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Preconditioning Tesla Battery prior to Supercharging

Preconditioning Tesla Battery prior to Supercharging

When supercharging the battery it is recommended to be preconditioned on the way to the supercharger by simply selecting navigation, and choosing the supercharger planned for charging. Select the charger well in advance 10-20 minutes prior to reaching the Supercharger. This will ensure the battery is ready to receive the higher charge. A complaint by some has been seeing a much lower level when connecting to a supercharger, that was probably caused by not preconditioning. Also, it is necessary to change to different charging unit if a very low charging level is occurring.

My Tesla is a Model 3 AWD LR 18 rims

derotam | 11 januari 2020

This does not guarantee any noticeable heating affect. See https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/battery-heating-explained

In short, at highway speeds, in an RWD vehicle, preconditioning does not add a noticable amount of battery heating over just driving.

Now on an AWD vehicle, there should be a noticable heating affect due to the front motor that generally wont be doing anything to move the vehicle, just heating.

Bighorn | 11 januari 2020

The vast majority of superchargers give full charge, though I’ve only been to 785 of them.
Preconditioning draws 4 kW which is less than cabin heating.

derotam | 11 januari 2020

Public service announcement.

FISHEV doesn't know what he's talking about and has tried to say in the past that preconditioning used 8kWh over a 10 minute/11 mile drive. This would mean an average draw of an insane 48kW. This is simply not even in the realm of possibility.

derotam | 11 januari 2020

There we go again with the comments with no data, I wont continue the arguement as the data to correct the fish is here https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/temps-precondition-regen-data-graphs

gmr6415 | 11 januari 2020

@detoram, "In short, at highway speeds, in an RWD vehicle, preconditioning does not add a noticable amount of battery heating over just driving."

Unless you did it last night you have no data to come to conclusions about RWD on route warm up at highway speeds. That is unless you are getting someone else's data.

Bighorn | 11 januari 2020

7 kW is seen while preconditioning in Park. Most people aren't driving in Park. Shifting to Drive causes power draw to drop to 4kW in the Reddit data which matches my empiric data.

Energy traces are charted over distance, so speed is the major influencer in production of Wh/m peaks. Slow or stopped traffic causes the biggest peaks recorded while fixed draws continue to accrue with little or no forward progress.

derotam | 11 januari 2020

I had to do it last night huh...I guess valid data can only be had on the night of Jan 10. I guess I missed it then.

M-A-B-MCMLXXX | 11 januari 2020

JFC

Magic 8 Ball | 11 januari 2020

Is it possible to not precondition while parked or not park while preconditioning?

M-A-B-MCMLXXX | 11 januari 2020

Toggle nav on or off at will.

FISHEV | 11 januari 2020

"Is it possible to not precondition while parked or not park while preconditioning?"

Preconditioning comes one when you NAV to a Tesla SC and battery is cold. It is apparently on at that point whether you are moving or not. The actual spec sheet on the battery heating says it will work whether car is moving or not so stopped at lights, etc. the Preconditioning is still on.

gmr6415 | 11 januari 2020

@derotam, nice diversion.

In our prior discussion it was pretty well proven that during the battery heating cycle the radiator is cut out of the coolant loop. https://ibb.co/mtbf68S Do you have data to show that once you start moving the cold coolant (~0C) that's been sitting in the radiator isn't now being dumped into the cooling circuit? That could be one explanation for the stator temp and the battery inlet temp dropping once you start moving.

I'm not saying it is. I don't have any way to test it, right now (test equipment coming soon), but do you have proof it isn't?

The OP's post is about preconditioning on the way to a supercharger. Not tooling around for a few minutes after you've preconditioned sitting still.

"In short, at highway speeds, in an RWD vehicle, preconditioning does not add a noticable amount of battery heating over just driving."

As of last night (Jan-10-2020) you stated you had no data to back that up. Until it's proven it's hypothesis.

