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Federal Tax Rebate under Trump Presidency

Federal Tax Rebate under Trump Presidency

I live on the East Coast and stood in line on March 31st to put in my reservation. One of my top concerns was being eligible for this Tax Rebate. I wonder if part of the new government agenda is going to be to kill these tax rebates before we are able to take delivery of our cars?

Red Sage ca us | 21 januari 2017

The bills passed originally during the George W. Bush Administration. They'll probably be allowed to die out on their own as opposed to being assassinated. Tesla's pretty close to being at the planned expiration level for the program anyway. What you aren't likely to see is an extension or modification of the current system to be more in Tesla's favor.

Haggy | 21 januari 2017

Trump promised to level the playing field, and Elon has his ear, so maybe Elon can point out that the only way it will happen is if oil industry subsidies go away, or subsidies for EVs kick in.

Red Sage ca us | 21 januari 2017

Unfortunately, the energy policies that went live on Whitehouse.gov yesterday indicate President Trump will be sending subsidies the way of coal and shale oil producers instead of toward solar and wind industries.

noleaf4me | 21 januari 2017

My belief is it will be hard to kill them for the 2017 fiscal year - who knows about 2018 but hopefully the M3 comes out in enough numbers that many can take advantage of the credit in 2017. As for foreign makers -- watch for a provision that the EV HAS TO BE MADE IN THE USA for it to be eligible for a credit and/or it will change such they all phase out on the schedule of the first company to hit 200k in sales (Tesla or GM) so not to unfairly subsidize early adopters versus late to the parties......

bmwgs | 21 januari 2017

Flagged

stevenmaifert | 22 januari 2017

I would be surprised to see the Federal tax credit eliminated completely, but not surprised to see Income eligibility requirements applied, similar to what California did for the CVRP rebate.

noleaf4me | 22 januari 2017

One way or another the tax credit will disappear some day. Let's hope not for a few years until at least Tesla and GM run their course.

dyefrog | 22 januari 2017

Rubbish. Tesla has already shown they not only beat the compitition at their demographic and price point, but do so without need for tax credit. Just abolish all ICE and EV subsidies and let the best car win. Just because GM, Nissan & BMW can't doesn't mean it's not possible. It just means they suck @building EV's. BMW 330i $38k. Tesla model 3 $35k.

Red Sage ca us | 22 januari 2017

The EPA lists something like 44 name brands for 2017 among automobile manufacturers. If each of them offered at least 200,000 qualifying plug-in electric vehicles, that would be 8,800,000 units. Roughly equivalent to half of one year's annual Sales for ICE in the U.S. We are nowhere near close to that amount since 2009 or so, when the Incentives were first enacted. So, whether they are determined to be a dismal failure and 'cut short' or not, it's still quite a bit less than potentially $66,000,000,000 in Federal Tax Incentives awarded over time. Presuming at least $7,500 for each of 200,000 cars, that would be $1,500,000,000 to Customers of each automobile manufacturer.

bmwgs | 22 januari 2017

EaglesPDX | January 22, 2017
This forum is not really run or attended by Tesla, advice you get here is simply people's opinions.

Badbot | 22 januari 2017

Flagg time bmwgs has plastered the eagles quote on 4 threads today.
cut and paste is being abused

bmwgs | 22 januari 2017

Huh?
Are you confused?

Haggy | 22 januari 2017

"Trump is not an original thinker and probably doesn't even know the EV tax credit exists. "

Then he should ask his accountant, if he didn't already know about the credit from his Roadster.

"I would be surprised to see the Federal tax credit eliminated completely, but not surprised to see Income eligibility requirements applied, similar to what California did for the CVRP rebate."

Rich people deserve tax credits just as much as poor people because they pay just as much in taxes as poor people.

"Tesla has already shown they not only beat the competition at their demographic and price point, but do so without need for tax credit."

True but it took a while for them to get there, and there are many parts of the US where they have a limited presence. The idea is supposed to be to spur the adoption of EVs. I could afford my car without the tax credit, but never would have shopped for it without the tax credit so I would have had no way of knowing that I would have wanted it. For people who typically buy less expensive cars, it can be a major incentive. It's not a matter of whether it's competitive with other cars of its price, but with what a person expects to spend.

