Would you by a MS if every kWh you pulled out of the plug cost you $.45?
I am reservation holder in Denmark where "green taxes" makes this price level of electricity a reality.
i am just curious ?
A few questions: are you in a position to use solar?
What is the price of gasoline in Denmark?
Any subsidies for an EV?
IIRC in Denmark gas costs about $8/gallon. Usual car gets around 30mpg (less if you go for performance like Model S), so 300 miles would be 10 gallons or $80.
300 miles is 85kWh or around 90kWh measured from the wall, so 90*0.45 = $40.5.
It's still cheaper, just not that much cheaper as some other countries get.
From your own math... maybe I am seeing something different but.....
With gas $80 per 300 miles.
With electricity $40 per 300 miles.
It is half price. I consider that quite a savings.
Most people in Europe drive much smaller cars than the Model S and get closer to 50mpg. The cost savings are therefore not quite as attractive as in the US. Having said that - I'd still buy the Model S :-)
what is other choice than buying Model S?
Folks, remember that you will not be getting 300 miles out of a charge. You would only get this with a range charge (not recommended due to battery degradation when used frequently) AND if you are driving 55mph without heat, A/C, etc etc. I am not even close to 300WH/mile.
Forget my post.... My brain is fried today. I will stop posting. Timo has the info above my post... but yah the actual electricity cost is probably more like $50 or $60 for 300 miles.
I think you shouldn't compare the Tesla with a standard vehicle. It's a large high-performance sedan. For example, a Maserati Quattroporte or BMW M5 are more like 15 mpg.
So a more realistic comparison would be perhaps 60 USD for the Tesla vs 160 USD for a comparable ICE over 300 miles?
99.9% of Danish potential buyers are not trying to decide between a Maserati or a Model S. Like myself I am going for the dream car Model S or the sane choice Kia Cee´d SW ot similar ( priced $40-50k ).
The model S is seem a bargain without the 180% car tax, so you will have alot of car at the same price as an Audi A5. But still danish potential buyers do not own Cayennes, Quattroporte etc today.
We do not have alot of sunlight and my model S will be away from home while the sun shines, so solar is not really an option. Although, I have proposed that EV charging will be provided where I work, but I have yet to receive a reply on that.
fishtank, that was kind of my point. It does not matter that other luxury cars get lousy gas mileage because most Europeans considering a Model S would not buy a Maserati in the first place. The incentives are very different. The good news is that even if you bought an A5 it would not live up to the Tesla in terms of performance and pure fun to drive AND you still save money on gas. Go for it!
@ fish tank. Do you not have off- peak in Denmark? In Sydney Austravlia our peak is the same as yours, but off peak is 12 cents. From 10 pm to 7 am. We also have shoulder at around 18 c from 7 am to 2 pm. Peak is from 2 pm to 7 pm. This is why timed charging in the model s is vital for Austravlia.
If it is more expensive to drive an EV, I am still willing to pay the premium to avoid dirty oil, its smoke, smog, smell, and pollution.
It is well worth the money to pay more for:
Of course, it doesn't hurt to pay more for good look too :)
@dborn. We have no off-peak hours in Denmark - not yet anyway - only for very big consumers there are incentives making power cheaper in off-peak hours.
I have quite a big driving need - doing around 50.000 km per year, and have calculated the driving cost to be less than half in a Model S. Better Place has announced a Flat-Rate subscription service for Model S where unlimited consumption costs dkk 1795 per month - unlimited milage.
At this price the cost per km is less than half compared to my current MB C350 (Diesel).
OK, but even comparing with a very efficient ICE I still believe the Model S will have slightly cheaper energy costs, so I'm not sure why there's a problem? In answer to your original question, absolutely, I'm certainly not buying the Model S to save money, so if it doesn't save much in other circumstances it's still a fantastic car.
TM will be building Supercharger stations throughout Europe, too. So for any long-distance travel you do, the electricity will be free!
Brian H - have you any info as to whether there are also plans for superchargers in Australia? Any idea where to search for such info?
kseitzberg - the idea in Australia is that the base load power has to be produced anyway, and the infrastructure costs so much to build, if they can divert some consumption to lower demand periods they can defer/delay putting in new power stations. We have very little hydro here - some in Tasmania and some around Canberra. Most of our power comes from burning coal. The idea is to run high consuming items like swimming pool pumps and air conditioners during the cheaper periods. It does work - we defer doing dish washing til after 8 pm since that is a "shoulder" period, and i filter my pool after midnight. This has nothing to do with electric cars, but of course, we can take advantage of that as well.
Here's some math for you:
About 200 miles on a standard charge (90%) or roughly 77kWh at 385Wh/mi (real data over 3,000 miles of driving).
Note that it's 77kWh *used*. Your charger is not 100% efficient.
