Delayed charge times after software update?

Delayed charge times after software update?

Our Model S update happened a couple days ago. I've been wanting to set the charge time but didn't see that in this update. Am I missing it or did that feature not make it into the latest update?

Our electric rate is $0.03 after midnight, so I'm motivated to take advantage of the cheaper juice but don't want to stay up late to plug in the charger!

Brian H | 3 oktober 2012

In the meantime, install a switch in your bedroom? >;)

dborn | 3 oktober 2012

Simpler still - plug-in timer.

Teoatawki | 3 oktober 2012

How about:

Plug it in when going to bed with the charging rate set as low as possible and still be charged and ready by morning. That way most of the charging can happen after midnight. Still not as good as setting a start time, I know.

Adam | 4 oktober 2012

Great (funny) suggestions. I'm just so used to my Roaster coming on at 2am to charge, it seems weird that this isn't supported in the Model S.

A 220v timer switch seems a little scary. Maybe I'll try lowering the amps, that might be better on the batteries too...

mrspaghetti | 4 oktober 2012

The timer switch is actually a good idea, except that I couldn't find any 240v plug-in timers online that also support 40+ amps. at least, not for under $600 or so.

If I didn't think this issue would be resolved in another software update soon, I'd think about soldering up a timer socket myself. I'm sure the parts could be had for < $100.

ReeceWeb | 4 oktober 2012

I was going to just leave the breaker off, hook up the charging cable when I get home, then turn the breaker on near midnight.

However, the charging port detects the connector in proximity and pops open, but will it do that if the charger isn't powered? Can the charging port be opened manually?

mrspaghetti | 4 oktober 2012

This thread makes me wonder:

How many people do they have working on software updates? And what is their priority list? Because I would have thought adding charge scheduling would be way ahead of adding "creep". The former is something most owners will want, while the latter seems completely stupid for an electric car.

BYT | 4 oktober 2012

@tesla.mrspaghet, I agree that the need for delayed charging is important, but when you are filling a Model S battery from nothing to 300 miles at the cost of about $12 in electricity, it's not a HUGE deal IMHO.

Now "creep" is a MUST for anyone who drives in heavy traffic ALL THE TIME. Life would just suck without it. I have to humbly disagree with you on this point.

Vawlkus | 4 oktober 2012

Besides, it's easier to add new code than it is to debug code that isn't quite doing what it should.

mrspaghetti | 4 oktober 2012

@BYT: Really? Have you driven the Model S a lot in heavy traffic?

I have no experience other than with a standard ICE vehicle, but I'm thinking it would be a difference between operating the brake pedal most of the time (ICE), or operating the accelerator most of the time (Model S).

It seems like it should be almost the opposite between the two: for an ICE, you lift up on the brake to crawl along and step on it again to stop. With the S, you step on the gas accelerator a little bit to creep and lift up on it to stop.

Am I wrong? What's the advantage of "creep"?

sbern18 | 4 oktober 2012

Creep can allow both feet off the pedals, a definite bonus for those who like that.

mrspaghetti | 4 oktober 2012


With regen braking, you can also have both feet off the pedals when stopped, no? So again, it's the difference between having your feet off the pedals while moving or off the pedals when sitting still.

I still don't see it.

Alex K | 4 oktober 2012

@tesla.mrspaghet... | OCTOBER 4, 2012: With regen braking, you can also have both feet off the pedals when stopped, no? So again, it's the difference between having your feet off the pedals while moving or off the pedals when sitting still.
I still don't see it.

Creep is most helpful on a slight incline when using a single foot to operate the pedals. After you come to a complete stop on slight incline (by depressing the the brake pedal), you can let go of the brake and the car will start to move forward. With no creep, the car moves backwards. The Model S will have both creep and hill hold software installed in the future which will make it able to stop without rolling backwards on more inclined hills. Hopefully, each feature can be turned on/off separately.

Sudre_ | 4 oktober 2012
BYT | 4 oktober 2012

@@tesla.mrspaghet., When I am at a stop sign (also a lot of those in my travels) and there is a 2 block line of cars, I don't hit the accelerator or the brake. I let the car creep the WHOLE 2 blocks. No foot on either pedal. Sometimes when traffic is consistent on the highway, I use creep the same way.

mrspaghetti | 4 oktober 2012

@BYT: Ok, I guess I don't have the relevant experience in heavy traffic to see the value. I pity you :)

BYT | 4 oktober 2012

@tesla.mrspaghet, One of the many MANY reasons I am buying a Model S, to make my drive more tolerable... :)

Sudre_ | 4 oktober 2012

I have been in Florida traffic once on the highway gulf side and was in traffic like BYT describes... really sucked.... for a few miles. I cut over to a toll road which was empty. (too lazy to go to google and look them up.)

mrspaghetti | 4 oktober 2012

@Sudre_: Nice. I restricted my search to plug-in timers.