Did you take it all the way to a supercharger, while pre-conditioning, and collecting data points, giving it a good 30 minutes at highway speeds allowing the car to do what on route battery warm up is designed to do? Have you collect any revenant data taking it all the way to a supercharger, while pre-conditioning, and collecting data points, giving it a good 30 minutes at highway speeds allowing the car to do what on route battery warm up is designed to do?

gmr6415 | 11 januari 2020

revenant, should be relevant

derotam | 11 januari 2020

@gmr6415, yes. The radiator bypass PID continues to show bypassed first of all. Second unless it was bad software, there would be no reason to start pushing hot coolant to the radiator if the battery is still cold...but the CANbus data shows the radiator still bypassed, to answer your question.

Magic 8 Ball | 11 januari 2020

"Preconditioning comes one when you NAV to a Tesla SC and battery is cold. It is apparently on at that point whether you are moving or not."

Which has nothing to do with the question about being in Park.

derotam | 11 januari 2020

As of last night I said I had data that I believe shows what I am saying, but I believe releasing that limited data would just cause bigger issues in this forum. I am hoping to get some more data this next weekend as I will be doing a longer drive and I might be able to show what I want to show. This is a hard thing to get good data for since there are a lot of variables that have to be accounted for.

So let me ask you....if I precondition while standing still and get the stator temp up to say over 40C and then I start driving while still preconditioning..if the stator temp goes DOWN, and I show that the radiator is still bypassed, would you accept that that means that at least a portion of the preconditioning power has grown down as well?

I should be able to get you that data set pretty easily. I think I already have it but I would want to get a fresh sample with a greater drive time in there. Main values that would be recorded would be stator temp, motor power, speed, and radiator bypass. Additional values could be cell temp, inlet temp, outside temp, coolant flow rates....

Bighorn | 11 januari 2020

Preconditioning stays on in park if you’ve initiated a trip to the SC and hit the brake pedal. It goes off if you get out of the driver’s seat or you cancel the Nav.

derotam | 11 januari 2020

Let me actually answer with confidence what FISHEV fails to actually test before opening his mouth, whether right or not.

Yes you can precondition while in park and while in hold. The message on the screen comes up but that means nothing. The CANbus data shows it actually is working by showing power being routed to the motor while stopped.

Preconditioning is up to 3.5kW PER motor. This is an important distinction to avoid confusion. FISHEV can't keep his numbers straight either. One day he says preconditioning on an 11mile 10 minute trip used 20 miles, another day it is 33. He never backed up his statements with the mathematical formulas to get to the preconditioning power(3.5kW per motor)

gmr6415 | 11 januari 2020

@derotam. I've been looking at the that app quite a bit today. I'm ether purchasing the needed connectors for it or the Jack Rickard system. There's a data point of both the angle of the five way coolant valve as well as the amount of radiator bypass given in percentage. Are you seeing 100%? And when you are driving to a supercharger, in navigation with the precondition pop up on, are you seeing the same?

Secondly, in your tests are you driving at consistent highway speeds navigating to a supercharger for a good 30 minutes or so? Are you collecting data the whole way to a supercharger until you stop and plug in. Preferably one close to the highway, so you aren't doing a bunch of around the town driving between the highway and the supercharger.

Does the app have a snap shot mode? In other words can you set up a trigger, and it will log selected data points at X preset time before the trigger and X preset time after the trigger. Most OBD have a snap shot mode.

That in itself takes a lot of variables out of the picture. I really don't think you need to worry about variables though. There have to be millions of of different driving scenarios any car is going through, has been through, and is going to go through once the preconditioning icon pops up.

"So let me ask you....if I precondition while standing still and get the stator temp up to say over 40C and then I start driving while still preconditioning..if the stator temp goes DOWN, and I show that the radiator is still bypassed, would you accept that that means that at least a portion of the preconditioning power has grown down as well?"

I would have to assume so, but what does preconditioning at a standstill have to do with on route battery warm up?

Personally I think anything before the icon pops up is pretty worthless data except maybe a few minutes prior, so you can watch for changes in data points once the icon comes up.

derotam | 11 januari 2020

Yes the bypass was showing bypassed whatever that value was, I dont want to misstate it here. Yes there is the valve angle but with out further information about the geometry of the superbottle it means nothing to me.

Sure data before the message pops up means nothing. It comes up right away though whenever I rout to a supercharger.

You are missing the point...I am never actually going to a supercharger, just routing to it to turn on preconditioning. I am usually going in the general direction of the SC though.

