What is the cost of a replacement battery when the battery life has depleted?
No one really knows and it may decrease in time with better technology. They carry an 8 year warranty.
Based on the upgrade costs, Tesla is selling the batteries at $200 per kwh installed.
This assumption is based on the P90D upgrade to P100D option.
Generally batteries don't die, they slowly reduce the maximum amount of charge they can hold. So a battery after 10 years and 120K miles of use, might only hold 90% of the charge that it did when new. For some this may make a replacement desireable, and others wouldn't care until it gets down to 70% or less. The battery may last 25 years and still have a small amount of charge (no idea how much - maybe 30%), so it is going to take a very long time to be fully depleted.
AFAIK degradation rate falls continuously. I wouldn't be surprised if >50% capacity was left after >200K miles.
I've heard rough estimates of 5% degradation the first year and 1% per year thereafter. After 18 months I haven't seen this 5% degradation. Maybe 1-2% so far on a 85kwh 'E' pack. I live in a cold climate so that might help.
From Brian H
"AFAIK degradation rate falls continuously. I wouldn't be surprised if >50% capacity was left after >200K miles."
Greater than 50% after 200k?
I certainly hope not.
I would hope for better battery life.
Of course it's greater than 50%--that statement makes no sense. I'm at ~95% at 110,000 miles.
In the rechargeable battery industry, batteries are considered done when they hit 80% of original capacity. These Tesla/Panasonic cells are the best cells on the planet. They will last longer than most people will own the car. And when they do reach 80% of original capacity, they can be put to use as home power storage and run for many, many more years at low power draw. Imagine how many of these "used" packs will be available. We can have 100's of Kwh of home power storage lining the walls of the garage.
@BrianH. I thought your climate change denial was the only place you posted BS. Obviously not. You are not even an owner so how would you even know anything about the Tesla battery. My battery is similar to that of bighorn. We suffered a quick 4-5 % loss. I am at 97000 miles after 3 yr 4 months and perhaps have lost another 1-2 % over the past year. But I have not done a recent recalibration. There have been enough studies up to 100,000 miles on the 85S and the 60S to show that this is what we tend to experience. Brian I wish you would qualify your opinions by stating that you are a non owner and a climate change denier and are just expressing unsubstantiated thoughts not supported opinions.
2 1/2 years, 52000 miles, 1.8% loss. Full charge is 260
Sccrendo after all your posts about people being mean to johndoe/bbotin where do you get off ripping into brian h?
Just correcting facts on Brian. He makes incorrect statements on climate change and now is posting BS on the battery. He has no idea. He is not an owner and he is wrong. As this is an unmoderated forum BS needs to be called out.
Its your tpne. Glass house..
Rocks... dont throw them
@sccrendo, Please don't speak like that other guy. It doesn't become you. You're cool.
@lilbean. Not speaking like the other guy. Just correcting Brian. His facts are wrong. If they were correct he should be able to support them. He has a long track record of making false ridulous statements regarding climate change. He has been following the forums before I even came on board. But as a non owner he has no experience with the car. As an owner since April 2013 with over 97000 miles folk like Bighorn and myself certainly know a lot more about the battery than Brian. I even called out the other guy when he couldn't support his theories on driving into the wind with facts. This forum is not moderated. I feel it is the obligation of the regulars to correct incorrect statements. If my facts are incorrect please feel free to correct me. I have no shame in retracting incorrect statements on my part.
@sccrendo, Thank you. I wasn't aware of that as I don't follow the climate change threads. I feel comments from non-owners and those who do not have experience with the car should not criticize the car's functions as they are unlikely to have a full understanding of the car and how it works in the real world.
You have repeated your "I even called out the other guy when he couldn't support his theories on driving into the wind with facts."
You didn't call me out. You made a false claim. Here is my previous reply to you. The fact that you repeat it here is disgusting behaviour.
On August 21 I personally emailed you when you were not understanding the topic on the forum:
"Would you please discuss the headwind thread with someone who has tertiary instruction in physics and mathematics. You have a fundamental lack of understanding of the issue and I am failing to get you to understand that you do. I am sincere in my request...Hi again. If you do find someone to explain the vehicle energy loss graph to you, and you get to understand that my statement is correct, then it would be appreciated that you post on the forum that you now agree that my statement is correct."
You then posted on this thread that you were going to ask your cousin who is a professor of mathematics.
You then posted on another thread "The mph thread was certainly not one of his strongpoints and his ego prevented him from admitting to be wrong."
