I guess they are finally taking Tesla seriously...
Too little too late!
Whoa, watch out Tesla! The 330e goes a whole 14 miles on pure electric... Pathetic.
I think BMW has been taking Tesla seriously for some time (last year they announced their whole fleet would eventually be hybrid).
Why the hate? BMW is moving in the direction Tesla pushed them (sure, they would do better to make BEVs than hybrids, but they'll come around. Maybe they'll buy Tesla, or partner with them, and we can get Tesla-quality drivetrains with BMW-quality fit and finish. Win/win)
One more example of a small start up, Tesla, now has the attention of the big boys. Too bad all they have is attention and very little action. Hopefully real action is the next step.
@Gman, how is a 14 mile electric hybrid moving in the right direction? They are still in protect their business model mode! Their only electric car ( ugly, low range, no charging options) is also doing the same thing. I will agree when they produce a long range 3 series car and support it appropriately !
It is weird that the big boys continue to let Tesla leap ahead. At the rate Tesla is growing they could become the biggest if allowed to. Inaction will sink many of the old boys ... I can't see Fiat Chrysler surviving this for starters ... VW group will survive ironically because cheating on diesels forced them into electrics. Tough call re BMW.
Technically, BMW is going backward with this 14 miles range hybrid. Ford Fusion Energi PIH came out with 20 miles battery range 4 years ago. And the base price is still 10 grands less to boot.
Beat that, BMW!
BMW i3 is a competitor to leaf or volt, not anything Tesla has built or will build. The i8 (hybrid) was built to outperform the model s and it did a poor job. the problem with bmw is they are trying to keep the car light by adding a small battery with a small gas engine.
They don't see that a heavy cars like the model S, X and 3 works? I would love to see through their eyes and see what they see when they look at the Model S.
What gets me is the premium, in thousands of dollars, that BMW charges for 14 miles of fully electric range, over the Honda Accord Plug-In Hybrid which provided 13 miles range.
SilverP85plus: I believe they see a nightmare wherein the executives in charge of engine design, top of the heap in status and power, are replaced by guys who design electric motors instead.
"BMW i3 is a competitor to leaf or volt, not anything Tesla has built or will build."
More importantly BMW made sure i3 will not attract a single potential 3 series buyer by making it so tiny, expensive and, particularly, ugly. BMW is not sincere about EV transition and it could not afford to let that happen too soon either.
The fully electric car evolution is turning the traditional auto business model, in particular the Dealership model into a huge liability! Dealers are not interested in marketing cars that do not fit their sevice revenue model. Something has to change.
Thank you BMW for the free advertising for Tesla! BMW is basically admitting that their car is inferior and that the only advantage they have is.....time. Why wait for a sexy, all electric Model 3, when you can have a crappy fossil car now?
It straight up does spend almost the entire commercial talking about waiting for "that" car company's new model. Tesla's existing model is already the world's best clap back... they won't make a dueling commercial because THEY DON'T NEED COMMERCIALS to sell cars.
"It's the car you've been waiting for without the wait."
Really? 14 miles of EV range for $44,000?
I'll wait another year for a real BEV that's $35,000.
If Tesla does do commercials it could counter one with the guy with a S60 parked on the driveway with the caption no more compromises now. Factor in gas and maintanence savings plus tax credit an S60 is as affordable as that incapable and dirty car with ancient technology.
Did you notice the 330e driving away with a roar of the ICE engine? :)
I was curious and went to a BMW forum to see the reactions. I expected of course to see BMW fans defending their brand (one argument for example is to talk down the Model S because its design looks like a Korean car. They must be running out of arguments :) but I was surprised to see many BMW fans defending Tesla... the conversion has begun.
Where is BMW airing these ads. I haven't seen them. Must only be on the Comedy channel.
Yeah.. funny. "The car you've been waiting for without the wait"? That clearly shows they have NOT been paying attention.
Surely they sent someone to the reveal to scope it out? Hell you could watch one youtube video and know that nothing BMW offers competes with it.
