they are now able to implement an upgrade to everyone. No lawsuit.

Slidely | 30 oktober 2018

Something to consider; Free Supercharging for life is not transferable, and if you are unfortunate to have your P3D totaled, is lost with the car. On the other hand, electricity rates are going to go up. There may even be excise taxes for charging your EV due to lost revenue from gasoline taxes.

burdogg | 30 oktober 2018

@stumarg - so what do you say about all the true earlier adopters...those who got screwed over on the AP 1.0 to AP 2.0 transition...Why do they get nothing - I mean, they are the only reason you are in your current boat - the 3 would not exist without them...Everyone is hurt along the lines of buying a Tesla - they are ALWAYS changing...always adding upgrades, changing pricing, etc... and yes, it rapid fashion. This situation is NO different, yet everyone around here acts like the Model 3 is the first car Tesla ever produced or ever did something like this on!

lbowroom | 30 oktober 2018

Different times, different numbers, different conclusions.

amanwithplan | 30 oktober 2018

@Magic 8 Ball

I can always count on you for useless information.

The full tweet read: "AC induction front & switched reluctance, partial permanent magnet rear. Silicon Carbide inverters in both. Performance drive units are lot sorted for highest sigma output & get double the burn-in." (

He was directly answering the question on "physical setup" when comparing AWD to Performance. He was also CEO and Chairman of the Board at the time, currently only CEO.

In Elon's response he differentiates a type of inverter (silicon carbine has 99% efficiency compared to other inverters) and that the motorS (plural emphasized) are bin sorted and receive additional testing care. People can agree or disagree that this was worth $78k (at the time) and then later $64k (to which I agreed, and purchased), but what's indisputable was that he was answering a physical hardware question.

If AWD and Performance both contain the same motors and inverters, this tweet was a lie.

Again, I do not think it is, because I do not believe AWDs can be upgraded to a full Performance without hardware changes. But, there is a chance that after initial production there was an internal decision to begin to include the higher tech inverters in both AWD and Performance, which would, in the future, allow for a software patch to let the AWD accelerate slightly faster and also let the Performance accelerate slightly faster (maybe shave off 0.2 - 0.4 seconds for each).

There is no way you can bin 100% of motors to be better than 95% of those same motors. That's not even what binning is. Either P3Ds got a top 5% motor, or we didn't. I choose to believe we did, and if a future teardown proves we didn't, expect lawsuits as that is exactly what fraud is.

amanwithplan | 30 oktober 2018


An excise tax on EV is many, many years away. Federal is currently trying to promote EV sales, not discourage (which is all a tax does).

Also, EVs are still paying the "gasoline tax" since most of the country gets its energy from burning oil, natural gas, and coal so its baked into our electric bill at least in portion. (See:

rxlawdude | 30 oktober 2018

"That would be outright fraud on behalf of Tesla, which is why I highly doubt the rumors hold any merit."
That's like saying the S60 with the upgradeable 75kWh battery somehow is an affront to your purchase of an S75.
That's like saying anyone with AP2.5 hardware should be pissed that it's a software upgrade to FSD.


Magic 8 Ball | 30 oktober 2018

@amanwithplan I can always count on you to be incompetent.

"Performance drive units are lot sorted for highest sigma output & get double the burn-in." is the only differentiation that Elon talks about. You took the inverter bait and are spinning it as a red herring. There is nothing in the statement that the inverters are only used for P models.

There is no lie if it turns out that lot sorting "binning" resulted in all motors being sorted into a P bin. If Musk new in advance that all motors were going to qualify it would be shady but they may have not found out all the motors were good enough until he said that.

You have no clue as to what binning is.

Magic 8 Ball | 30 oktober 2018

until he said that = until after he said that

amanwithplan | 30 oktober 2018


See my follow up post which itemizes Musk's tweet. He mentions two specific hardware differences, if they are not different, it is fraud, which is why I believe they are indeed different and you cannot software upgrade a RWD to Performance (though you may be able to upgrade RWD to be better than 4.5s, just not 3.3s; or at the very least not 3.3s all the time, meaning you'll burn out your motors faster, like Ludicrous setting on P100D).