The app has a logging on or off for the current tab you have open. The data on that tab is fully configurable. I could log ALL the PIDs available in the app but that is a lot of unneeded data. And I am working in excel and not using VBA so I can only deal with so much data at once.

I maintain that on-route battery warm up is just a name. If I route to a supercharger and get the precondition message I maintain that that is the same thing. Could there be a difference, maybe but I doubt it. If you really wanted to go there I could just stay in hold mode instead of Park..

Preconditioning at a standstill will get the stator temp up the fastest in order to show the temp drop when starting to move...at highway speeds.

Tronguy | 11 januari 2020

Sigh. FISHEV is present. Memo: When one does the PSA, make sure the _reason_ the PSA is being sent out is present. Whatever FISH is doing is an attempt to hijack and waylay the conversation, most of the time, so there's no real point in attempting to contradict his (fake) arguments. Remember: He's after the newbies who don't know any better.

Public Service Announcement:
FISHEV is a known troll of several years standing and several user
names who pushes an anti Tesla narrative. Please
take his opinions with a grain of salt, avoid any advice he may
suggest, and do not let him implant any Fear, Uncertainty, or Doubt
about Tesla or your car into your own opinion.

gmr6415 | 11 januari 2020

@derotam, "Yes the bypass was showing bypassed whatever that value was"

Using the demo of the app that datapoint is labeled "Radiator Bypass", but the value in the other column can be from 0% to 100%. It's going to always say Radiator Bypass, The percentage of bypass is variable. If your not getting the percentage of bypass you're not getting the correct data.

"I maintain that on-route battery warm up is just a name"

I guess you didn't read those update notes: https://ibb.co/TkJ5bs1

And if you don't actually perform a full on route battery warm up you're never going to get the correct dataset.

"You are missing the point...I am never actually going to a supercharger, just routing to it to turn on preconditioning. I am usually going in the general direction of the SC though."

If you are trying to prove or disprove the effectiveness of "on route battery warm up" you need to drive far enough at highway speeds, preferably before the icon has popped up, and then log data all the way to a supercharger after the icon pops up, or you haven't collected the correct data and/or all of the data. You'd just be guessing.

You have to duplicate what your trying to prove, not half duplicate what your trying to prove.

This is why I'm purchasing my own equipment.

derotam | 11 januari 2020

@gmr6415: I didn't say I wasn't getting the data, I said I wouldn't remember whether it was a binary 0/1 as it is for the brake, or 0-100%. Just looked, it was 100% and "radiator fan target" was 0.00RPM.

Haha that is funny cause that release note doesn't say anything about being required to be in motion. It just says you have to "navigate to" a SC which you can do in park.

Again you are missing what I am saying and ignoring scientific process. If I say that a process uses 100kWh in an hour, do i need to get data for the entire time period to reasonable prove or disprove that? Not if it is supposed to be a constant draw. But if the draw is NOT constant and goes down at a certain speed then...ohh yeah that is what I am saying. So I dont need to get the entire time period, I only need to show that the heating ability goes DOWN due to speed to prove my theory.

I can't wait till you get your own equipment, will be nice to have more data.

Remember my claim is that the preconditioning heating capability goes down at highway speeds. The only thing I need to prove that is to show stator temperature vs speed. Time means nothing though it is inferred by speed as is distance. All this with preconditioning on.

FISHEV | 11 januari 2020

"Yes you can precondition while in park and while in hold."

That's what I thought. Knew it did in hold as I see that all the time. Couldn't see any reason for NAVing to SC and being in Park.

"In short, at highway speeds, in an RWD vehicle, preconditioning does not add a noticable amount of battery heating over just driving."

Basically that RWD has no Preconditioning which would make no sense. 340hp motor could generate a ton of waste heat so no reason a RWD car would not have Battery Preconditioning functionality. They certainly need it as much. Nothing from Tesla says no Battery Preconditioning for the RWD cars.

derotam | 11 januari 2020

You should look up form number ID-10-T fishy.

Bighorn | 11 januari 2020

+1337

gmr6415 | 11 januari 2020

@derotam, You are saying, "In short, at highway speeds, in an RWD vehicle, preconditioning does not add a noticable amount of battery heating over just driving."

