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Will a Mobile Connector be included in the base price?

Will a Mobile Connector be included in the base price?

bmwgs | 22 januari 2017
Twiglett | 22 januari 2017

Yes
or for a more full answer - yes of course, how else will you charge. Even a LEAF includes a crappy 110V EVSE

lilbean | 22 januari 2017

That is a very good question. Now that I think about it, not everybody will need one if they will not be charging at home. I try not to assume anything.

bmwgs | 22 januari 2017

@Twiglett
Via Super Charger or Destination Charger. My question stems from seeing them for sale on the Tesla site for $550 IIRC,hence my question. Thanks for your quick reply. Will the J1772 adapter also be included in your opinion?
http://shop.teslamotors.com/products/model-s-mobile-connector-bundle

Red Sage ca us | 22 januari 2017

bmwgs: Sometimes people keep one in the car, but another at a Friend/Family/Vacation home in case of emergency or forgetfulness. Sometimes a public charger is just a port, not a cable. Sometimes you have to charge at an RV park instead of a Destination Charger or Supercharger. Sometimes they leave one at home and keep another in the car. Sometimes people need to replace them out of warranty. These and likely other reasons are why they are available for purchase. It's been like this for years now, no need to jump to the conclusion that the mobile connector appearing in the Tesla Online Store is a 'sign' the item won't be included with the Model ☰.

bmwgs | 22 januari 2017

Thanks for that.
1 more silly question. What if I need an extension cord? I am totally in the dark about what type/rating I would need. TIA

bmwgs | 22 januari 2017

Will the J1772 adapter also be included in your opinion?

Red Sage ca us | 22 januari 2017

Officially? Not recommended.

However... Tesla Model S owners were not satisfied with that answer. They found some awesome solutions on their own. Some by Do-It-Yourself goodness, some by way of Amazon, and quite a few threw this website:

https://www.evseadapters.com/

Red Sage ca us | 22 januari 2017

Through. THROUGH. Yeah. That's the word... It is much more likely that a J1772 adapter will be included than a cigarette lighter.

bmwgs | 22 januari 2017

Your Model S comes with

Public charging station adapter (J1772, 72 amp capable)
Single Charger (10 kW)
Mobile Connector with adapters for a 110 volt outlet and a 240 volt outlet

bmwgs | 22 januari 2017

Thanks for that link (and reply).

KP in NPT | 23 januari 2017

I believe the mobile connector and adapters will come with the car. I suppose they could try to save a few bucks and make us buy the J1772 but I feel like tesla wants to make charging easy so all will likely be included as they are on the S/X.

We have used a heavy duty extension cord when charging on a 120v at a vacation rental and it was no problem. Just out of convenience I wouldn't want to do it for my everyday charging.

bmwgs | 23 januari 2017

I'm looking for the thumbs up emoji.

jordanrichard | 23 januari 2017

Add me to the list of extension cord users. Though I have only done it a couple of times, it is certainly doable. The times I did it, I was plugged into a 120v outlet, but the extension cord I bought is 12 gauge and can handle up to 50 amps. and is 25 ft long.

stevenmaifert | 23 januari 2017

Tesla is one of the few EV manufacturers that provide an L2 charger with the car. My hunch is they will provide one with the M3, but I would not fault them if it doesn't come standard with the 35K base model. As an MS owner, I don't need another one and most other non-Tesla EV owners already have a J1772 L2 charger at home which will work nicely with the Tesla adapter.

Bluesday Afternoon | 23 januari 2017

A number of Tesla owners have an extra cable charging set for permanent storage in their car. For the most part it is like a pacifier. More comfortable when traveling knowing it's always in the back of the car. I left mine home once and I was surprised how often I thought, "I hope I don't need it." Some owners are so inclined (won't say, obsessed) to buy every plug option available and a 25/50 foot heavy duty extension cord. 8-)

Haggy | 23 januari 2017

Tesla doesn't recommend extension cords, which rules out any official sanction of something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002XL2IG8/

However, many Tesla owners have been using them with no problem. The conductors are as thick as your house wiring for the outlet.

There's no guarantee that Tesla will include a UMC but I'd be very surprised if they didn't.

Rocky_H | 23 januari 2017

Oh, right, that would go over PERFECTLY. Could you imagine the assassination that would take place in the media?

