Conspiracy Theory? by Leilani Münter, Race car driver, environmental activist.

Conspiracy Theory? by Leilani Münter, Race car driver, environmental activist.

jbunn | 17 december 2013


There were only a small handful of Tesla model S cars on the road until just a bit over a year ago.

I drove gas powered cars for just under 40 years, and my Tesla only for 10 months.

I now realize the error of my ways, but I didn't have a choice a year ago. None of us did.

RedShift | 17 december 2013


You could have just stayed at home where you were born.

jbunn | 17 december 2013

It was very much a car culture back then in the middle of the muscle car era, big V8s, and 50 cent gasoline. But I am trying to atone.

Brian H | 17 december 2013

It was warmer when he died (the whole pass was open), and the warm periods have been progressively cooler since the start of the Holocene. The end of this one is overdue, and will the next will likely be cooler yet. Unfortunately.
CO2 is irrelevant. AGW fails every predictive and analytic test.

jbunn | 17 december 2013


By any chance did you notice that the guy is not a client scientist? He has a MS in Mechanical engineering. And that his references are primarily from other blog sites, not research papers? And his research I assume is not peer reviewed?

I don't consider Pangburn to be a credible source, nor do most people.

I would consider a consensus of climate researchers working in the field to be credible.

bb0tin | 17 december 2013

A quote for you from this link

"After some time interacting with the regular denier posters, it became clear that they could not or would not improve their demeanor. These problematic users were not the common “internet trolls” looking to have a little fun upsetting people. Such users are practically the norm on reddit. These people were true believers, blind to the fact that their arguments were hopelessly flawed, the result of cherry-picked data and conspiratorial thinking. They had no idea that the smart-sounding talking points from their preferred climate blog were, even to a casual climate science observer, plainly wrong. They were completely enamored by the emotionally charged and rhetoric-based arguments of pundits on talk radio and Fox News."

bb0tin | 17 december 2013

Tiresome I know. I would sure like to stop doing this but BrianH is like the Energizer Bunny. Google volkersize buffoon.

bb0tin | 17 december 2013

We kiwis (mostly) are pretty friendly to strangers. I have noticed when I am overseas that some cultures are much more reticent in public. It's like they think I am going to mug them when I say hello in the park. LOL.

AmpedRealtor | 18 december 2013

@ PXChanel,

Perhaps you should do some research before bashing people. Spend five minutes on Google, you might learn something.

@ Brian H,

You are basing your views about global warming around a blog post from someone who is a mechanical engineer and not even a climatologist? This is a perfect example of people believing in any garbage they read on the internet. A blog post is not journalism and it is definitely not science. If you wouldn't allow a massage therapist to perform your heart bypass surgery, why on earth would you take advice about climate change from a blog that's not even from a real climate scientist?

You probably should stop quoting your sources because you are quickly losing credibility in this argument. What's next, a quote from Fox News? LOL!

Captain_Zap | 18 december 2013


I hear what you are saying. If I make a friendly comment to a person in public while waiting in a line, people will look at me as if they think I am mentally disturbed. It is strange and it is sad and it makes it hard to have communities.

Where I grew up, you had to be nice and polite to everyone. That was because, even if you didn't know them personally, you knew that they were either your grandmother's friend's cousin, or they were your Uncle's boss's kid. So, ultimately, no one was a stranger and you lived like that.

The internet and cellular technology does contribute by depersonaling things and it can interfere with developing human bonds. It also promotes deviance due to lack of personal accountiablity created by distances and anomymity. That's my theory.

Pungoteague_Dave | 18 december 2013

I have no view one way or the other, but do have personal experience with both climatologists and Al Gore. They have vested financial and professional interests, and cannot claim scientific objectivity either. They ALSO cherry pick data to their advantage. To a carpenter everything looks like a nail. When most scientists hear hooves, they think "horses." I prefer scientists who think "zebras" first and then objectively disprove the theory. The problem is that climate science has become more religion than science. Group think does not make them right. Consensus science also said the world was flat, that gravity theories were witchcraft, and that bloodletting was good medicine. Orthodoxy resists independent thought, and the easy way to impeach anyone questioning the orthodoxy is to impeach their background or demean them with names like "denier," implying stupidity and ignorance. The following from wiki on bloodletting's demise is instructive in the current warmist context:

"William Harvey disproved the basis of the practice in 1628, and the introduction of scientific medicine, la méthode numérique, allowed Pierre Charles Alexandre Louis to demonstrate that phlebotomy was entirely ineffective in the treatment of pneumonia and various fevers in the 1830s. Nevertheless, in 1840, a lecturer at the Royal College of Physicians would still state that "blood-letting is a remedy which, when judiciously employed, it is hardly possible to estimate too highly"... Some physicians resisted Louis' work because they "were not prepared to discard therapies 'validated by both tradition and their own experience on account of somebody else's numbers'."

jkn | 18 december 2013

Condition of Ötzi can be this good only if he was killed on ice or snow and have been inside snow or ice over 5000 years. Body seems to be dried. Perhaps this happens inside ice. It could also me that body was above snow or ice short periods.
Even with this drying, if temperature had been above freezing, body would have decayed. If it had been long time above snow, erosion would have destroyed it, if nothing else. Wikipedia article lists contents of his last two meals, his tattoos, diseases, ...

There are animals on alps, even today. Only years exposed to crows, vultures, foxes, bears,... Only some bones would be left.

jkn | 18 december 2013


A racing car burns fuel perhaps 20 times faster than ordinary car. In racing event there are much more than 20 spectators/racing car. So energy consumption of sport event depends mainly how spectators arrive.

Because of her background Leilani would be a very good spokesperson for Tesla.

bb0tin | 18 december 2013

Your post did not have a single link to any evidence for your opinions. All of your post was rhetoric.

So let me just pick one of your statements and ask that you provide evidence for it:
"They ALSO cherry pick data to their advantage"
I will research the evidence that you provide to see if it has any veracity.

As to your statement:
"I have no view one way or the other".
This is pretty hard to believe given that the entire post was from one side.

But on a more general bent:
Do you want cleaner air?
Do you want a cleaner environment?
Do you want to reduce conflict over oil resources?
Do you want to economically produce your own power for your home and vehicle?

If the answer to the above are true, then why on earth is it more important to you to espouse your views, which could only impede the above from happening?

I am totally for debate of any topic on it's merits, but it must be on it's merits. The merit of an opinion is not based on the fact that it is held. It is based on the eveidence and reasoning behind it.

Vevans2 | 18 december 2013

I have a couple of questions?

Does everyone really believe Tesla a startup is the only company who is able to make a great electric vehicle?

Why didn't Ford, GM and all the other ICE companies create a vehicle like the Tesla Model S?

I don't buy that Ford or GM is unable to create a large electric vehicle. These companies have exhaustive amounts of money they spend in advertising and research. I also don't buy the market is not there for electric vehicles see Tesla sales.

Tesla has created a great sedan but my final question is why didn't Ford or GM? I think the answer is obvious.

jkn | 18 december 2013

They didn't want to.

Tesla is using cells developed for laptops. They have some relating patents. This also prevents Tesla to increase their production any faster. Perhaps others waited for new battery technology.

Pungoteague_Dave | 18 december 2013

Um,@bb0tin, I have 84 solar panels, own 6 EV's currently, have ten geothermal wells, and every bulb in my homes and businesses are LED. I sell electricity to the grid every month. My wife's business, oyster aquaculture, which will ship about 7 million oysters this year, is a giant carbon sink. Our major giving effort is through the Chesapeake Bay Foundation. We are as close as anyone you know to being carbon neutral in how we live day to day.

I say yes to all four of your questions and believe we do more than anyone we have met to achieve those goals. That does NOT mean that I am willing to be a sheep and just accept the concept that we need to turn society upside down to avoid warming. Too often we ignore the potential benefits therein, if it continues. The data used by both sides is intentionally distorted to make points. I therefore provide no links, just rely on my own observations, having travelled and invested in every part of the world and having read every available argument on both sides of the table, including wading through the all of the warmist reports and scientific studies that have been made public. I truly don't have an opinion, but do remain unconvinced. For some that is an opinion. I think it is healthy agnosticism.