Red Sage ca us | 22 januari 2017

Haggy: The Model S has outsold Porsche Panamera, AUDI A8, BMW 7-Series, Lexus LS, Jaguar XJ, Maserati Quattroporte, and a bunch of other flagship vehicles in the U.S. sequentially, cumulatively, and consecutively since the beginning of 2013. Only the Mercedes-Benz S-Class was able to reclaim it's former perennial number one position during 2014, before losing again in 2015 and 2016 to Model S, as they did in 2013. Even if one assumes that perhaps half of those purchases only happened because of the Federal Tax Credit, or other incentives? Then if only 50% of those cars had been sold over that time frame, the Model S still would not have dropped below #2 in class overall. Certainly there is a benefit to Tesla by having the Federal Tax Credit available, but it may have only been necessary to initially achieve the #1 position, not necessarily to maintain it. The Model S is, after all, a very nice car.

dyefrog | 22 januari 2017

I stand behind my statement that today, Tesla has shown that they compare favorably or better than their competition without any incentives. As to your theory that people who buy less expensive cars would not buy EV w/o incentives, it would depend on how less expensive. By the end of this year, the $30k price range will have reached parity with ICE comps. I fully expect by 2020, the $20k threshold will be breached. Ultimately, ICE's will require direct incentives beyond the big oil incentives they already enjoy.

Red Sage ca us | 22 januari 2017

dyefrog: Actually, I expect that by 2020 most traditional automobile manufacturers will have abandoned the sub-$20,000 price point, much as they already have with the sub-$15,000 price point. Reason? 38,000,000 units in annual used car sales at an average price point of $18,000 in 2015 for the U.S.

dyefrog | 22 januari 2017

whether they've sold with or without the tax credit is irrelevant. My point is the model S compares favorably or better with its competition regardless of the tax credit.model 3 will too. They both stand on their own. go ahead and try it yourself. Configure a Model S and compare it with the BMW 7 Series or Mercedes Benz. then configure a BMW 3 Series comprable to the model 3 for less than 35,000.that's without the tax credit.

dyefrog | 22 januari 2017

red, it wouldn't surprise me if the sub 15,000 price point eventually gets filled by EV's. based on the advances Tesla has made with their 2170 battery and the 35% Improvement in capacity. EV's will be the only car that can be built at that price point. it's range may be limited to 200 miles but for what it is that should be fine.

bmwgs | 22 januari 2017

"Then he should ask his accountant, if he didn't already know about the credit from his Roadster"
LOL-you assume he had anything to do with the upkeep and charging of his vehicle,or ANY vehicle.
Silver spoon in mouth and all.

Red Sage ca us | 22 januari 2017

dyefrog: Oh, yes! I agree. The only way to do it going forward will be with electric vehicles. But it would have to be done in a profitable fashion at high manufacturing volumes with relatively small cars. I remember a few years ago India had a provision in place to release a sub-$2,500 car or something like that. Even then, I thought it should be electric, but they were trying to do it as an ICE for some reason. I imagine it would have ended up like the Elio project or some such weirdmobile. Back then I was not aware of battery availability and energy density issues, but presuming that a post Gigafactory world would provide far more affordable batteries a project like that could become prudent. In any case, I really would like Tesla to stay as far away from the penalty box deathmobile market as possible.

http://www.utahcarcents.com/2014/02/the-elio.html

Tata Nano (Even Cheaper Than I Thought)
[ YouTube -- elkmt6T18Uk ]

dave.m.mcdonough | 23 januari 2017

+1 to ending oil subsidies which are much higher than EV ones. To truly level teh playing field would be HUGE for both EV's and alternative energy overall.

And Trump actually likes Musk, building GF in the states and creating jobs. The most American car you can buy right now.

KP in NPT | 23 januari 2017

Elon is in the business leaders meeting with Trump right now.

Elon is libertarian - he supports ending subsidies to all - that is a truly level playing field. But as long as one side has them, the other is at a disadvantage. Hopefully Trump recognizes this and can be fair instead of being in the pocket of the fossil fuel industry. Either eliminate both or keep both. Hopefully Elon being invited to be in the room is a good sign - news is reporting Trump wants to have these meetings quarterly. Hopefully Elon can keep making the case for renewables and EVs.

dsvick | 23 januari 2017

@KP - " Hopefully Elon can keep making the case for renewables and EVs."