Also, can we get off this topic, we are here to discuss P3D- expectations and recourse for discontinuing our cars in 122 days.

burdogg | 30 oktober 2018

@sromoda - now that is hilarious - different times, different numbers? You do realize this was EVERY S and X at that time - not just a subset group like the 3's here. I would bet the numbers are NOT as different as you think - and even at that, lets say a lot less numbers...then why in the world did they NOT do anything...I mean, less numbers means less cost to really take care of your true early adopters. And my example was against someone claiming early adopter... (and not to mention, this is just one snapshot example, I can pull many, many others that have effected Tesla owners along the way)

This is the same company that has stayed by the mantra from day one...we make changes as soon as we find something different/better. We do not wait for model years. The car you purchase today is already outdated....
Here is a post from TMC back in Oct 2016:
"The great thing about Tesla, they are constantly innovating new features into their cars on a daily basis. The bad thing about Tesla, they are constantly innovating new features into their cars on a daily basis!!

At the end of last year, I ordered my brand new, top of the line car. Went for the best in hopes it would be considered somewhat "current" for at least some time.

So, here we are less than one year later, and my $130,000+, top of the line (at the time) P90D is now sadly outdated. I get that they don't follow traditional model years like all other manufacturers. Is that really a good thing though? I'm on the fence. How many people are not happy to have spent a premium price on a car only have it be so outdated just months later? Heck in some cases, it can be outdated just a few days/weeks later.

My car when ordered had the best available following features that now, less than 10 months later are no longer true....
1. Nose cone was current, now looks old compared to new car.
2. Headlights now outdated.
3. Rocker panels, now outdated.
4. Don't have a center console (had to pay $1,200 to have one added)
5. 40 amp charger now improved to 48 amps for faster charging times
6. Standard piano black trim now upgraded as base.
7. Ugly 19" wheels now upgraded to be more in line with both available optional wheels offered.
8. Premium interior doesn't include latest features released a few months ago.
9. 90 kwh battery is no longer the best available
10. 2.9 0-60 is now bettered by 4/10ths of a second.
11. Autopilot now outdated.
Not complaining or whining, just stating facts. I can't be the only one bothered by having their car outdated so quickly can I ???"
It is not different times, this is the same company - which is what has a lot of us scratching our heads. Those that made all this possible, where is their kickback. Where does this end! It has always been buy the car you want, and Tesla is going to change and you are SOL when they do. That has been Tesla's mantra all along...Which is why we are seriously all scratching our heads at this...

amanwithplan | 30 oktober 2018

@Magic 8 Ball

Calling someone incompetent is bold coming from someone without even a basic understanding of what sigma means. You can't bin a whole pie to be 23%+ to 5%+ of the same pie, this shouldn't be difficult to understand.

Look up standard deviation and get back to me. Also, feel free to ignore my posts for the rest of this forum, you are never helpful and your input is not desired nor welcome.

Magic 8 Ball | 30 oktober 2018

@amanwithplan Myself, speaking as a six sigma black belt, you are full of shit beside being incompetent.

You clearly do not understand that a plus minus tolerance has nothing to do with threshold binning. If P motors are picked because they have a certain performance requirement and all motors end up meeting that requirement then all motors are P motors.

amanwithplan | 30 oktober 2018

@Magic Hate Ball

I love seeing variations of in online boards.

You and your alleged black belt are hilarious. I received my first degree myself 18+ years ago, so it has certainly been a while, but even among my friends whom have varying degrees I would never expect such behavior, even online. Whatever school you earned that belt from must have a low, low bar in its discipline. I don't think I've ever met someone who trains, especially to the level you claim, with such lack of discipline in their online behavior.

Perhaps you are from the 80's Cobra Kai school, hah. Either way, thanks for the laugh.

And I ask you again, respectfully, and sincerely, please no longer comment on my posts; your input is not useful to me.

Magic 8 Ball | 30 oktober 2018

@amanwithplan I understand you are not a fan of TRUTH. Take your stinky troll mis-information and talk of lawsuit and stick it where the sun does not shine.

amanwithplan | 30 oktober 2018

Also, I just realized something. Even though the 122 days into being discontinued is bad enough, it's not really true is it? No one received their P3D- on 6/26/18, the first delivery I am aware of was towards the end of July, and that was mostly around Fremont, CA.