Our tidewater farm in Virginia has its highest elevation at 8 fee above sea level. I am not planning to move or elevate our docks anytime soon just because of speculative science that has often proved very wrong. When I was I high school scientific consensus was that an ice age might be on the way, including cover stories in Time Magazine and Newsweek with scientific studies predicting a coming ice age.

jbunn | 18 december 2013


On the West Coast our oyster farmers here are very concerned about ocean acidification. (Background for those not familiar - CO2 dissolves in seawater, producing H2CO3 which lowers pH. This kills oyster spawn by dissolving calcium carbonate when they are beginning to form their first shell).

Also note that the Pacific Northwest has VERY little carbon, as most of our power comes from hydro, not fossil fuel. Acidification is apparently global in nature. The guys up here in Puget Sound are already taking action.

As an oysterman, what's your view on acidification?

jkn | 18 december 2013
The most widely accepted standard is the American Society of Heating, Refrigeration, and Air Conditioning Engineers (ASHRAE) Standard 62.

ASHRAE has recommended indoor CO2 concentrations be maintained at—or below—1,000 ppm in schools and 800 ppm in offices.
Annual mean growth rate of CO2 at Mauna Loa 2000 - 2010: 2 ppm/year

Very soon we'll get to 400 ppm. If growth rate remains at 2 ppm/year, we'll get to 800 ppm in 200 years. Oil runs out, but we have enough coal and methane to get there.

After 200 years are sold to rich people, so that they can breathe clean air. Is this a world you want to leave for your descendants?

Mel. | 18 december 2013

Bb0tin, why so nasty and condescending?

bb0tin | 18 december 2013

I did not believe my post was nasty. I agree it was to an extent condescending. It was certainly straight to the point. I asked Pungoteague_Dave for some evidence for just one of his statements and offered to research it. Rather than provide a single example, Pungoteague_Dave followed up with yet more opinion, such as " intentionally distorted to make points", again without any evidence to support it.

I 'accept' the evidence for Climate Change, and will provide links to the data and research to support it. I find that Climate Change denialists do not. I 'believe' that, due to the lack of meaningful progress on mitigating Climate Change, we are condemning billions of people, for generations, to hardship, struggle and death. Do I think that is is okay for individuals to promulgate baseless opinions which cause this lack of action to happen? No I do not. Do I think that those people get offended by me taking them to task? Yes I do.

The solution to this is either:
1) The denialists debate on the facts rather than opinion
2) I do not aggressively take them to task

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"

cloroxbb | 18 december 2013

Haha when DOESNT a thread get hijacked into a global warming argue fest? :)

Lessmog | 18 december 2013

That might happen when people do not digress.
IOW, not frequently.
Although in this case the digression was perhaps not entirely unexpected.
(Saving up for a few kilowatts of solar and a Tesla) :-)

Mel. | 18 december 2013

Bb0tin, I really enjoy your arguments. You just get very upset . We are all on the same side.

RedShift | 18 december 2013

Hey, P_D:

Do religious leaders have an agenda when they say 'thou shall believe in such and such'? Of course they do. Yet, religions are followed by billions of 'sheep'. At least, GW is a theory promoted by known scientists, not charlatans.

That scandalous enough for you Brian?

Brian H | 18 december 2013

The spawn used in that test were imported from warm Japanese waters and unable to survive the cold NW. Typical.

jbunn | 19 december 2013

The spawn in that study were Crassostrea gigas - the Pacific Oyster which were originally imported from Asia but are the prevalent cultivated oyster on the west coast.

Oyster hatcheries have run in native Pacific Northwest waters since the 70's. Taylor Shellfish is a good example of a local Puget sound based oyster produce as well as an oyster hatchery. Great place. Tasty oysters. It's incorrect to state that the oyster span was imported.

The study was done at a commercial oyster hatchery in Netarts bay Oregon, and the hatchery and scientists were able to rule out other causes. The viability of young oysters negatively correlates with elevated carbon dioxide levels. This is a direct link to the actual study.

Here is an easier to read article describing the same pH related oyster collapse at other West Coast oyster hatcheries.

Your statement is not supported by the research and the experience at multiple hatcheries over many years.

jbunn | 19 december 2013

I must say, I am truly impressed by the seriousness of this forum. My expectation was that this should have degraded into an argument over Team Lelani vs. Team Danica long before now.