Keep in mind too that he's also pushing for increased space exploration, unfortunately he may only have the time/ability to fight one of those battles at a time.

KP in NPT | 23 januari 2017

Agreed @dsvick.

The real question is if Trump will put his money where is mouth is with jobs - all indications are that is the one thing that might help renewables. The US could be a leader in this field or they could be a follower. I think when he learns the reality of the economics involved, his promises to bring back coal jobs will turn into getting those folks into renewable energy jobs instead. And how much will he be influenced by the fossil fuel lobby - whose efforts are only trying to delay the inevitable. I guess I'm skeptical given who he's nominated to his cabinet. It looks like he's got the fox guarding the hen house.

topher | 23 januari 2017

"No Tesla has been sold without the Federal Tax credit."

How do people in Germany who buy a Tesla get the US Federal Tax credit?

Please flag.

Thank you kindly.

dyefrog | 23 januari 2017

Translation
Many Tesla's have been sold without the Federal Tax credit. When the credit goes away then we can see how GM EV's in general do without the tax credit.

Since GM EV's have a basic $15,000 cost disadvantage due to the cost of the battery, US tax credit should be abolished and GM stick to what they do best.

SamO | 23 januari 2017

Tesla already sells better than every other car in its price range.

I feel like it's 2012 all over again.

FUD anyone?

Haggy | 23 januari 2017

"No Tesla has been sold without the Federal Tax credit. "

Even in the US, some people aren't eligible for the tax credit. That would include billionaires who don't pay taxes because they are smart.

SamO | 23 januari 2017

$5,000 credit in California for H2 cars and they sold 270.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/californias-zero-emissions-...

dyefrog | 23 januari 2017

You said "No Tesla has been sold without the Federal Tax credit." There are members of the forum that either chose not to or could not qualify for the tax credit and they still bought a Tesla.
Wrong yet again. The topic may have been the Federal Tax credit but your argument was that without incentives they cannot stand on their own.
"In Australia, the Federal Government offers no direct incentives for electric vehicle ownership and imposes a substantial financial disincentive by way of a Federal Luxury Car Tax that is applied on new vehicles valued over a certain threshold"
"There are at least 583 Model S Teslas on Australian roads, a car that starts at around $123,000 "
Your next rebuttal goes something like this, "only the upper 1% of earners can afford a 6 figure car so sure, they can pass on $7,500 as it's a drop in the bucket for them. Show me someone that makes the median income of $56k/year that would buy a Tesla and forego the tax credit."
Well, you came to the right place. Here before you are a gaggle of Model 3 reservationist, some of whom have admitted that they will buy it with or without the credit. Certainly, all 600,000-1,000,000 of the reservations at first delivery will not get the credit. I suppose you think that once that faucets turned off, they will demand their $1,000 deposit back. We shall see but if history is any indication, you will be wrong yet again.

dyefrog | 23 januari 2017

Plenty of Tesla's have been sold without taking the credit or do you mean it's available to every Tesla. If so, duh.

noleaf4me | 23 januari 2017

Although I would appreciate the tax credit (as I pay too much in taxes already....) I would still buy the M3 without it.

KP in NPT | 24 januari 2017

I will buy without it. It's going to be a great car with a 35K base price. Better than a comparable BMW or Audi.

pete3442 | 24 januari 2017

I'd love the credit, but this car will be a great deal at $35k even without it.

Red Sage ca us | 24 januari 2017

Pidgeon40: Arguing against your own argument doesn't help your case.

bmwgs | 24 januari 2017

I'm hoping for the final $1875 in Q1 2019. Rebate or not,I'm getting my car.

alexanmh | 25 januari 2017

While I have no reason to doubt the logic that it is unlikely that the credit will be changed before its natural death, in the past weeks and months, I think a lot of folks have been surprised by what would previously have been thought unlikely. In the past week, it's like an ideological check-list is being run through so I don't think anything is unlikely. I was also disheartened to hear Elon support the former Exxon CEO for Sec of State. Only reasonable action seems to be to head to the pub.

bmwgs | 25 januari 2017

Elon has energy stock,like many of us. LOL

bmwgs | 25 januari 2017

My energy stock is +35% since King Cheeto was elected and 5% the past 2 days. Feel free to compare that to TSLA over the same period.