You just bought this great electric car. Oh, you want to charge it? Pay up, Sucker!!!

@jordanrichard, Quote: "but the extension cord I bought is 12 gauge and can handle up to 50 amps."

I think you mixed something up. 12 gauge won't support 50 amps. I think you are confusing that if you buy an extension cord for 120V charging, that would be 12A or 16A, and that does need to be 12 gauge. For the 50A outlets, you need one of the big fat cords with about 8 gauge or 6 gauge wires.

bmwgs | 23 januari 2017

@Rocky_H
I just checked my dryer outlet and it is 30amp. What gauge would you suggest for that extension cord for use with the charger?

jordanrichard | 24 januari 2017

Rocky_H, you may be right about the amps. I just checked the cord and it is stamped 12 AGW/300v , but I bought this 2 1/2 yrs ago and would have sworn the packaging said it was good for 50 amps. Obviously I could be wrong on that.

Rocky_H | 24 januari 2017

@bmwgs, Quote: "I just checked my dryer outlet and it is 30amp. What gauge would you suggest for that extension cord for use with the charger?"

Yeah, I knew the 12 gauge for 50A was way off and would melt in a few minutes. What you are looking for is called an "ampacity table". You can just Google for that, and you'll find hundreds of them. It is a standard that is defined by electric code, so it doesn't matter which one you pick. Here is a link for example.
http://www.cerrowire.com/ampacity-charts

The one I linked there has it formatted by wire size first, and then it will show columns for what maximum current is allowed to be carried in that size of wire for various types of wire and temperature conditions.

Electric code has lots of conditions about what temperature rating something has to be if it is this or that plastic jacketing type or inside or outside of conduit, how many wires are in the conduit, or whatever. For example, if you look at 12 gauge, it lists 20 amp across the board. 8 gauge says 40, 50, or 55 for various conditions.

I don't know the details of the code well enough to be sure of what condition an extension cord like we are discussing would be, so if the table has some numbers above and below the number of amps you're trying to handle, I would probably go with oversize a little to be sure.

For your question specifically for a 30A dryer outlet, I see that 10 gauge copper wire is listed as capable of 30A across all of the wire types and temperatures, so that should work fine. I've built one short adapter cable and found that it wasn't too hard, so I would be fine just building my own to be cheaper. You can buy a section of wire from a hardware or electrical supply store. The Tesla charging system only needs two thick current carrying wires for the 240V and a thinner ground. That kind of wire is called 10/2. The 10 refers to the wire gauge, and 2 is the number of big conductors. The ground wire should be in there also, but it's just not included in the name, which is a little confusing. The neutral pin from a dryer outlet just isn't needed, so it can be left not connected at the plug and receptacle ends of your extension cable. That just saves one more thick wire in the cord so it's lighter and more flexible.

Haggy | 24 januari 2017

For a dryer outlet, 10 gauge will do. But there's nothing really to compute. If you go to Amazon and search for NEMA 14-30 extension cord, or 30 am extension cord, you will find ones with the right connectors. If it has the right connectors, it will be rated to support it. I use a Camco 50 amp extension cord and it works fine.

bmwgs | 24 januari 2017

Thanks Haggy & Rocky_H
Haggy,would you consider the link I posted above as overkill, pricewise for $79.00? https://www.evseadapters.com/products/heavy-duty-nema-14-50-extension-co...

SUN 2 DRV | 24 januari 2017

If you build your own extension cord and if you choose to leave out the Neutral wire as has been suggested, that extension cord should work OK with the Tesla UMC, but be careful to NEVER PLUG ANYTHING ELSE INTO THAT EXTENSION CORD!!!!!!! Without the neutral wire there's a vey good chance you will damage, destroy, burn and/or melt those other devices.

Using an extension cord is an OK workaround for the occasional need, but for regular daily charging it would be wise to have a proper circuit run to near by the car. The last thing you want is for something to overheat while you're sleeping.

Rocky_H | 24 januari 2017

@bmwgs, Not overkill at all. I was already aware of that extension, and EVSEAdapters makes really good stuff; I've bought a few other their other adapter cables. It's pretty good that they offer that. The Camco cord that some people recommend from Amazon is a full official 14-50 extension for mobile homes. It has 3 of those big fat wires in it, which makes it very heavy and bulky. I have a 30 foot one.