I guess you'd install this one between your panel and the 14-50 outlet?

Sudre_ | 4 oktober 2012

If you have the plug installed it would be so easy.

There are several ways to do it. The easiest.
Buy that timer.
Buy a heavy duty 14-50 extension cord.
Buy two cord grips. (simple wire connectors are cheaper at Home Depot)

Cut the extension cord in half (probably better to just use 3' ends)
Wire them into the timer thru the cord grips.
Hang the timer on the wall next to your plug.

It's not a cheap creation. Would you get a return worth the investment?

The other thing I was thinking about actually making, maybe selling, is a loss of power audible alarm for those RV breaker trip moments. When the breaker trips a loud alarm would sound for 5 minutes or so.

I just keep thinking Tesla will get the software done sooner than later and there will be no need for any of this stuff.

mrspaghetti | 4 oktober 2012

Agreed, I suspect they'll have scheduled charging, the smartphone app and a bunch of other stuff by the time I get my car. I guess that's one way to console myself for not being an extremely early adopter :)

BYT | 4 oktober 2012

If you spend $600 on an timer that can handle the juice running through it, divided by the cost difference in electricity savings and assuming you charge every night. Let's say it saves you $5, that will take 120 days for you to recoup that amount. If Tesla Motor's incorporates the software update within 4 months, well, you can see how it would be a waste to bother. That doesn't include the costs for Sudre's solution, tax and shipping on top of that.

Michael23 | 4 oktober 2012

Creep is great for traffic. I can creep up a hill in traffic with a g37. In an S you would roll back. If it had hill hold, but no creep then you wouldn't roll forward in traffic unless you were going downhill. You'd just let go of the accelerator and the car wouldn't move. I'd much rather trust the break and creep in traffic then the accelerator and no accelerator with roll.

Most buyers are used to creep, but scheduled charging not so much. Have to bridge the gap before you can innovate IMO

mrspaghetti | 4 oktober 2012

I guess another reason the value of creep was not immediately obvious to me is that I'm used to driving in Houston where there are no hills.

But are you sure the S would roll backwards on a hill? I would think regen would tend to keep it in place unless it's a pretty steep grade, but will take the word of those who've spent some time behind the wheel of the S on hilly terrain.

skystream3.7 | 4 oktober 2012

regen only works going forward not backwards. i was on a slight incline and almost hit the car behind me

kalikgod | 4 oktober 2012


You don't have heavy traffic driving experience in Houston? Man where do you live. I do Woodlands to downtown everyday for work...I use the LEAF creep and (not very aggressive) regen for the slow and go traffic.

I always had stick shifts before, it was only the clutch pedal that go old in traffic. I personally think the Tesla setup, all regen on the Go pedal, with no creep would be my ideal setup. At least Tesla will give the choice on creep.

Tomas | 4 oktober 2012

Yes! It does indeed roll backwards on the slightest of inclines. It drives me nuts. They really have to fix this.
I got the car last week and other the cruise control being were the turn signal should be this is my other majot complaint. It rolls backwards!

I have been having a hell of a time with motions sickness while driving, yes driving, and I think part of my problem may be the backwards creep. Have you ever had that weird, head-spinning experience when a car next to you rolls backwards and you, disoriented, think that you are rolling forward. So you push the brake harder... And harder.. And nothing... Then you realize it is the next to you going backward.... And u get dizzy. It's crazy

BUT, I still LOVE my model S and I love Telsa. It's an amazing car and Tesla really cares and they will get it right.

mrspaghetti | 4 oktober 2012

@kalikgod: I do the opposite commute from you - I live in the Heights and work in the Woodlands, so going against traffic both ways :)

So you do that commute in a Leaf? I'd think that would be really pushing the range, unless you drive 50 mph or something. The round trip for me is about 65 miles, and that's if I don't have to pick up my son or make any detours. I wasn't about to buy an EV unless it had beaucoup range and never expected to have that option before like 2018. One of the reasons I'm so excited about the Model S.

mrspaghetti | 4 oktober 2012

@skystream & Tomas:

Ok, thanks for the education. I guess I'll have to experiment with the creep/regen settings to figure out what works best for me. But at worst it sounds like no more hassle than a stick (which I drive now). I'm sure I'll get used to it.

Michael23 | 4 oktober 2012

Yeah, my wife rolled backwards her first time behind the wheel and thought the car was in reverse. This is why it needs creep ;)

Brian H | 4 oktober 2012

Both feet off the pedals sounds creepy.

;p Sorry!

mrspaghetti | 5 oktober 2012

I do see the viewpoint now of those wanting creep, and there's certainly no harm in having that as an option.

But I still can't help but think: did those first adopters of automobiles ask Henry Ford to include the smell of horse crap in their car? Or beg him to give it more of a "galloping" sensation while driving? Because that's what they were used to.