SamO | 25 januari 2017

TSLA is an energy stock.
188 on Election Day
254 today

bmwgs | 25 januari 2017

@SamO
No it didn't. It closed at 194 on Election Day.
And the majority in the past 2-3 weeks. I should have said traditional energy stocks.

Darryl | 29 januari 2017

Whether there is a $7500 tax credit will not effect my decision to buy a M3. From what I have read and seen on the news tax credits for EV cars and even solar panels will probably be gone under the Trump presidency. There is enough of a demand for this car the tax credit will have no appreciable effect on the sales. They won't be able to end the credit in 2017 but pretty sure for 2018. Very few M3's will probably be sold in 2017. Therefore 2018 may not benefit at all from the credit.

Darryl | 29 januari 2017

Whether there is a $7500 tax credit will not effect my decision to buy a M3. From what I have read and seen on the news tax credits for EV cars and even solar panels will probably be gone under the Trump presidency. There is enough of a demand for this car the tax credit will have no appreciable effect on the sales. They won't be able to end the credit in 2017 but pretty sure for 2018. Very few M3's will probably be sold in 2017. Therefore may not benefit at all from the credit.

Darryl | 29 januari 2017

Whether there is a $7500 tax credit will not effect my decision to buy a M3. From what I have read and seen on the news tax credits for EV cars and even solar panels will probably be gone under the Trump presidency. There is enough of a demand for this car the tax credit will have no appreciable effect on the sales. They won't be able to end the credit in 2017 but pretty sure for 2018. Very few M3's will probably be sold in 2017. Therefore M3 may not benefit at all from the credit.

EaglesPDX | 29 januari 2017

"Even in the US, some people aren't eligible for the tax credit. That would include billionaires who don't pay taxes because they are smart."

Or inherited it like Trump. Or paid lobbyists to bribe Congressmen to write tax laws that give breaks to the rich while those earning less that $120K pay full fare. However, the rich are able to take advantage of the EV tax credit which is why Musk started Tesla as a luxury car maker.

Of course, really smart billionaires who made something, people like Buffet, Gates, Brin, Soros think paying taxes is important and part of what binds a society together. They all signed petitition to restore the inheritance tax which taxed unearned income.

Getting back to the EV tax credits, with the basic cost differential of $15,000 more for an EV vs. a similar ICE car, we need a raise of the EV tax credit and it must be extended to allow more people to take advantage by allowing them to use it vs. their taxes over 5 years instead of just 1.

topher | 30 januari 2017

Two things to note: The tax credit is part of the tax code, and thus requires legislation to change. Taxes can not be increased retroactively. So, the tax credit is likely safe for 2017.

Thank you kindly.

EaglesPDX | 30 januari 2017

"So, the tax credit is likely safe for 2017"

Congress could end it tomorrow. And a GOP Congress with a Science Committee Chairman who thinks people rode dinosaurs and president whose enviromental motto is 'burn, baby burn" is very likely to do that. GOP is rabidly anti-science with climate scientists first inline for the stake. Gag orders on scientists have already been issued.

One would have be deluding oneself to call this situation "safe" for EV tax credit.

SamO | 30 januari 2017

If "deluded" describes someone who thinks the tax credit is safe this year, how would everyone on this thread categorize the statement that we need to "increase the tax credit" in the face of current political make up in the United States?

Lulz

bmwgs | 30 januari 2017

Congress cannot end it tomorrow.
Flagged bunghole.

Haggy | 30 januari 2017

I agree that an inheritance tax makes sense up to a point, but if I die and my kids inherit my house or car, they shouldn't have to sell it to pay taxes. If they inherit enough money to live on or start a business with, I've already paid taxes when I earned that money. The government shouldn't get to collect tax on something they already collected tax on just because one person gives it to another. My kids shouldn't have to take an extra job solely to pay the government.

"GOP is rabidly anti-science with climate scientists first inline for the stake."

They are also strongly anti-tax, and an effective tax increase would look bad to their fellow conservatives who buy Teslas. They are also supposed to be favoring buying American this year, as well as opposing dependence on foreign oil.

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