Pungoteague_Dave | 19 december 2013

I had a big-ass response teed up, but it got zapped somehow. Short version, We are worried about acidification, which is measurable. Source is not clear. I don't fall into the dueling links club, sorry. I had a whole outline of my last meeting with Al Gore in 2007 in London at his office, suffice it to say he and his staff admitted in so many words that his job is create demand for green investing. If we follow the money, there is no such thing in the climate "science" world as independence. What we see is answers looking for proof, with the scientific method be damned.

Having read everything put out by the IPCC and others on the warmist side, I see flaws and hypothetical thinking turned into unsupportable facts. I see the same and worse from the denier side. The biggest problem is one of perspective. Almost all data in these studies starts in the 1800's because that when we started trapping temperatures scientifically. When we look back further there is a ton of evidence of warmer periods and periods with far higher atmospheric carbon load than we see today. I am out of this discussion from here.

bb0tin | 19 december 2013

You said:
"I had a whole outline of my last meeting with Al Gore in 2007 in London at his office, suffice it to say he and his staff admitted in so many words that his job is create demand for green investing. If we follow the money, there is no such thing in the climate "science" world as independence. What we see is answers looking for proof, with the scientific method be damned."

You say "We are worried about acidification, which is measurable. Source is not clear." Really? Acidification is happening all over the world. Why is the simple cause of increased CO2 not good enough for you? It is simple physics and chemistry but you refuse to accept it.

Once again, your post is all opinion and rhetoric with absolutely no data to back it up. "scientific method be damned" you say. Where is your scientific method?

AmpedRealtor | 20 december 2013

@ Pungoteague_Dave,

"When we look back further there is a ton of evidence of warmer periods and periods with far higher atmospheric carbon load than we see today."

Perhaps, but those warmer periods with higher carbon load occurred naturally and on their own timeframes. Just because our planet has gone through warmer periods doesn't somehow dismiss our most current warming period as "ok". Our recent warming trend (aka hockey stick graph) is man made and that is the difference. When a planet does something on its own, there is a balance to things. But when we humans start to mess with things, we screw up other things.

Past incidences of high carbon load or warming were also accompanied by greater volcanic activity spewing out greenhouse gasses. Today the thousands of refineries and plants, plus commercial activity and automobiles, methane from factory farming, etc. all take the place of what used to happen naturally and over millennia. Back when we had higher carbon load and warmer temps, we also had much higher oxygen and nitrogen levels in the atmosphere. We don't have that balance today, instead we are just spiking our CO2 and methane levels.

On an even more fundamental level, we are releasing CO2, methane and other gasses that nature sequestered. Nature traps CO2 gas in plants and animals, underground, captures it in minerals and water, etc. Methane is trapped inside of plant material, under the ocean floor, etc. As we release these compounds into the air - which is just another type of ocean - where do people think these gasses are going to go?

The earth has taken hundreds of millions of years to sequester enough CO2 and other greenhouse gasses to give us the climate that we have today. Nature is doing nothing extraordinary to release those gasses, but man is.

Pungoteague_Dave | 20 december 2013

The hockey stick graph has been completely debunked by very reputable scientists. Even Al has stopped using it.

jbunn | 20 december 2013

I can't find the complete debunking by very reputable scientists, but I did find this quote from Al Gore on his blog within the last 5 years.

Hockey Stick September 16, 2008 : 8:29 PM

Contrary to what the skeptics and deniers will tell you, the Hockey Stick graph, similar to the one I featured in "An Inconvenient Truth", is proving to be completely true.

Pungoteague_Dave | 20 december 2013

Al has removed it from his standard meriting pitch slide show.

Brian H | 20 december 2013

Install the Lazarus add-on and your entries are saved as you type. You can set the save duration to suit, and search the d/b. So every entry is available for x weeks.

jbunn | 20 december 2013

Mueller is a pretty serious source. I thought I recalled his name from work with George Smoot on cosmic anisotropy.

I read the article in the link. Mueller has questions about the variability of the data, but the excerpts that the op-ed writer quotes are more questions and musings from Mueller than downright condemnation of the hockey stick.