If they had one with a range of 250 miles.. maybe even 300 miles.. then they would have a competitor. With a hybrid solution.. they simply get laughed at.
@Edward: "how is a 14 mile electric hybrid moving in the right direction?"
BMW has 100 years of expertise in ICE development and every reason to stay the course. But they’ve committed to (partly) electrifying their entire fleet.
For them that’s a big deal.
It’s absurd to expect them to change overnight to a product they have no clear advantage with (BEVs).
Remember McDonald’s trying to sell salads? Didn’t work out so well for them— a McDonald’s patron doesn’t want a salad.
So yeah: a step in the right direction.
I do think it could be a strategic error to highlight that "other" electric car maker this way. But these ads could be effective for the audience they are targeting. You all assume they are after reservation holders. They are not. They are after all those people who must buy an electric car for Tesla to thrive, beyond the original reservations. They are simply planting the seed that there is more than one electric car maker of note.
Also, pay attention to what BMW has done, and is doing today. BMW has built a plant specifically to build their 2 fully electric models. It is a beautiful, state of the art factory. It has it's own gridless power supply. They produce the cars with the highest levels of "green" and natural source materials. Green matters to many, and no other manufacturer comes close to what BMW has accomplished in this area.
BMW vehicles have been known for a high level of performance for many years. Do you really think that they can't shift gears?
BMW doesn't have two fully electric models. It has 2 hybrid models, one of which is rendered impotent when the Rex engine is not engaged.
@dans - We're paying attention to what BMW is doing and will do. We're not worried about anything remotely comparable to the S. At least not in this decade.
You are correct that the i8 is in fact a hybrid. It has an amazing 3.1 l/100km combined rating however. I stand corrected, and did not intend to misinform.
The i3 is not a hybrid. It is an all electric car, from the ground up. It has a range of about 125 miles for 2017. The range extender option consists of a tiny gas powered generator, which never has to be engaged for most users. That is far from impotent, if that is the model referred to.
The point of my post was that BMW is serious and has invested billions already. They can, and will, carve out a piece of future EV markets.
@dan - Yes, so let's see: half the range, a fraction of the performance for more than half the price.
Oh, and no charging network.
No competition at all. I laugh at the i3, because virtually every one I've seen has the green HOV stickers indicating it belches greenhouse gas from dead dinos. Then I wonder what happened to the back half of the i3.
"Remember McDonald’s trying to sell salads?"
Remember Kodak's half-assed try on digital photography? Or Blackberry on touch screen smart phone? Or IBM on personal computer? Or Blackbuster on DVD by mail or video streaming? They have done all those before giving up the original market they used to dominate. They did not believe it and were hoping the new disrutive product would just go away in the begining. When it did not they were still not willing to risk what they got and go all in to adapt the new technology. They just don't have the luxury to do that. That's why, with rare exceptions, it's invariable that disruptive technologies are always implemented by newcomers instead of legacy companies.
Do you really beleive CEO of BMW, or GM or Mercedes, would go to the board and say I need $5 billion asap to build a battery factory, I think it's very important so we can fight Tesla? He's not that smart, and not that stupid either. He did not get to the high position because he does not know how to only place safe bets.
I tweeted to Elon today regarding this. Unfortunately he's not in a Twitter mood today.
If the Tesla is so superior, why do you need to distort the facts about the i3.
The charging infrastructure is growing by leaps and bounds, as we speak. I just read that in Ontario, Canada, they will install an additional 500 charge stations by next spring. As with Tesla's, most charging will take place at home, overnight.
I agree that many vehicles with pathetic electric only mileage, are a bad joke. 15, 20,or 30 mile range is a non starter for me. However the i3 allows for 83 miles with the smaller battery, and 125 miles with the new model. That range, even with the lower sized battery, can easily accommodate the daily needs of the vast majority of commuters. A car doesn't have to meet or exceed Tesla's range to compete with Tesla. It only has to be functional with a fair safety margin, which the i3 delivers, even without the range extender.