When I read that, I privately emailed you:
"You posted "The mph thread was certainly not one of his strongpoints and his ego prevented him from admitting to be wrong."
I am not wrong. I am not going to admit to being wrong when I am not.
Did you ask your cousin about the wind resistance?"
You then replied "To be honest I have more important issues to deal with. Your mph thread is BS, drop it."
So you decided that you would not longer ask you cousin, called the thread BS, and still did not understand the thread.
You then posted "Whether you were right or wrong is immaterial to me. I agree with most on this thread that I never understood the point you were trying to make. On the graphs you posted there was insufficient info for me to draw a conclusion one way or the other as there were no graphs on car performance with wind."
So what does this show?
It shows that rather than arguing with you on the forum, I asked you privately to consult someone who would understand the topic. I asked you to post what you learn on the forum. Rather than ask your cousin, as you both publicly and privately said you would do, and after me emailing you that ' it would be appreciated that you post on the forum', you decided not to, and instead posted on the forum that I was wrong and that my ego prevented me from admitting it. And then you then post that you don'e care if I was wrong or not, and do not even understand the OP. i.e. you posted that I was wrong and don't even know if I am or not.
I wrote privately to you:
"You had not found out if I was wrong, but posted that I was wrong. Your post was a slap in the face, as well as incorrect. If you are trying to help me then email your cousin and post on the forum that I am not wrong, if and when you find out that I am not."
You still did not ask your cousin. Instead you have continued your personal posts when you don't even understand the topic. You went back on your word. You posted I was wrong and wouldn't admit it, when you don't even know if I am wrong or not.
At the end of the day, you have been posting nothing of value regarding the OP for about a week. You have been making personal comments instead. You are ignorant of the topic and refused to get educated about it, but chose to make false and personal statements instead. Why you have done this I do not know. You have said multiple times the thread is BS and do not understand it. So why keep make your personal posts on it?
Now to get back to the point of the OP.
The point is concise, and has not changed:
"It is emphatically not the case that driving at speed X with a Y headwind, is the same (uses the same energy) as driving at speed X+Y with no headwind."
If you do not understand this statement, then consult someone who does.
Just to be clear. You have no idea if I am wrong or not. You refuse to educate yourself to find out. You post lies. You repeat those lies.
And when they do reach 80% of original capacity, they can be put to use as home power storage and run for many, many more years at low power draw.
I've seen this claim made for extra-vehicle uses of EV batteries for years. As far as I know it's never been done except perhaps on a private level. AFAIK Tesla has never said anything about it. The Tesla battery is encumbered by a complex liquid cooling system that would make out-of-vehicle use even more problematic, it seems to me.
Good point, though the current levels would be much lower than seen in supercharging and rapid acceleration. Less need for heat management. It has been done on a private level, though I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to make.
@Dramsey - Actually Wk056 has converted a Tesla battery into a slick battery backup/solar storage system for his house. In his system, it doesn't need liquid cooling as the house is maintained at a far more narrow temperature range than a car. That said, it's not something the average joe can do today!
@Dramsey, Quote: "I've seen this claim made for extra-vehicle uses of EV batteries for years. As far as I know it's never been done except perhaps on a private level."
I did some looking on this several months ago. Here are some of the resources on it. Daimler was collecting batteries from the Smart EVs and partnering with another company to make it into a grid storage system. The 13MWh system is deployed and running in Lunen Germany.
Interesting! I hadn't heard of that previously. That said, methinks recycling Mod S batteries this way is something Tesla should be doing, or at least planning for. I imagine there aren't too many "used up" Mod S battery packs available just yet.
@Dramsey, Probably not yet, but did you ever read the pdf file of the gigafactory proposal, back when they were first shopping the idea around to various Southwestern states? It showed right there in the plans that reuse/recycling of battery packs was going to be part of the factory.
JB on batteries
below from video notes
And, for another highlights video of JB Straubel at a panel during the International Transport Conference
Tesla Motors (NASDAQ: TSLA) Co-Founder and Chief Technology Officer JB Straubel was a keynote speaker at the International Transport Forum in Leipzig, Germany during an Open Ministerial Session titled, "Accelerating the transition: Innovation for greener and more inclusive transport." Straubel spoke at the session and received some challenging questions afterwards. He addressed standards for both electric vehicle charging and autonomous driving but focused mostly on "three main innovation forcing trends" which he defined as electric propulsion technology, environmental pressure, and autonomous technology. This video only has Straubel's speech and highlights from the Q&A. The complete/full video (over two hours) can be found below...