I don't know if an op-ed is a "complete debunking", but I do take Mueller's opinion as important.

bb0tin | 21 december 2013

Here is a link to the actual summary of the temperature data study (BEST) carried out by Richard Muller et al published July 2012:

The opening quote is:
"According to a new Berkeley Earth study released today, the average temperature of the Earth’s land has risen by 1.5 °C over the past 250 years. The good match between the new temperature record and historical carbon dioxide records suggests that the most straightforward explanation for this warming is human greenhouse gas emissions."

As for the "hockey stick" graph itself:

A quote from the above link:
"More than two dozen reconstructions, using various statistical methods and combinations of proxy records, have supported the broad consensus shown in the original 1998 hockey-stick graph, with variations in how flat the pre-20th century "shaft" appears.[12][13] The 2007 IPCC Fourth Assessment Report cited 14 reconstructions, 10 of which covered 1,000 years or longer, to support its strengthened conclusion that it was likely that Northern Hemisphere temperatures during the 20th century were the highest in at least the past 1,300 years.[14] Ten or more subsequent reconstructions, including Mann et al. 2008, have supported these general conclusions."

Let's be clear - there are thousands of peer reviewed studies related to changes caused by Climate Change, but not limited to, temperature, ice melt, sea-level rise, ocean acidification, droughts, wildfires, deluges, plant seasons, plant and animal habitat. There are thousands of papers related to the possible causes of Climate Change, such as, but not limited to, solar flux, volcanism, clouds, CO2, natural variability, cosmic rays.
To deny anthropomorphic Climate Change is to deny all the science. It is to believe that thousands of scientists, from all over the world, from all political factions, over decades, are all involved in a grand conspiracy, and successfully so.
To delay action to mitigate Climate Change is to delay a cleaner, safer, sustainable future.
The irony is that, as a result of this delay, the financial cost and government intervention required will be far higher than if action is taken now.
As indiviiduals we need to ask ourselves the question: What will your answer be in 20 years if asked "What did you do to try and prevent the climate disasters we are now suffering?"
It cannot be that you were not aware of the science.

AmpedRealtor | 21 december 2013

@ Pungoteague_Dave,

Nothing in the op-ed you linked debunks anything. It simply quotes hypothetical musings, no real facts or data. An op-ed is not a debunking, and writers of op-ed pieces are not usually qualified to draw any conclusions from climate data. The fact that our latest warming trend is man made is what is alarming. Prior events were natural, this one is not. And it's happening very quickly.

RedShift | 21 december 2013

Lets make it simple. If you cannot be in a closed garage with your gas car running, why is it OK to be in a closed system like earth with millions of cars running? Are there new sources to sink this carbon and other harmful chemical output?

NKYTA | 21 december 2013

Wow, @Redshift, that was what @AR said to BrianH, but much more succinct. +1

Pungoteague_Dave | 21 december 2013

@redshift. Really? I can't be in my garage with a bonfire, or argon gas, or pure nitrogen, or even water flooded to the roof. Yes the world is a closed system. Excellent point. The world definitely has a fixed amount of carbon. How it gets shifted around is the question. Remember how the world was never going to recover from the BP spill? Nature took care of it in a matter of months though unexpected and massive bacterial action, with no human intervention. Scientists were shocked and flummoxed, as it fit no model. They were predicting beach wastelands and lost shellfish stocks for decades, perhaps millennia. Our biggest competition in the oyster business remains cheap product from the gulf, which set record harvests over the past two years. The earth is remarkably self-patching.

Thankfully global warming has made places like Kansas possible, created the Chesapeake Bay, the country's largest estuary, etc. The only constant is change. I embrace it, especially sitting here in 73 degrees on the first day of winter. So you greenies never have a fire in your fireplace, use a gas range, or use a grill? I am fairly certain that my family is one of only a few in the US with a truly negative carbon footprint, by many tons per year. I believe in minimizing our impact on the world, and have put a lot of money into that commitment, but it doesn't mean I have to drink apocalyptic koolaid like so many do. For some, buying a Tesla is a means to assuage resource usage guilt. For me it is a damn fine car.

Brian H | 21 december 2013

Stupid. The planet needs and uses carbon dioxide. CO is a short-lived poison, irrelevant.