Actually, as measured, it's about 70% efficient, even with reduced losses due to idle loads in 4.1 firmware, so to replenish 77kWh you'll need ~100kWh.
At 0.45c per kWh that's $45.
If you're driving a comparable car like BMW M5 or Jaguar XFR, the average mpg would vary between 17mph and 19mpg, let's say it's 18mpg.
If you're paying $8 per gallon, that's $89 for 200 miles vs $45 for your model S.
Obviously your math will be different if you have a car that can do over 30mpg (not unusual for diesel or hybrids).
If you wanted to break even, your mileage on ICE should be 35mpg or above.
It's next to impossible to achieve this on a high performance ICE sedan though.
Comparing Model S with a VW golf doesn't make much sense, apples and oranges.
Here's how same math works in California:
Tier 4 (the most expensive) electricity price is $0.34 or $34 for 200 miles of driving (see the math above).
The premium gas price today (we're talking a high performance sedan that needs high octane) is $3.80 a gallon.
With 18mpg average you're paying $42 to drive 200 miles or just about 20% more than driving a Tesla S.
Now, if you manage to stay in Tier1 electricity pricing at about $0.11 per kWh, suddenly you're at $11 per 200 miles and that's almost four times (!) cheaper than gas.
Staying in tier1 though normally requires a large enough PV system on your roof to offset anything above 340kWh or so a month (PGE baseline).
That's not easy to achieve, but doable.
My purpose is to make a smaller footprint. The fact that the car is cool happens to be a bonus.
It's all expensive and having spent a lot if time in Denmark I understand you can't win! If you buy a different car you will pay 40% more in Denmark and still $8.50 for a gallon of gas so it is really a moot point paying $.45 kw, comparing all these thing to the US.You can get free healthcare and a free PhD in Denmark because of uou tax system but we cannot us in the US, so it all works out in the end fishtank.
The Model S is not an economic decision IMO. From the strictly cost standpoint, I think the lower cost hybrids (Prius, Ford Energi Cmax) make more sense. That's for cost comparisons in the US - may be different for European costs and gas prices. I'm getting the MS because I want a long range electric car and it's the only realistic option here. The quality, performance and style are very nice bonuses.
You can investigate charging options away from home such as possible free charging at your workplace that may lower your overall cost. If/when Tesla Supercharging comes to Europe, then even better!
Heh. Reminds me of one of my other fave hobby-horses/causes: Focus Fusion ( LPPhysics.com ). If their project succeeds, in 5-10 years their generators will be producing power at 0.3¢/kWh. Try the math on that! About 1% of Tier 4.
The cost of maintenance needs to be calculated into this discussion, not just "fuel" costs, especially when clocking 50K kms/year...
@L8MDL: Totally agree - maintenance costs needs to be included and I have included this into my calculation - assuming this to be 70% compared to my ICE.
@dborn: In Denmark most power is produced from Natural gas, Wind and the amount produced from coal is going down - as more and more windmills are established at sea. However the prices havent yet been differentiated for the consumers in Denmark. For the time being it is a flat rate system, even though prices for buying and selling power in the market varies. The prices for electricity is public available in Denmark - www.energinet.dk (Search for marketdata) - and in some cases you can actually get paid to consume some of the Danish production - however only is you are aither a power operator in Denmark or one of our neighbour contries. Unfortunately we as endusers does not benefit directly from this.. Periods like this is when we are having stormy weather and the wind mills are producing loads of power - perfect for my future Model S..
With regard to maintenance, I thought there was a 600 or $700 a year maintenance contract that basically took care of everything? I believe that also was to cover the 3G that people have been querying about.
Given the cost of the Model S, it isn't really a financial savings regardless of the price of electricity vs gas. You can certainly get cheaper transportation, but can you get everything else?
If I was looking at it at just a financial decision, I would have just kept the LEAF and when my wife's car needed to be replaced bought a Prius or something for long-distance trips.
I know Elon spoke of SC throughout Europe and Asia. I assume that would include Oz. Call ownership and ask.
Wow that sucks. My power rate is about 0.085/kwh.
I know you're in WA. The new Seattle City Light rates are 4.66 cents for the first 10 kWh per day, 10.71 cents thereafter. It's really gone up. Where are you?
Partly the rise is because the distributor is obligated to buy from expensive "green" sources (except hydro) in preference, whenever there's surplus, which forces the regular generators to ramp down, and screws up their finances, so they have to raise prices too. On top of the wind and solar subsidies, of course. Nice work if you can get it.
Nah, City Light is mostly hydro, just like your BC Hydro. It does buy other sources, but not because it is obligated to (again, just like BC Hydro). And like BC Hydro, it's owned by a governmental entity.
@DouglasR I'd rather not say in this public thread, but yeah, I'm in the Puget Sound area.
Discussion of forced purchasing (among other issues):http://www.wapower.net/supporters.html