The full review could be interesting.
Nice review. As a soon to be ex-BMW driver, it's getting harder and harder to remember why I was so excited by these ICE cats. I love the comments at the end.
"BMW is everything wrong about how car makers handle in-car tech. Tesla is the way it should be."
"Drop dead gorgeous car. Why can't BMW build something that looks like it? Simple, elegant and damn hot attractive lines. Maybe Munich should lure away some of the Tesla designers."
I think BMW owners will be some of the fist non-greens to really "Get" MS.
Or they do what I did (former BMW owner) and just get a TMS :-)
Good luck with your new delivery, btw! :)
I was at my BMW dealer last week for a brake fluid service 'alarm'. Couldn't schedule for two weeks. Guy saw my Tesla hat and asked about it. Anyway, he made the comment " What will you do when they are no longer around and you need parts?". I said "Bashing it won't make it go away. You guys need to focus on catching up."
@hsadler: but that's a valid concern. Look at Fisker. It can happen to small companies. One significant mis-step (or a series of smaller ones) and you'll burn through your capital before you know it. And clearly Tesla is not "too big to fail".
I keep seeing this attitude here in the Forums.
No, Elon Musk is not infallible.
No, there is no insurmountable lead for Tesla in the market. Any of the big four have the money to catch up - they just need to decide that this is the target they want to go for.
No, I don't think that BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, and Porsche will just roll over and declare defeat.
We are very, very early in this fight. And this is a marathon, not a sprint. I thought long and hard about spending a significant amount of money on a car backed by a comparably tiny company. The excitement of driving the TMS won, but I'm not foolish or naive enough to believe the "Tesla has already won" mantra that people keep repeating here.
One bad firmware flaw that they can't fix in a week or two with a significant enough number of Tesla's stranded to catch media attention. One house fire that someone manages to blame on a Tesla car. A couple of crashes allegedly caused by malfunctioning electronics. The list of things that could derail Tesla in no time is long.
Do I think Tesla will fail? No.
Do I think BMW (or anyone else) will have a better car in the near future? No.
Do I think "this one is in the bag, we can sit back and enjoy watching the victory lab"? Heck No.
I am still giving TM 5 years. By then they will have gone out of business or have been bought out by someone. Probably M-B or Toyota.
What I don't understand is why does it have to be a battle of ICE vs. EV? ICE vehicle manufacturers don't have to abandon ICE vehicles in order to sell one or more EVs. It would behoove all traditional auto makers to add at at least one EV to their lineup. That is where the industry is going and by sticking their heads in the sand, these manufacturers will face the same fate as RIM/Blackberry. Now there is a turd nobody could polish, not even a new CEO, because they cannot think outside of their ancient paradigm.
EVs are here to stay and they are going to take over the automotive industry. I think the market is ultimately going to tell them to get on board or get out of the way.
A counter-argument here says Tesla has already won, because of the logical, financial, and technological trap the majors find themselves in:http://seekingalpha.com/article/1463661-on-elon-musk-and-tesla-motors-th...
"ICE vehicle manufacturers don't have to abandon ICE vehicles in order to sell one or more EVs."
But once you drive a good EV, there's no going back to an ICE.
ICE cars really and truly SUCK. You have to look to the very best cars ever made to find one that is fun, and then it's dirty and complicated. And expensive to maintain it's 1500 moving parts.
Tesla has argued that it doesn't want to have dealerships for this is EXACT REASON. Car sellers would undermine much of their traditional business if they have to sell EVs side by side.
@lola Porsche owners too. The Panamera owners, and Cayenne owners next year, will have to ask themselves the hard question, what is it in the Porsche that can justify not to switch.
@cerjor Do you know the reasons why Nokia or Blackberry did not buy Apple, or Blockbuster did not by Netflix when they can? The same reason the big auto companies will not buy Tesla. Market leaders rarely switch to a new technology either by develop it themselves or by purchasing another company. They will not want to give up something that has been going so good either for the share holders or, more importantly, for their (the decision makers) own position in the company. It's usually too late when the truth finally down on them.