That could be for five minutes, and according to your data you would be right, but your using that data and your assumptions for posts here where people are asking about on route warm up on the way to a supercharger, and those people ARE going all the way to a supercharger. You haven't duplicated that and your statement is at best misleading under the context of the post.

If you haven't done the same you aren't proving anything as far as on route battery warming is concerned. The process may not be linear and probably isn't. It's like saying your going to prove you can swim from Cuba to the Florida keys and only go half way saying your done and can extrapolate out the rest of the trip based on the first half. You can't. The wind speed can change the current (water current) can change, there may be sharks on the second half, the waves may be much bigger, it may get a lot hotter, etc, etc.

You're using your data out of context in posts such as this one, which was strictly about driving to a supercharger not going half way and then turning around. Not about preconditioning while sitting still and then going for a short joy ride to see if the temperature drops.

The whole point of on route battery warming is to bring your battery to an optimal condition for charging by the time you actually get to the charger that your navigating to. You have it stuck in your head that all preconditioning is the same. It may be that the process in the same, but the circumstance are completely different. It may also be that the process is much different too, and not going through the full routine that the function was designed to do isn't proving anything.

What you are collecting data on is preconditioning while sitting still and then driving a few miles and collecting data. That's the end of it, but then you're trying to extrapolating something linear from that, which most likely isn't linear. It's going to be based on a whole slew of temperatures in the car as well as environmental data, distance data, speed data and who knows what. The variables you're trying to exclude are the variables the car is looking at to perform the function as it was designed to do and the function is to optimize the battery pack for charging at the arrival at a supercharger.

derotam | 11 januari 2020

I'm done, see ya. Not going to sit here and continue to go down the rabbit hole with you. I got you to accept a test plan and to accept the results if they did what I thought they would show. I dont even care if you back track on it because the data will be the data.

When you come up with a complete detailed test plan that specifies what specific values will be collected and under what circumstances, and further make statements about what you think the results will be and or what they would mean, then I'm happy to talk further. Continuing to debate this is futile. I said I was only going to talk on my threads in detail about all this and that is what I am going to do now. My statements and data in my two other threads stand until proven false by logical data collected in a well thought out experiment.

FISHEV | 11 januari 2020

“I'm done, see ya”

Now actual owners can talk about how much range the Preconditioning uses at various temps and miles to SC. All the number hash from disjointed data you posted ended up providing no real information with you puzzling over why your numbers and others were so different as to be from “different cars”.

In real world case, drive to SC when cars is cold and needs Preconditioning and see how much range it takes to get there. The difference in actual miles to miles used will give you an idea of the energy/range cost of Preconditioning for that route and temp.

Real world data has 11 mile run use 33 miles of range at 38F, 22 miles of range used by Preconditioning.

derotam | 11 januari 2020

Look at the fish, still leaving out critical numbers in his statements...time to drive that 11 miles?

gmr6415 | 11 januari 2020

Your data only reflects what you are doing. Nothing else. It has nothing to do with this post.

gmr6415 | 11 januari 2020

@drotam, "My statements and data in my two other threads stand until proven false by logical data collected in a well thought out experiment."

At this point your data does not apply to someone navigating to a supercharger, driving all the way to the supercharger and using on route battery warming. You haven't done it, you haven't collected data doing it.

Until then it applies to nothing outside of what you are doing.

FISHEV | 11 januari 2020

Look at the fish, still leaving out critical numbers in his statements...time to drive that 11 miles?”

Preconditioning is trying to get battery to a specific temp based on what it sees in the Nav time/miles. In this case, Nav says 10 miles, 14 minutes. From the Energy Graph the big spike in energy usage comes as soon as you set the Nav to SC. Getting a head start so if traffic time is less Preconditioning has front loaded the heating perhaps? We do know the result though, 20 miles of range used by Preconditioning in that one example. See no reason that wouldn’t be typical for that run and temp. It’s one I make a lot.

Garyeop | 11 januari 2020

Just trying to understand the takeaway for AWD LR. To preheat the batteries I should navigate to the a supercharger but leave the car parked? Or set charging to 70% overnight and an hour before leaving set it to 80% and turn on heat and seats while plugged in? Or just set time I am leaving on the charge settings?