I'm not claiming the i3 is the most beautiful car in the world. The Prius has proven that the eco conscious will drive an ugly vehicle. It is all a matter of personal taste, and lifestyle choice. Personally, I don't like the look of the front "grill" on the M3. To me it detracts from the look of an otherwise excellent looking vehicle. All a matter of taste.
And finally, "belches greenhouse gas from dead dinos". The i3 could spend its' entire lifespan without the use of the REX option. Few commuters will ever need the extra mileage, but it provides a level of peace of mind, that eliminates range anxiety. FYI many sources of electricity belch greenhouse gas as well. Owning a Tesla does not allow you to own the moral high ground. It just moves the emissions from the tailpipe to the smokestack.
The only way for them to compete is to: 1) go to a full EV 2) make a good looking car (i3 is a joke) and 3) they need to have SC stations across the nation. No traditional car company is willing to do this. If they did they would be able to compete against Tesla Not happening soon
You should read BMW's financial releases. You would be shocked and amazed at how much capital they are allocating, and for what purposes.
Kodak could have owned digital photography. They invented it actually. If they had leadership with vision and an ability to see other paradigms, they would have made many billions. However, they did not have that kind of leadership, and continued on the faulty model of being "paid" for every picture taken. With the right leadership, we would probably have Kodakbook, rather than Facebook today. Facebook is, in its' simplest form, a photo sharing portal.
Large corporations can occasionally reinvent themselves and evolve. IBM thrives with nary a single PC sale. And they invented the PC as we know it.
SC stations are NOT needed. Eventually the public charging infrastructure will include much more level 2 and level 3 charging. Many areas are building out charging infrastructure ahead of EV sales. Private enterprise is getting involved, as are large retailers etc., as they see profit potential from future EV customers.
Bmw doesn't have to be "all this or all that". I believe that they will adapt as quickly as they need to.
Arguing vehicle looks when talking about BMW, is a non starter. BMW makes some gorgeous cars. No reason to think they won't also make beautiful EV's. The i3 is gaudy on purpose. It attracts attention and gets people talking. It certainly is not the final word on BMW EV design.
There no reasons for any of the majors to not build fully electric vehicles. Why haven't they? For those that claim they would have a Tesla killer ready in 5 years, where will Tesla be then?
How long would you have to charge at a L2 charger to get 200 miles? Answer: 12 hours. I've done it at Hershey's Chocolate World. Nobody would wait that long for a charge unless every destination is an amusement park where they would stay for at least 12 hours.
Just because they have the money to spend do not mean they would spend it on EV or infrastructure.
You both make good points about BMW and Tesla vehicles/network. I'm not fond of the i3 looks, and the range could use another boost. But, despite the looks and lower range, this car does sell in reasonable numbers, and, like the Volt and Prius, they help Tesla push the EV revolution forward. Obviously, there is no comparison between the MS and the i3. But if BMW would launch a true EV with good range and design resembling a more traditional BMW look, it could see a rise in sales (assuming BMW charge network continues to expand).
An L2 will give you the 35 miles you need to get home in 1 hour 20 minutes with a good charging system on board. A poor system will take longer. Why would you need 200 miles from a destination charger?
Mathew98 lives on long island I believe, he would need more than 35 miles.
You're forgetting winter also where you lose about 30% efficiency.
I need 200 miles to get from Charlottesville, VA to the Newark, DE SC.
@Dansplan - You under estimated the number of family with kids that go on day trips, weekend trips, and summer vacations.
My family needs 200 miles to go on weekend trips. My S60 has been perfect for all our travelling needs for the last 3+ years . We went to Hershey's way before there were superchargers in our vacinity. We covered the 400 miles round trip in the same day. The kids needed to be in school the next day...
Not all L2 chargers are the same. Not sure where you got your figure from. The L2 chargers from Hershey's and in Epcot [Chargepoint] were 17 miles per hour. How were you able to get any higher output from any other L2 chargers?