"It's usually too late when it dawns on them"
Ain't that the truth. Take all the big 3 automakers, the dealerships, the conservative climate change deniers... It will be too late for them. Mankind and all species in general always have a mix of individuals. Some adapt and change, others take a lot of time.
I recently sold my 2008 M3 and bought a P85+. Tesla is far superior in every way.
+1 @BrianH, @carlk, @SamOSam and @RedShift
Tesla is not going away. The American Auto Industry is back and it is called "Tesla".
"Conservative climate change deniers" don't exist. Those you are so labelling actually deny that Anthropogenic Global Warming is significant. Since CO2 emissions continue to accelerate globally (despite major US drops due to recession and Natural Gas use) and yet temperature is at a ~17-yr statistical standstill (falsifying EVERY Global Circulation Model), the science is heavily on their side.
In all geological or recent history, there is no correlation between CO2 levels and temperature. Other than an 800-yr-lagged CO2 rise after sea surface temps rise, due to outgassing. Even the temperature rise prior to 2000 occurred all in one year or so, 1997-8, in a rebound from Pinatubo plus a super-El Nino.
The EVA's designation of CO2 as a pollutant was a complete kludge, using political IPCC summaries in lieu of the scientific studies they were legally mandated to conduct. They punted, IOW, and got the direction wrong.
corr: the EPA's designation ...
In all geological or recent history, there is no correlation between CO2 levels and temperature.
I don't see your statement reflected in science. What would you say about this: http://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-temperature-correlation.htm
You are not by any chance a follower of Lord Monckton?
Climate denier's choose the 17 year cycle (rather than looking back 50 or 70 years where the observations of warming are indisputable.
What about the thousands of record high temperatures recorded each year vs. a few record lows?
Brian H can't answer anything from skepticalscience because his mind is closed to it.
I think you have lost a lot of credibility with your recent mis-statement on climate science. :-(
In any case, this forum is not for that debate.
I've enjoyed your posts in the past but this one takes the cake.
Consider basic thermodynamics.... You are taking a closed system and releasing (burning) a tremendous amount of stored energy. If you do not think that is going to have unintended negative consequences then there is really little hope for your deductive powers. I do not require other's research to understand that consuming natural resources unnecessarily at an alarming rate should not be done.
Sorry to turn on you like this but leaving statements like the one above unchallenged is unacceptable.
Brian H, the vast majority of the scientific community disagrees with you.
Anyway, back to BMWs - I got a 3 series BMW wagon as my first expensive car purchase because I loved how it drove. I agree with 'the ultimate driving machine' tag line. At the time, it was the best car out there, at any price,
for me and my recreational activities (and family).
I bought the Model S recently to replace it, because it's better.
(I will say there are aspects to the BMW handling that I prefer, mainly because its a smaller car. For example, the size of the steering wheel is a little more to my liking. And I've got to think decades of performance experience count for something. But even so, overall, even in terms of just the handling/performance experience, Tesla still beats the 'ultimate driving experience.' True story: when I drove my BMW after having used the tesla, I thought it was broken - something wrong with the engine, because it seemed so sluggish. Of course there wasn't, I'd just gotten used to the Tesla.)
@stimeygee - funny, I am also exchanging a 3 series BMW wagon for a TMS. Only this was my 9th BMW in the last 25 years :-)
And apparently my last.
I did not buy the TMS for the lower CO2 emissions. That just happens to be a nice side effect. I bought it because it's the most fun to drive car I have ever been in. And it is bigger and more comfortable then my Beamer. And drop dead gorgeous.
Oh yeah, and I guess it's good for the environment, too. It's definitely good for US jobs...
Just want to add one comment to lolachampcar's. It took hundreds of millions of years, long before we are even here, to form those fossil fuels. Now men want to release them all back to the atmosphere in a few hundred years without knowing what long term and short term consequences that will bring. I see a lot of wrong of doing this.
535i for me and 535i wagon for my wife. The sedan is already history and hers is next. Bye bye BMW. It has been good but now it is better.
sia, what debate is appropriate? Do you really think you are the one to make these decisions?