Here're a few excerpts from a prominent scientist's responses to some UK Parliament challenges:

1. Late September the IPCC published Climate Change 2013: the Physical Science Basis, a document of over 2200 pages, which will be read by very few people, and an accompanying "Summary for Policymakers" (SPM) of 36 pages, which will be the document that is generally read by politicians, officials and the media. In my opinion the main point to appreciate is that as it has the purpose of addressing policy makers, the SPM can not be a scientific document. When writing the SPM, the authors are facing a dilemma: either they speak as scientists and must therefore recognize that there are too many unknowns to make reliable predictions, both in the mechanisms at play and in the available data; or they try to convey what they "consensually" think is the right message but at the price of giving up scientific rigour. They deliberately chose the latter option. The result is they have distorted the scientific message into an alarmist message asking for urgent reaction, which is quite contrary to what the scientific message conveys.
In most physical problems, however, and particularly in climate science, statistical uncertainties are largely irrelevant. What matters are systematic uncertainties that result in a large part from our lack of understanding of the mechanisms at play, and also in part from the lack of relevant data. In quantifying such ignorance the way they have done it, the SPM authors have lost credibility with many scientists. Such behaviour is unacceptable. A proper scientific summary must rephrase the main SPM conclusions in a way that describes properly the factors that contribute to the uncertainties attached to such conclusions.
'How effective is AR5 and the summary for polfcymakers in conveying what is meant by uncertainty in scientific terms? Would a focus on risk rather than uncertainty be useful?'
The way the SPM deals with uncertainties (e.g. claiming something is 95% certain) is shocking and deeply unscientific. For a scientist, this simple fact is sufficient to throw discredit on the whole summary. The SPM gives the wrong idea that one can quantify precisely our confidence in the model predictions, which is far from being the case.
'Does the AR5 address the reliability of climate models?'
Even if it does it in several places in the report, it lacks too often the critical attitude that should be expected, sometimes eluding rather than facing embarrassing questions. The SPM does not address in a proper way the issue of the reliability of the climate models.
'Has AR5 sufficiently explained the reasons behind the widely reported hiatus in the global surface temperature record?'
Of course not, how could it? One can only suggest hypotheses. The coming decade should help us with understanding much better what is most relevant.
'Do the AR5 Physical Science Basis report's conclusions strengthen or weaken the economic case for action to prevent dangerous climate change?'
In the short term, it weakens the case for taking urgent action. In the long term, it supports the importance of taking global warming as an important factor in decisions affecting the. future of the planet, together with energy policy, management of natural resources, social, financial, economic and geopolitical considerations.
'Is the IPCC process an effective mechanism for assessing scientific knowledge? Or has it focussed on providing a justification for political commitment?'
The mission given to the IPCC of addressing policy makers rather than scientists has contributed to the deterioration of the quality of the climate debate up to a point that may well now be no return. One may claim today that it was predictable, but I do not think that one could have predicted that it could reach such a depressingly aggressive and irrational level.

Like the Believer blather in this thread.

RedShift | 21 december 2013


Way to not answer my question.

Where are these new carbon sinks in nature? Don't be so sure about nature cleaning up after all our messes.
If nature would clean up all our messes there would be no pollution.

Extrapolating your sea faring wisdom to global warming without offering any proof is not a convincing argument.

RedShift | 21 december 2013


"Stupid. The planet needs and uses carbon dioxide. CO is a short-lived poison. irrelevant"

Alcohol is a short lived poison, let us all start drinking 3 cases of wine everyday.

RedShift | 21 december 2013

Also, Brian: I believe you should get refund on all the courses you may have taken and all the books you have read.

bb0tin | 21 december 2013

Please post some facts and scientifc studies to support your viewpoint if you must post. Your level of argument consists of a gish gallup followed by you immediately ignoring any factual counter argument.

Google volkerize buffoon

Mel. | 22 december 2013

Why would anyone be against wine ?

RedShift | 22 december 2013


I love wine and enjoy different varieties here in California. Even use it in my reduction on the gourmet pizza I make at home.

I love to drink, but not be drunk all the time.

AmpedRealtor | 22 december 2013

@ Brian H,

The article you quoted quotes a scientist who believes this:

"I am prepared to adhere to some precaution principle and accept that we should be careful with injecting CO2 in the atmosphere at the scale of what it already contains when we do not know enough to be sure that it is reasonably harmless; I understand that answering many of the open questions in climate science may require more time than we can afford to wait."

So you are actually disproving your own point that you are trying to make.