Did I mention we took 2 round trips from NY to FL (2500 miles RT) in our S60? The Supercharger network was ESSENTIAL since flying was out of the question. We didn't need any destination charging once the Orlando SC was opened.
There us no way in h@ll an i3 with Rex can travel anywhere close to where we have been. Unless you're the type to stop and "destination" charge for 10 hours for every 2 hours of driving.
We all need to put o. Our rose colored glasses on this, and not be so shortsighted. I see these commercials as winners at multiple levels.
1. BMW has a great, loyal fanbase, which they want/need to hold on to. Thsee commercials should provoke curiosity to the economy conscious BMW fanboi. Some might choose to learn more about that 'other EV manufacturer,' some might choose to get a hyybrid for their next BMW (which is a step in the right direction), and most importantly- each commercial drills the message to the general audience, that the transition is happenning. What is there to complain about. You can't expect a company to just bow their head in defeat. We need them to use whatever tools they have to provoke the audience to consider moving away from fossil fuel.any Tesla owners started with a hybrid.
I personally love the implied nod to the little baby company that was never expected to still be here
Model 3 and Chevy Bolt will be leaders in the EV mid-priced world. Leaf, i3 and the others will need to up the ante if they expect to compete with $35,000-$37,500 Model 3 and Bolts.
They are not on the map yet with a 100% EV vehicle, but my guess is Honda will eventually make a strong showing in the EV arena as well. My experience with Honda is that they are usually not the first, but when they do decide to do something, they usually do it better than most. As well, EVs fit well into Honda's tradition of low-emission vehicles.
Wasn't Honda the first to introduce a hybrid, Insight? It was a flop and Prius became the gold standard instead...
Many good points above.
All charger output is dependent on set up and load. Just as a supercharger station can slow down when all slots are full, so too can destination chargers. It is more noticeable with destination chargers.
Apparently, if the chargers were installed using federal grant money they max out at 26 miles per hour of charge. Level 2 chargers can deliver up to 70 miles per hour of charge. That's correct. A fully powered level 2 charger could deliver 200 miles of charge in just under 3 hours. The amount you can receive is based on the on board hardware and software of your vehicle, combined with the charger set up.
This is why I believe that a supercharger network is not essential to potential sales or extended travel with EV's in general. Of course it would be wonderful if everyone could add 200 miles in 20 minutes, but the EV revolution can continue with or without that perk.
@dansplans - Hey, different strokes. I still laugh at that fugly i3-rex, every rare time I see one on SoCal freeways.
Sadly, CARB disagrees with you. It belches greenhouse gasses like any other ICE, or they would assign it white stickers for both the i3 and i3-rex. They don't.
And let's not even talk about charging. I challenge someone with an i3 to drive from L.A. to Las Vegas. Go ahead, make my day. It'll take you a good part of your day to make the trip, that's 4.5 hours in a MS, including charging. :-)
@sklancha wrote, "...commercials should provoke curiosity to the economy conscious BMW fanboi."
Not sure such a rare bird exists, but I am willing to admit I don't know all BMW fanbois. When I was growing up BMW tried to sell to rich yuppies. Not sure what they call their demographic now. Hipsters? Doesn't matter.
@sklancha continued (revised for clarity), "What is there to complain about? You can't expect a company to just bow their head in defeat. We need them to use whatever tools they have to provoke their audience to consider moving away from fossil fuels. Many Tesla owners started with a hybrid."
There's no question a lot of Tesla owners have had (or continue to have) hybrids and other cars. I agree that purest can get a little touchy when it comes claims of being an "electric car maker" by BMW. BMW's plans call for the "electrification" of their entire fleet by 2022. They "will be plug-in hybrids or electric and most will be AWD EREVs."