Beaker | 5 oktober 2012

Manual transition cars don't have creep and society got along just fine with out it, even on steep hills in San Francisco. If we could move our two feet fast enough to handle those hills I'm sure that moving only one will not be insurmountable. However we know it's an option, so turn it on if you want it.

I'm leaving regen on the accelerator and will leave creep off for 3 months to see how it goes.

Alex K | 5 oktober 2012

@Beaker | OCTOBER 5, 2012: Manual transition cars don't have creep and society got along just fine with out it, even on steep hills in San Francisco. If we could move our two feet fast enough to handle those hills I'm sure that moving only one will not be insurmountable.

The way I learned to start moving up a steep hill in a manual transmission car was to also use the hand brake. The Model S does not have a hand control for the brake.

Mark Z | 5 oktober 2012

Southern California Edison time of use (TOU) rates start at 9 PM. When the 2011 Volt had timer problems, I just manually plugged in the J1772 charge handle after 9 at night. Since their TOU rates last until 12 noon, an early 4 hour morning charge worked as well.

IMHO, perhaps the vehicle software will get the upgrade IF Model S sends a command to start and stop the High Power Wall Connector.

Brian H | 5 oktober 2012

Hill hold is not the same as creep.

Sudre_ | 5 oktober 2012

+1 Brian

Not that I think there is anything wrong having either as options.

kalikgod | 5 oktober 2012


My trip is 66 miles in the LEAF. I do it, but the traffic helps my range. I use the eVgo quick chargers if I am making any extra trips.

I am punishing the pack though. 26k miles in 16 months, down two capacity bars. 20 months left on the lease, so in about a year I will need you to take my wife out for a spin in the S so I can seal the deal on a reservation. I checked with the store a month ago, they won't be able to give test drives in Texas because of the dealer laws :(

On Topic, I agree that Hill Hold is the important feature to add for safety. Creep is not for me.

@Alex K

Exactly how I was taught, don't want to burn up the clutch by starting while rolling backwards.

mrspaghetti | 5 oktober 2012

@kalikgod: Deal! I'll take you both out once I take delivery (anticipating June/July). As I said in another thread - I'll be looking for reasons to drive this car :)

No test drives? Hm, I took a test drive when the Get Amped tour came to the Galleria. I wonder why that was an exception...

I agree with the hill hold feature, not sure exactly how it would be implemented though. And I hope the driver will be able to enable/disable all such options as creep & hill hold according to their preference.

kalikgod | 5 oktober 2012


Awesome. I am looking forward to seeing one in the wild.

Get Amped was a "special event" so dealer laws did not apply.

GB already confirmed Creep would be user selectable. I would be very suprised if Hill Hold would not be the same.

mrspaghetti | 5 oktober 2012


We need to hit Twin Peaks, now that you tipped me off to the EV parking spots on the other side of the fence :)

EcLectric | 5 oktober 2012

To creep or not to creep?

At first glance, it's easy to think of creep as an unwanted artifact of the automatic transmission of an ICE car and dismiss it as useless in a modern electric car. The temptation is to toss it out along with the 'time to change your oil' sticker and the smog check. And the argument that it is 'what people are used to' makes it seem even more undesirable.

I will argue that 'creep' is useful on its own merits.

The question can be put this way: Is it better to have the drivetrain of the car apply torque to push the car forward at a slow (walking) speed when the car is in 'drive' and the accelerator is not depressed?

Here is a list of the advantages of creep as I see them:

- better speed control in traffic and while parking
- makes it obvious you are in 'drive'
- no rollback on hills

First, the situation when driving in traffic with creep. When you are stopped in traffic, you want to make sure you stay stopped. You do this by keeping your foot on the brake. If traffic suddenly clears up, you switch to the accelerator and you don't notice the short-lived creep between brake and accelerator. If the car in front of you moves enough that you feel that you should 'catch up', you can just let off the brake a little (not all the way) and the car will creep up closer to the other car at a comfortable speed. Think about it. You let off the brake just enough to allow the car to roll forward a little, and then you push it back down. The creep allows you to use brake feel to precisely control your speed with a single pedal under conditions when that control is critical. While regen allows for one pedal high speed driving, creep allows for one pedal low speed driving.

Did you see the first Model S being delivered? Steve Jurvetson was trying to maneuver inside the factory with hundreds of Tesla employees surrounding him. He didn't have an easy time because of the above two pedal control scenario. He had to quickly switch from accelerator to brake.