My vehicle wasn't delivered until 9/1/18 and then went back to Tesla for paint corrections on 9/5 until 10/10/18. Some people received their P3D- vehicles within days of the 10/26 change.

natefl | 30 oktober 2018

I took delivery of my P3D- on 10/23. I did not get autopilot or PUP due to cost. If they offed to upgrade the hardware I would jump on it in a heartbeat and be very excited about it. I do think resale value will take a ding since they are added the PUP for free now. Like amanwithplan said not an issue unless I loose my job.

burdogg | 30 oktober 2018

amanwithplan - This is NOT the first time this has happened. People literally have been taking delivery of their Brand New Tesla to have it obsolete the next day! For YEARS now. But carry on about how wrong this is, like it has never been done before...

burdogg | 30 oktober 2018

I should say this - I get the frustration - been around long enough to see it...again, and again, and again....did I say again yet? So yes, I understand the frustration...I just keep thinking...this happens in life all the time. Even in the auto industry. Just don't understand that we should have recourse for it - what recourse, all saw the car they wanted, paid for said car to come with said items for said price. Car delivered with said items for said price. Day later, said price changes for new customer. What recourse do I have? NONE. I got exactly was was me. What was promised to someone else is their deal, not mine.

d_v | 30 oktober 2018

You can bin all the best motors you want but if the battery is the limiting factor then being top 99 or top 50 does not matter, they can all do it (or at least several tenths off the P). Then their is no “best” lie and the sofware unlock rumor can be true too. I feel for the AP1 buyers too and that was worse, but there was no bone head comment by Elon about that. There is here, and I could use the $5k for the down payment on a 2nd M3.

burdogg | 30 oktober 2018

d_v - yes, I agree, the root lies in the tweet by Elon...

ReD eXiLe ms us | 30 oktober 2018

Has anything worthwhile ever been posted via twitter?

kallian | 30 oktober 2018

P3- owner here. Took delivery on 9/16 and has been in the shop for paint issues since 10/8.
Basically I have used the vehicle for 3 weeks then gotten it taken away from me, which seems like an eternity.

I will take the $5k if offered. The unlimited supercharging is a nice perk, but a complete waste of time if not traveling long distance. Good for becoming a uber/lyft driver possibly.

I feel enraged for sure, a short time, where Im not even driving my car, and for the same price they include the PUP package. Its not like 3 months or 6 months even where newer offers are being made with improvements.
To me within 3 weeks, they changed pricing by $5k, not $500 or $1k, but $5k. This is significant.

Upset, you bet. Sour taste for the pop-up service center in Fremont (next to the factory for god sakes) taking 1Month to fix paint issues yes. On top of that, they give lyft credits that expire on Friday evenings, and they are closed on Sat/Sun, that hit the nail on the head for me. Yes they are being nice and helpful, but credits expiring on Friday evening and being closed for the next 2 days doesnt help by being nice. Horrid business practice.

I was for the mission, till that feeling of being strung high and dry at times, makes me look the other EV way.
The experience has been Sh*t*y. Great car.

lbowroom | 30 oktober 2018

"now that is hilarious - different times, different numbers? You do realize this was EVERY S and X at that time - not just a subset group like the 3's here. I would bet the numbers are NOT as different as you think - and even at that, lets say a lot less numbers"

You're just reinforcing what I said. Perhaps you're reading too much into it. The circumstances are different as you just pointed out. Your example was a technology driven change to advance the brand, had to be done, this is a parts pin marketing decision. The only thing it has in common is that it upset people but that's not enough to think about it the same way.

staze | 30 oktober 2018

I took delivery on this past Sunday. Tough decision to reject the car and wait longer for a DBM on White with PUP. The family agreed that we should take the care and hope for the best. Personally, I'd take the cash back. I already have EAP and FSD. Not interested in the 20" wheels. While they look amazing the range reduction was noticeable on my '13 P85 with the 22" wheels.

What happened to monitoring Elon's tweets?

seantyler | 31 oktober 2018

@staze, did they give you an ETA for your rematch?

burdogg | 31 oktober 2018

sromoda - ok, so here is another example that matches what you want (by the way, they all apply, it is the simple fact that Tesla changes things instantly and no concessions for those it effects).

So Tesla on the locked 75 batteries - go research that one. The price used to be $9,000 to unlock the 60D battery to the 75D. Then all of a sudden, they changed it to...$2,000! Many people had already paid the full price to unlock the battery, some even just days before...And then the price change - where was the rebate for all those that paid the full price???

You see - Tesla has always worked this way - so where does it stop?? Giving rebates now? Shouldn't everyone get something now? Why is one group getting special/preferred treatment over others who have been screwed the same or worse?