@lolachamper, the earth is not a closed system. @brian, forget it, *their* minds are closed. My $0.02: science is all about making hypothesis, then testing the hypothesis through making a prediction and seeing if it is accurate. All global warming models have been predicting temperature rises in the past decade. The rises have not materialized ( if you use the more accurate satellite temperature data). I'll leave it at that.
@lolachampcar - couldn't agree more. The 5-series is a nice ICE, but it's time to move on to greater things :) I'm finalizing the sale of mine this weekend (had to hash out some details about refunding my unused extended warranty... I didn't even know you could do that!). My fourth, and in all likelihood last BMW. Bye-bye i-Drive, hello massive double i-pad!
Swapping out of a 535xi here. I am thankful to BMW for several goods years and teaching me that driving really can be fun, not just a utilitarian experience. Now I just now about something better.
Today, just for fun, when I left it for some minor work before we part, I left the Tesla key tag on dash. Maybe just my imagination, but I think my mechanic looked a little sullen when I picked it up.
Estimated 4 weeks to delivery, but we try not to talk about it around the beemer.
@stimeygee - my first BMW was also a 3-series, and the rails-like handling is also what hooked me. With anticipation of a growing family and aging parents, I've since bulked up to the 5-series (F10, 2011). As I just posted, it's a nice car, but it's completely lost the road-feel and handling that made BMW's fun to drive (with all the electric boosted steering).
When I did my test drive, I noticed that it handled much better than my 5-series, which was surprising. I think going from the 3-series to the MS is a step down in handling, but it's a step up from the similarly weighted 5.
... and now all this talk about performance and handling make me want to upgrade to the plus again. Dangit.
@mayowt - not to regress, but how did you find the all-wheel drive 535xi versus the standard?
(sorry, poorly worded post - I meant to ask how you liked it)
The big day is almost here. A while ago I did Euro delivery for a 535xi, Hit 130 on tha Autobahn, 4000 mi in Europe then home. It is a great cruising car. 3 trips across the US, 2 NH-FL. A wonderful ride...until I drove MS. I leave in the morning to pick up my new MS in Boston. I did 2 test drives and was blown away by the difference in the 2 cars. While I like the environmental factor, it is the driving factor where the Tesla takes the crown for the UDM.
@NoMoDinos - We live in the Northeast (MA) so the all wheel drive is all I have driven in the BMW ranges. I was impressed everyday, until the day after I test drove the MS.
On a loosely relaated topic, I had to fight back a laugh the other day when one of my friends commented (while driving in my BMW) how he has always loved that car because of the acceleration. I can't wait to start doing the "test drives" with all the family and friends who have been asking.
We have a 2000 M roadster convertible (essentially a Z3 M.) We've kept it as our "fun" summer car. It has low mileage, has been relatively low maintenance, and it's cheap to insure. We're now deep into convertible season, and I haven't driven it once since getting my S85 about 5 weeks ago. I know at some point I'll drive it, but the S is just so much more fun in so many ways.
Tesla is the Ultimate Driving Machine. BMW, well... they used to be.
Picked up my 2001 540i6 in Munich, but it's making way for the P85+.
I sold a BMW 335i when my Model S P85 came in January. I liked the BMW335i a lot. I took European delivery on it and drove it around France and Spain in early 2007. It was a great car --- except it cost me ~$75/wk to fill it.
So I ordered the Model S in 2011 and got an early one. I haven't regretted it one second. Not only is the MS better performing, quieter and more spacious, but it is free to fill every night. I have full solar that covers my total annual electric use, including both my MS and my wife's Rav4 EV.
The BMW 335i was a good car. I've also driven a friend's BMW 1 series EV. It's a nice car but cramped and with limited range.
To put it bluntly, BMWs are rapidly becoming dinosaurs. BMW should buy Tesla. The forward-thinking ICE manufacturers need to think proactively, not reactively. They need to read the handwriting on the wall. Tesla can make a better car for the same price today. It's only going to get worse for ICE. Battery technology is only getting better. Solar is only getting cheaper. In contrast oil is only getting harder to find and more expensive to extract.
And even if you don't buy the climate change argument, do we want to increasingly buy our energy from petro-dictatorships and wackos, and export our dollars?