As long as they have realistic electric-only range, then the fact that they have REX engines is less of a concern. But, still a minor concern. And, this is definitely an interim step. A counter example is VW's plans:
New Group strategy adopted: Volkswagen Group to become a world-leading provider of sustainable mobility
• "TOGETHER – Strategy 2025" ushers in the biggest change process in the Company's
history, with the focus on transforming the core business and tapping potential new
• Major electrification initiative planned: more than 30 new e-vehicles by 2025, annual
unit sales target of two to three million
• Battery technology, digitalization and autonomous driving to be developed into new
• Components business to be realigned
• New mobility solutions business to be quickly expanded
• Projected investments in future technologies in the double-digit billion range, financed
through Group-wide efficiency improvements and portfolio optimization
• Operating return on sales of 7 to 8 percent and return on capital employed in the
Automotive Division of more than 15 percent by 2025 targeted
• Increasing profitability and efficiency of the Volkswagen brand are key to achieving
• CEO Matthias Müller: "The Volkswagen Group will be more focused, efficient,
innovative, customer-driven and sustainable – and systematically geared to generating
@dansplans - "Level 2 chargers can deliver up to 70 miles per hour of charge.
There's theoretical, and there's reality. Public L2 chargers in US are limited to 26 MPH charge maximum. We can charge our MS via J1772 plug at 17 MPH max.
Please name one station in the US that exceed that speed. Or perhaps these L2 chargers capable of 70 miles are in other corners of the world? WHICH EV can charge at the speed your mentioned?
Pure BEV sales cumulative from when the car was introduced to July 2016 (source Inside EV)
Nissan Leaf 96,428
Tesla Model S 76,431
BMW i3 21,475
The Leaf was introduced in 2010. The Model S in 2012, and the i3 in 2014.
The i3 and Leaf are very similar cars. They have very similar range and target a similar audience - commuters, around town drivers. NOT long distance travel. The Model S a totally different audience.
If governments or private companies refuse to spend a few dollars extra to give the full value of the available technology, that is an issue between you and your representatives. It is simply a matter of going cheap with the original charger installations. Installing 100 amp system wiring and hardware would allow for maximum charging.
Your Tesla is capable of accepting charging up to 60+ miles per hour of charging from a level 2 smart charger.
@dansplans - I'm only questioning your high speed charging for L2 charging that is NOWHERE to be found. How is it feasible that it would approach the HPWC that Tesla sells that provide up to 80 MPH charge?
Normal charging for NEMA 14-50 outlet only provide up to 29 MPH charge. Chargepoint and Blink networks are the most visible ones.
You're talking about fantasy L2 charging speed that no other EV are capable of. Even the MS are not able to get more than 17 MPH from L2 J1772 plug because they are non existent.
Once again, it's theoretical versus reality. Why do you think BMW or other supposedly EV challengers could leverage existing network of public charging stations that can't provide more than 17 MPH charge? Level 3 and other high speed charging standard can't even agree on who should take credits.
Will you consider that without an established high speed charging network similar to the Superchargers, there will be little hope of easy interstate travelling in any EV challengers to Tesla?
When will BMW (or others) build a pure BEV (no REX) that I can drive from California to New York in comparable time to an ICE?
Tesla is the only manufacturer so far and the $35k Model 3 will accomplish this feat just as easily as S or X.
@Mathew98 - You ignored an very important part of what I said. The failure of much of the existing L2 charging network is due to the short sightedness of governments and private companies building public charging infrastructure. By skimping a couple thousand dollars per charger they are doomed to need an expensive overhaul in the near future to allow proper L2 charge rates.
BMW and VW have partnered with Chargepoint to allow their DC fast charging with the SAE Combo plug. That allows an 80% charge in 20 minutes, albeit on a much smaller battery than a Tesla. These stations will charge at 24 miles per hour of charge on level 2. The J1772-2009 connector is rated for 80A 19Kw charging, but it sounds like you are stuck at 3.3Kw or at best 6.6Kw. This is normally a function of the on board inverter and seems odd that a Tesla would produce such results. Perhaps a software update is needed?
Maybe you need to seek out Chargepoint DC fastchargers to get the higher level 2 ability.
I believe the single charger maxes at 10kw and supercharging is at 120 kw. Last I checked