Think about the V8, power-brake-having boats of yesteryear. I had a 1969 Lincoln Continental. Imagine sitting in traffic with that power brake pressed all the way down to the floor without having creep. The car in front inches forward. You take your foot off the brake, which rises a few inches as you let off. Now you press the 'gas' pedal to spool up that V8 until the car starts moving. It starts moving suddenly as the engine gets that huge flywheel spinning. As soon as you start moving, you have to take your foot off the 'gas'. Now you are a half second from hitting the car in front of you. You had better get back on the brake - fast! You lift your foot from the gas and press the brake pedal which makes a hissing sound as you slam it to the floor. It takes some time for the pedal-to-slowdown control with those power brakes. Creep turns this entire process into the simple act of softening up the pressure on the brake momentarily.

This one pedal advantage is just as useful while parking. You keep your foot on the brake and allow the car to ease into the space. You might stop and decide you can move forward a few more inches. At this point, do you really want to take your foot off the brake? With creep, you just have to ease up on the brake for a quarter second and you have moved by a few inches.

Another advantage is that you are very aware when the car is in 'drive'. In an automatic, when you stop the car and you are still in drive, you have to keep your foot on the brake, or the car will start moving. When you put the car in 'park' you can feel that the car is no longer trying to move, and you take your foot off the brake and relax. Without creep, you might stop the car, take your foot off the brake and forget that you're still in drive. At some later time, if you press the accelerator, you will get a surprise when the car takes off. The car cannot warn you that you are still (or again) in drive - it doesn't know you are not sitting at a red light.

Another advantage with creep is that if you stop on a hill, it prevents you from rolling backward when you let off the brake to put your foot on the accelerator.

So lets forget about automatic transmissions, flywheels, and being stuck with the QWERTY keyboard because everyone's used to it - and embrace the new: low-speed-single-pedal-control-anti-rollback-and-gear-reminder feature. That's LSSPCARAGRF for you military types.

... Or we could just call it 'creep'.

Teoatawki | 6 oktober 2012

Creep and hill hold are two separate features. Don't count on creep to keep you from rolling backward on hills. If the incline is steeper than the strength of the "creep" you still start to roll backwards.

The rest of your message makes sense, though.

kalikgod | 6 oktober 2012


I understand where you are coming from, but keep in mind the precision of an electric motor is much greater than an ICE. Some of those speed control concerns just won't be an issue with the S.


Sounds good. Send me a note, my user name here @gmail.

EcLectric | 6 oktober 2012


It's really about the delay time between accelerating and decelerating. Although some of the delays that are inherent in a V8 ICE car don't exist in a Tesla, the control advantages of creep are still valid. The critical time is the delay between the moment you realize you are moving fast enough, and the time you are able to stop. If you have to take your foot off the accelerator and press the brake, it's too much time when you are going slowly close to other cars. The brakes on the Model S are just like brakes on any other car, and there is some travel of the pedal before the car begins to slow. At slow speeds, the acceleration and braking times are small, so the pedal to pedal time becomes significant.

If the torque applied when stopped facing uphill were the same as that used for normal creep functionality, perhaps the car would still roll back (though not as fast). It seems to me that any 'hill holding' function would be so closely related to creep as to be part of the same system. Up to a point, the creep torque could be increased when the brake is released to prevent the car from rolling backward.

I found some patents online to remove creep in automatic transmission cars, but I've never seen any implemented. I think there's a good reason for that.

A well thought out 'acceleration control system' can be yet another advantage of electric cars.

Alex K | 6 oktober 2012

@EcLectric | OCTOBER 6, 2012: It seems to me that any 'hill holding' function would be so closely related to creep as to be part of the same system. Up to a point, the creep torque could be increased when the brake is released to prevent the car from rolling backward.

The last several cars that I've had that have hill hold capability have used the brake to accomplish this (Prius, Lexus, Porsche, Audi). Once the cars have detected that they are at an incline and the foot brake applied, the parking brake is engaged and a light indicates that the car is in hold mode. When you remove your foot off the brake, the car stays in hold mode until the accelerator is depressed and the car has sufficient torque to overcome the incline. I'm sure Tesla will implement it the same way using the electrically actuated parking brake.

mdennick | 6 oktober 2012

I have a question related to the current conversation, if not the original topic...

With the current Model S behavior, what does it do if while stopped you left it in drive and just opened the door and got out? I assume it wouldn't move because it doesn't creep (yet) but would it put itself into park and turn off? Without creep someone, use to the ICE behavior, could potentially do that without realizing it.

I'm P4035 so it will be a while for me to test such things.

mrjjp | 6 oktober 2012

IN regarding timers.,
You can purchase a Little BOX timer. I have one on my swimming pool filter outlet. They are relatively cheap and are perfectly safe.

They are available in 120v or 220 v

nickjhowe | 6 oktober 2012

@mrjjp - if you read earlier in this thread you'll see there's already a link to that type of timer, good for 40A

EcLectric | 6 oktober 2012

Alex K

That sounds much simpler for the hill holding case. I think you are right - if they are already electronically controlling the parking brake, it would be easy to use it for hill holding. I still think creep is worthwhile for the other two reasons.