Say it with me:
Bimmer = BMW automobile
Beemer = BMW motorcycle
Surprised to see people that have driven BMWs for years don't know this.
At any rate, BMW is played out, Tesla will dominate.
Just when I was starting to like you. Like someone already pointed out: closed system, buddy. Earth is a closed system. Whatever us apes are doing isn't coming without side effects. Also, like another poster pointed out, there is a consensus that humans are causing climate change. Anyway, I'd like to not stress and argue this point here with you or anyone else. It's not something that should be debated, in my opinion.
The reality of FREE electricity at Tesla Superchargers combined with a lower-priced Gen3 Tesla by 2017 will re-write the ICE automobile manufacturers economic reality in the not too distant future. 'Nuff said. The old/existing ICE game's gonna be over before ya know it !
Did any of us expect Amazon to be where it is now way back in 2000 ? See what it did to the publisihing industry!
Did anyone imagine that something like the iPod and iTunes could disrupt the entire and well established music industry !
Did anyone imagine what the iPhone would do to the mobile phones and create a whole new segment for smart phones killing blackberry !
Did anyone imagine that the tablets would kill the PC especially Gates who then suggested that Jobs should add a digital pen to make the iPad succeed !
And it goes on - when there is true coming together of the right innovation / technology at the right time by the right people to fill a critical market need , transformative disruption is bound to happen as in all these cases above and jn many ways quite unlike what we imagine !
So quite contrary to many views expressed above it is quite likely that in as short a time as a decade the ICE is quite dead as what Tesla is doing is bringing about a much needed transformative disruption to the industry and I doubt if any of the so called Auto giants will be able to do anything but to follow suit and compete on Tesla's terms not vice versa ! Further with the kind of market vindication to the excellent product and even better executed roll out that Tesla has had there is no reason why they need to worry about a buy out unless they choose it ! The fact that Ford just dropped it's EVprices and that all majors including Audi, Lexus, Infiniti etc have dropped their half baked EV plans further prove the point !
Since BMW was mentioned a lot: there was an article in a german magazine the other day estimating BMW having invested EUR 2-3B(!) just for their i3/i8 series, in spite of a lot of pressure from parts of the ICE-centric higher management.
The mindset is changing very slowly towards EVs over here (only enthusiasts seem to know about Tesla). Hopefully the tides will turn faster once the MS is being delivered here in Germany and all the car magazines (print/TV) can cover it for a wider audience. Be amazed! :)
While I agree with your post, I think your time horizon of 10 years is too optimistic. All your examples are of industries/products with dramatically lower costs than cars. These products are turned over in months-years whereas cars are turned over in years to decades. Indeed, Elon has stated that it will be ~17 years before the majority of cars produced annually will be electric and longer to get to >50% of cars on the road as electric.
The EV revolution is unstoppable, but it will be slower than other transformative technology that is much lower in per unit cost.
Hornet's nest of Believers! Heh.
The CO2 follows, on every time scale, ocean surface temperature.
Dr. Hal Lewis, senior APS member, resignation letter:
"... the global warming scam, with the (literally) trillions of dollars driving it, ... has corrupted so many scientists, and has carried APS before it like a rogue wave. It is the greatest and most successful pseudoscientific fraud I have seen in my long life as a physicist."
If natural variation ever dominates, then it always dominates.
My thoughts are expressed in larger part in the General Forum "We're screwed" thread. Fear cooling -- it kills. Warmth has been hugely benign ever since the Holocene began. Pray it continues; the odds aren't good.
Though sudden changes in market preference can occur, the inertia behind the current setup is immense. With markets, weird things can developo though. A Tesla takeover of a major, based on skyhigh market cap? Could happen.
typo: can develop ...
What did Dr. Lewis, a nuclear scientist, contribute to the field of climate change? Any papers? One of ~50K members of the APS is not really statistically relevant.
For some reading: http://www.skepticalscience.com/gleckler-human-fingerprint-ocean-warming...
MS parked my Bimmer...
Zero parked my Beemer. Know anyone interested in a slightly used S1000RR?