Different time different place? This was just over a year ago they did this!

d_v | 31 oktober 2018

burdogg, There was no tweet, that is the difference. My guess is Elon is so happy from Q3 he is in a euphoria and just blurted that out because he could. Also I would not be surprised if the P+ parts are soon replaced with better P+ parts, like 10” rear wheels, and lighter 2pc rotors, and this is an effort to get those out of inventory.

burdogg | 31 oktober 2018

d_v - yeah, I know - and that is why I scratch my head - why now Elon? That simple example of the battery - at that same time, they discontinued the 60D, and dropped the price of the 75D by $5,000. So this is a perfect example - all those 75D owners just had the exact same thing happen as is happening now. Exactly the same. Many paid for a 75D only to have it delivered, and two days later, the price dropped by $5,000. Sound familiar? hmmm interesting to note, the base price of the 75D is pretty much the same as the performance 3. Any upgrades to the 75D and it is even more cost than the P3D...Again - scratching my head...but ultimately all those complaining...all they had to do was look to just over a year ago and see that this is how Tesla works. And you are all surprised by this??

d_v | 31 oktober 2018

I think the Q3 profit, and seeing the end of all the major question marks is going to really free Elon up. I think the only time he takes money is if he needs it. He does not need it as much anymore. He NEEDED it during 60D-75D, AP1-AP2.

SteveWin1 | 31 oktober 2018

Burdogg, that's actually a good example of a similar situation. I guess the only difference there is that, in the current situation, Tesla was singling out the reservation holders to get screwed...and the highest-paying reservation holders. But yea, your example is pretty close.

burdogg | 31 oktober 2018

Yeah - I think the thing is too though - there were a lot more people affected by the battery situation. A lot of 75D (and some like 70D) that paid way more - and while one situation is early reservation holders...this situation is to the very people who made the Model 3 possible. Without these continual buyers of these higher priced cars...there would be no Performance 3 to complain about :)

I understand that Tesla is in a little different situation (not much) than last year, but they have chosen a policy before and should have stuck with it just alienates those that supported the cause even more for not being taken care of. Otherwise, most end up shrugging it off and come to terms with that is the way it is...and in reality, is fair across the board...they will continue to do such things.

It also is a great example for Fred - who full well was aware of this battery example I used. He had no problem back then....but now he wants to complain because it hit him. Anyway...anyone buying a Tesla needs to be prepared for these changes -they have happened in the past, and they will continue to happen in the future. Buy the car you want for the price you think it is worth. Don't look back from then on - what might have been never did anyone any good...

jcddds | 31 oktober 2018

P3- Owner. Ordered end of June when enticed by premium connectivity offer. I waited for P3 because I wanted
white interior. Only available on P model at time of ordering. Then a few weeks later white interior was available on any Model 3. Then if you had a referral code you could get free SC on premium, so I used my own referral code from my Model S. Then that was debunked because every P model was to get free SC. I also did not want the 20" wheels or spoiler. I was told Track mode would be available to all P3 models, doesn't appear to have been true, time will tell. Point is as all of you know, Tesla has made multiple offers/changes over a very short period and it led us to believe we were making the best decisions only to find out a few weeks later you did not. For me, since I did not get Auto Pilot, I would like for Tesla to turn on auto pilot at no additional charge. Costs them very little, they do not loose $5000 cash and I get a $5000 upgrade. Win win possibly.

stumarg | 31 oktober 2018

jcdds - P3D- owner here. I have EAP but not FSD. I'd be happy if Tesla slid that software/chip upgrade my way!

burdogg | 31 oktober 2018

You saw all the changes happening - wanted certain things, so pulled trigger to try to get certain things. Also as a Model S owner - you didn't know that these things change constantly??

drhelmutroth | 31 oktober 2018

I feel like buying soup from the Soup Nazi.

stumarg | 31 oktober 2018

I didn’t expect Tesla to screw folks who waited so long for the car and gave the company interest free loans the shaft so quickly

burdogg | 31 oktober 2018

You must not know your Tesla history then...

Magic 8 Ball | 31 oktober 2018

TESLA history:

A few whiny ass customers making a stink on the net about paying more than someone else. A bunch of customers that have a life. Super Technology, quirky way of doing things, safest best EV's on the planet.

The End