That one from EVSEAdapters has only the 2 big conductors because it is intended for electric car charging, so they know the neutral isn't needed. That makes the cord noticeably thinner and more flexible and easier to work with. It's a pretty good choice if the price seems worth it to you to not have to build it. You could probably build it for half that price. Also, it is listed with 10 foot and 20 foot lengths, but they are really accommodating if you want to request a longer specific length.

bmwgs | 24 januari 2017

@Rocky_H
Thanks a lot for that. I promise no more extension queries.

Rocky_H | 25 januari 2017

No problems. It feeds my need for talking Tesla stuff.

Haggy | 25 januari 2017

That cord might work, but as was pointed out it would be dangerous (and probably illegal) to use for other purposes. I don't see a clear advantage over the proper extension cord. If you get that one, and use the Tesla 14-50 adapter even though the extension cord is plugged into a 14-30 outlet, you'd have to tell the car to charge at 24 amps. The car would set itself automatically with the proper adapter.

For some strange reason, the 14-30 adapter recently disappeared from Tesla's website. It was gone for a long time, came back a few months ago, and is gone again. Hopefully they will have it back by the time the Model 3 is released.

bmwgs | 25 januari 2017

Thanks Haggy.

Rocky_H | 25 januari 2017

@Haggy, Quote: " I don't see a clear advantage over the proper extension cord."

Do you have one of those Camco 14-50 cords? Is it a 30 or 50 foot? That thing is a beast. It's stiff and hard to work with and weighs a TON.

Quote: "For some strange reason, the 14-30 adapter recently disappeared from Tesla's website."

It's part of the recall of a few types of adapters.

Haggy | 26 januari 2017

Yes I have a Camco. Yes it's heavy but I never move it.

PaceyWhitter | 27 januari 2017

Back to the original question, I don't know if it is a foregone conclusion that a level 2 EVSE will be included with the price of the car. All the other electric cars and plug ins at this price point include an L1 charger but charge more for an L2.

I know that Tesla doesn't default to doing things like others, but it could be a way to reduce cost. Tesla would have to create a new L1 EVSE to go with the 3 because they would have to include some charging ability standard.

jordanrichard | 27 januari 2017

Sorry, but Tesla is not going withhold a $45 retail priced adapter, that will allow you to charge via a 14-50 outlet in your garage or at a public charger, just to keep the price of the M≡ down.

PaceyWhitter | 27 januari 2017

I agree that they would not just withhold the adapter, but they could create a L1 EVSE. This would be cheaper because it would not have to be able to handle the wattage that the UMC can handle.

PhillyGal | 27 januari 2017

Eh, I can't see it being much cheaper to engineer and build a L1 when they can just make the Model 3 compatible with the current UMC technology.

My money is on the UMC being included, along with a few adapters and a handy bag.

bmwgs | 27 januari 2017

You go girl!

Frank99 | 27 januari 2017

I gotta agree with PG. Building an L1 charger is only going to be a couple of bucks cheaper than dropping in the existing L2 charger.

M3forMe | 27 januari 2017

I already have the 240V, 32A, EV Charging Station installed in my garage with the solar panel on the roof so I hope they stay with the L2 charger.

PaceyWhitter | 28 januari 2017

Note, I am sure they will use include an L2 capable charger standard, I am just not sure they will include an L2 capable EVSE as standard. I hope I am wrong, but would not be upset to pay the extra 500 for the UMC.

Red Sage ca us | 28 januari 2017

Also, I'm rather certain that the UMC is not exactly the same as an EVSE. The UMC is pluggable, detachable, portable... I think of an EVSE as being a permanent installation to be used at a single location. It would be especially weird to include the DC Fast Charging hardware in every car (for Supercharger access), but then not include AC Charging components to 'save money'.

Tesla already 'saved money' by 'decoupling' Supercharging from the cost of their cars. As quite a few of you demanded -- in order to 'prevent lines' and 'deal with abusers'. I'm still not convinced that was a 'problem' that needed to be 'fixed' by such measures.

topher | 28 januari 2017

"Tesla already 'saved money' by 'decoupling' Supercharging from the cost of their cars. As quite a few of you demanded -- in order to 'prevent lines' and 'deal with abusers'. I'm still not convinced that was a 'problem' that needed to be 'fixed' by such measures."