Source: International Transport Forum; Original Video:https://youtuDOTbe/vEYOtcs3OfM
Lots of hostility here. BrianH may be a climate change denier but that doesn't make him automatically wrong about everything. (I could add that the same in reverse may be true of certain climate change advocates).
"David N | September 3, 2016
From Brian H
"AFAIK degradation rate falls continuously. I wouldn't be surprised if >50% capacity was left after >200K miles."
Greater than 50% after 200k?
I certainly hope not."
BrianH's statement may be so vague as to be unhelpful, but it is not wrong, let alone "BS". No doubt capacity WILL BE MORE THAN 50%, perhaps even 80% or 90%, after MORE THAN 200k miles perhaps even 300 or 500k miles.
David, do you WANT your battery to have LESS THAN 50% when you've driven 200k?
Of course, if BrianH meant ABOUT 50%, then I hope he's talking BS. But that's not what he wrote.
So much antagonism here these days.
BTW I'm going to get to try to get to the bottom of the headwind problem when I find the time, and try to lay some ghosts to rest. Does anyone else remember it as being whether "at highway speeds" losses dues to headwinds were "comparable to" driving that much faster in still air? I'm working on speeds of 60 mph into a 10 mph headwind versus 70 mph in still air. My recollection is also that much of the heat in the previous thread arose from a dispute about the measurement of energy consumption (total) or only "losses". But I will do the maths, someday.
Here's the origin of the headwind controversy:https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/wind-effect-model-s-range-highway-...
Have at it:)
@T90KWH . Brian's climate change denial adds to his infamy and is one source of his infamy. His incessant nitpicking nasty spell checking and syntax correction was another. This recent post certainly does not pass any fact checking test. He is not an owner so his experience with Tesla batteries is likely zero to none. he has no supporting data. This is an open unmoderated forum. So the onus is on us to correct misstatements. Many come here to learn about the car. If I thought my battery would be less than 50% at 200k miles I may have had some second thought about the the car because at this point (97500 miles) his prediction would have suggested less than 75 % range making my car less practical/impractical at this point. So Brian's lack of credentials and false statements need to be highlighted so they can be judged on their merits. So no apologies. Indeed every time he makes a false statement I will unapologetically repeat his credentials.
Wind speed is relative, no? If you measure the wind speed, you may have no idea how much is from the vehicle moving and how much from the wind blowing with or against you. And of course how would you have any idea what the wind speed is and what the exact direction it is coming from?
Knowledgeable sailors know about apparent wind. Google search
apparent wind definition
Request, please see above post and watch youtube of JB talking about batteries. Few if any are more knowledgeable about batteries than JB, right?
@SCCRENDO: my challenge to the challenge (if I may put it that way) to BrianH's comment, was that DavidN seemed to have misunderstood the equation. I wasn't really commenting on the narrative "AFAIK degradation rate falls continuously" (which is grammatical nonsense and mathematically inaccurate), because that was not the part that DavidN expressed the hope to be untrue.
The fact that BrianH is a non-owner AND/OR a climate change denier also doesn't make his arithmetical statement that the battery after >200k miles would be at >50% wrong. He does not say (pace your comment to me) that capacity would be LESS than 50%, he says it will be MORE than 50%. 51% is more than 50%, but so are 80%, 90% and 95%. His statement is meaningless, but it is not wrong. That's all.
@T90KWH. I did misread it as <50. But either way even if not wrong it is totally misleading. Loss is not linear. The battery is unlikely to go below 50% at 200k miles. But we cannot be 100% sure of that either. I don't know of anyone above 200k. Abby5 is meant to be at 177k but had his battery replaced at 94k.
The >50% comment was so meaningless that I gave Brian the benefit of the doubt that he had simply mistyped <50%, which happens to be extremely pessimistic and almost certainly incorrect.
Whatever your views on BrianH, "correcting" his comments just so you can castigate them is a bit harsh. No? (Smiley face).
Is it just me, or has it got a bit "Lord of the Flies" in the forum recently?
Brian honors and elevates the fine art of correction. Having driven 110,000 miles, I thought I had something to add.
@T90KWH. With Bighorn and myself it's always been this way. You don't know Brian like we know him. As the self appointed grammar policeman he was real harsh at times. So I thinks he's fair game.