M-A-B-MCMLXXX | 11 januari 2020

^ i’d do the latter, with a trusting assumption that the programmers at tesla have better information than I do.

Bighorn | 11 januari 2020

Set charging to an hour before departure. Completion time is limited by assumptions about TOU rates where it finishes charging at 6 am

FISHEV | 12 januari 2020

Good reason for Tesla to add "Preconditioning" menu, maybe with a "Estimated Time to Charger" choices. Off to the market and see they have a Chademo's on the lot. EVgo Chademo/CCS 50kW's. Usually 20 minutes so I could top off 30 miles, might save me an SC stop.

It's cold, 40F. No snowflake cold battery symbol but Regen is about 25% of normal. Plug in and its 15kW out 50kW with cold battery. Nothing to do but go shopping. Come out, battery is approaching 85% but charging is now up to 22kW. Clearly the cold battery was restricting charging. It has greater impact on the kWh/minute chargers so we really need a "Preconditioning" menu for non-Tesla charging.

andy.connor.e | 12 januari 2020

Sounds about right as supercharging slows down as your battery gets full.

FISHEV | 12 januari 2020

"Sounds about right as supercharging slows down as your battery gets full."

It was backwards due to cold battery. The rate increased as the battery got warmer and "fuller". Rate at 85% is about 45kW normally so with a warm battery the EvGo would have been cranking at 48kW (max I've gotten at Chademo) at 80% vs. the 15-22kW rate I got.

andy.connor.e | 12 januari 2020

If you use Tesla superchargers, expect rate to taper as the battery fills. Like i said, sounds about right.

For reference:
https://cleantechnica.com/files/2019/03/Tesla-Model-3-Long-Range-on-Supe...

FISHEV | 12 januari 2020

":f you use Tesla superchargers, expect rate to taper as the battery fills."

Here's the chart for you.

https://insideevs.com/news/349267/video-tesla-model-3-supercharging-v2-1...

andy.connor.e | 12 januari 2020

I dont understand your confusion. In that video when the battery was at 67% the charging power was already less than half of its peak. You said you were on a 50kW charger pulling 22kW at 85% capacity. Sounds about right to me.

FISHEV | 12 januari 2020

"You said you were on a 50kW charger pulling 22kW at 85% capacity."@ace

Well what I really said was"

" Plug in and its 15kW out 50kW with cold battery."
"Come out, battery is approaching 85% but charging is now up to 22kW."

It should have seen higher kW at the beginning and less at the end based on the energy charging ramp. Opposite of what happened. It should have been 48kW beginning and end at a Chademo charger which only does 48kW max on Teslas. Cold battery effect. Need "Preconditioning in X minutes" menu on Model 3.

andy.connor.e | 12 januari 2020

nothings changed with u

FISHEV | 12 januari 2020

"nothings changed with u"

I don't see any changes at Battery U. on Li-on batteries but they likely update as necessary.

www.batteryuniversity.com

ODWms | 12 januari 2020

Carpet for the win!

https://youtu.be/8d1Rb1qVe6M

FISHEV | 14 januari 2020

"This does not guarantee any noticeable heating affect.

Now we know that is debunked and Teslas crank out a fair amount of energy using "Preconditioning to Charger". Based on experience and the data, I figure an extra 20 miles of range for my 10 mile/14 minute run to the SC in temps 40 and under.

M-A-B-MCMLXXX | 14 januari 2020

@FISHEV "Based on experience and the data, I figure an extra 20 miles of range for my 10 mile/14 minute run to the SC in temps 40 and under."

LR RWD Efficiency = 0.234 kWh/mi
"Range" claimed consumed by (PC) = 20mi
Energy claimed consumed by PC = 4.68kWh
Drive time = 14min
Conversion = 0.01666666667hr/min
Drive time = 0.2333333333hr
PC Power draw required to consume claimed range in claimed time = 20.05714286kW

Smash cut to math analysis being "my number."

Either your experience or your data, or both, are flawed.

lbowroom | 14 januari 2020

Still can’t let go of this nonsense narrative that somehow pre heating took twice the energy then to propel the car. Give it up already.

Rikki-Tikki-Tavi | 15 januari 2020

Doesn't he have AWD ?

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