What makes you think that was why they did it? They had a rent seeking problem which was also fixed by that solution.

Thank you kindly.

Red Sage ca us | 29 januari 2017

topher: Please take note of the quote marks. It was others among Tesla Enthusiasts and Tesla Naysayers alike that made that suggestion. I only ran with it for the sake of argument. My own postion has been for some time that the cries for Tesla to 'cut back' or 'save money' by making drastic changes to their business model were generally unnecessary. Any ~*ahem*~ 'savings' from such tactics are in my opinion somewhere between minimal and inconsequential. I realize that some stockholders disagree with me, and that they are much happier with the Pay-to-Charge paradigm that is in place now.

In case you missed it, I agree with Elon Musk, that economies of scale will be the primary means by which Tesla will meet internal cost goals for Generation III vehicles. Yes, that applies to the UMC as well. Those were included with 11 years worth of Model S over 4-1/2 years. I'm pretty sure the hardware paid for itself long ago. Making even more of them, to be included with Model ☰ will not be an issue.

topher | 30 januari 2017

" Please take note of the quote marks."

I did. But scare quote marks are not a reliable method of communicating any particular intent, so I missed it. Sorry for the implication that *you* meant the argument.

Thank you kindly.

Rocky_H | 30 januari 2017

@Red Sage, Quote: "Also, I'm rather certain that the UMC is not exactly the same as an EVSE. The UMC is pluggable, detachable, portable... I think of an EVSE as being a permanent installation to be used at a single location."

Both are EVSEs. It's a different part of the description. There are wall-mounted EVSEs and there are portable EVSEs. Clipper Creek sells both varieties.

Red Sage ca us | 30 januari 2017

Rocky_H: OK.

SUN 2 DRV | 31 januari 2017

You guys are only focusing on Tesla's COST difference between an L1 and L2 capable EVSE.

The real issue is what VALUE the user derives from each... I could easily see Tesla providing an L1 EVSE with the car and charging $550 for the L2 EVSE, as that's already the established price for the UMC.

In fact that would level the playing field and motivate users to compare the $550 UMC with the $500 Wall Connector, and make the Wall Connector the typical choice.

Frank99 | 1 februari 2017

An EVSE is simply an outlet - it might be a smart outlet, but all it is, is a source of AC power (DC in the case of a Supercharger, but nobody's gonna put one of those in their garage).. Whether a Model 3 is going to be capable of charging at 48 A from a 240V power source or 12A from a 120V power source, the actual battery charger has to be installed on the vehicle. That means Tesla has a couple of options:
1. Ship the base model with an L1 charger installed, and make an L2 charger an option that includes the UMC.
2. Ship the base model with an L2 charger installed that's only capable of L1 rates, with a software upgrade available to L2 rates.

I suppose there's a third option - ship the base model with NO onboard charger, only a Supercharger port, and sell a Wall Charger that outputs DC. That would make the Model 3 compatible with Superchargers and Destination chargers, but not with e.g. Chargepoint stations. Seems unlikely to me.

djharrington | 1 februari 2017

Frank, while they could pick any of these options, I can't fathom they would actually ship the car without at least a 6kW onboard charger. All other EVs that I'm aware of have at least this. Why would they make a mass-market EV to best existing mass-market EVs in every way, except this one (rather crucial) area? I'd be a monkey's uncle. It depends on how close the final margins are, but I can envision a couple scenarios:

1) If margins are very tight on base, the minimum I envision Tesla shipping with is 6-7kW onboard charger and L1 mobile EVSE (like Leaf, Focus, etc). They would have development costs amortized over the volume, but potentially save a couple hundred bucks (cost) per car.

2) I think what is more likely is the shipment with the same charger as the S and X, with tiered current levels (software upgradable) as it is now. I think it is quite possible it will ship with a L1 EVSE as standard, with the current UMC as an upgrade.

The logistics of creating, testing, and maintaining a new onboard charger likely would eclipse the small cost benefit. You'd also have another clear 'win' compared to most competition. A L1 EVSE is simple to design and certify, and not a component of the car, so less exposure to the company if they had something wrong with the new design (easier to correct if doesn't require physical service to the car).

djharrington | 1 februari 2017

Frank, also, destination chargers do not put out DC, so in your 3rd option (no onboard charger), you'd be limited to charging at SCs and your newly created DC wall charger.

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