I don't have much experience with BrianH, but most of the more recent posts I have seen have made little sense. I also do not own a Tesla, yet, so cannot give a real world accounting of their battery life etc.
I have spent countless hours reading about LIB's and Tesla batteries in particular. Generally, LIB's are supposed to deteriorate more or less in a linear fashion. However, Panasonic seems to have found a critical mixture of battery additives which tend to slow the degradation to a crawl after about a 10% loss of range.
Now the usually stated end of life of 80%, (hotly disputed sometimes) is important to understand. It doesn't mean that the battery is useless, nor that 150 miles of range or so, is trivial. It means that the battery has crossed a threshold, which the manufacturers believe is important. Battery deterioration can begin to grow exponentially at some point below 80%. There is no exact number and every battery is unique in its' life cycle. In theory, every LIB will enter a death spiral, at some time.
So your Tesla, with the Panasonic secret sauce, appears to be good for up to 300,000 miles before crossing the 80% marker. The initial 5-10% seems to happen in the first 5 years. The rest seems to happen even slower. For some, who have supercharged a lot, this could be a lot fewer miles. I would venture a guess that 10-15 years of use would not be an unrealistic expectation. At 10 years to 80% that is about 2% of loss per year.
Once the battery passes the critical juncture, degradation escalates. Losses from 80% down to 40% can happen very quickly. The internal breakdown or end of the additive protections cause accumulations which block charging in ever increasing amounts. Each charge cycle is measurably less than the last. The final breakdown can be as little as a few weeks, once this compounding deterioration begins.
This occurs somewhere below the 80% level. The 80% factor is used because a large part of the chemical breakdown occurring with accelerated loss includes some graphite and other metal fragments. These materials can damage the separator and cause short circuits and fires. These loose materials also accumulate and prevent charge. They are all part of the same problem.
The bottom line is that sometime after crossing the 80% useful life marker, LIB's become increasingly more unstable and dangerous with each charge cycle. Risk of total failure escalates as well.
The Tesla battery has so far done most of it's loss of capacity early on, and then the drop off reduces markedly.
For instance, at 100,000 km it is at about 94-95% capacity.
The first 50,000 km it dropped about 5-6%.
The last 50,000 km it stayed about constant within 1%.
300,000 miles about 500,000 km, so even at a 1% drop per 50,000 km you can expect the capacity to be around 86-87%.https://cleantechnica.com/files/2015/05/image14-e1431849359184.jpg
Also note that the average car is driven 15,000 miles per year. This means it will take 20 years, on average, to get to 300,000 miles. Most cars jet junked before then.
OTOH the Tesla Models S and X are not just "any" car. The extensive use of Aluminum suggests that corrosion is not likely to be a life threatening issue as it is with many cars (One of my sons used to own an Alfa Romeo roadster that was so rusty that a mechanic predicted that it would soon break in half.). The electric drive units can be easily replaced. The battery pack is held on by a few bolts and can be changed out in 3 minutes or less. The software can be enhanced periodically within the limitations of the hardware on board. Some of the other hardware like sensors might be able to be updated. Such cars promise a very long useful life compared to their ICEV counterparts. That is why my Model X is in the will. 😀
What does a battery pack replacement cost? Ask someone who has done it. No one else outside of Tesla knows.
In the U.S. the average number of miles driven per year per car may be a little less than other places: 13,476 mileshttps://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm
The one battery replacement - Tesla Roadster 3.0 upgrade, includes 70kw battery, see below link for some details.
(obviously, contact Tesla directly for all details) About $400/kw
reminder: currently Tesla cars have 8 years warranty as mentioned many times.
You can also look at option prices which today are about $8500 for +15kw which is about $567/kw.
$32.48 per kWh.
@george, stop with those useful stats, I might get doe eyed.
That graph is where I actually got my number from, but I did two things you failed to notice.
1) I rounded it to make the calculation of 300,000 miles / 15,000 miles easy to do i.e. to get 20.
2) I rounded it in the direction unfavourable to my point i.e. 13,476 makes my point even more.
But more importantly, only a troll would bother to try and say that 13,476 is a better number to use than 15,000.
You troll like this on several threads and add nothing useful to those threads.
Perhaps one day you will actually try and usefully contribute, rather than trolling.
1. A Tesla with 80% battery has more range than any other car currently available. It will likely continue to be driven, if in reasonable condition,otherwise.
2. My experience with Brian H leads me to believe he should be criticized and insulted at every opportunity.