Forums

200kw model s

200kw model s

I would sign up to buy one tomorrow if it existed. If they can squeeze that many batteries into the roadster they can do it in model s.

carlk | 21 november 2017

$200,000 is OK for you?

kevincramer | 21 november 2017

Obviously yes...

jeffand | 22 november 2017

Their is battery technology out their that can make it possible to add a 200 kwh battery to any Tesla vehicle. Its just the question of when it will be moved into production. Its one thing to produce a small sample in a laboratory, verses mass producing it in a cost effective way. This most likely will require the development of new manufacturing technology.

Darren_78 | 25 november 2017

Yes, I would buy a 200 kw Model S or a battery upgrade if the price was right. I would choose a slower performing Model S to help on the cost.

An upgrade battery of 150 kw would be a nice option too.

kevincramer | 26 november 2017

yea...150kw would be enough to make me buy one too. That should be around 500 miles of range for the Model S, which is enough to allay my concerns around range+charging times.

But...now with semi announcement some are speculating there is a battery breakthru in the offing...so I think we sit tight and see what is up. They are probably being mum on it to not discourage people from buying now instead of waiting.

TeslaTap.com | 26 november 2017

A higher power S/X could be a long wait (3+ years?) and may be a very expensive. Be prepared to go into the $200K area for a 200 kWh S/X vehicle. Nothing was said about the charging times on the Roadster. It might accept the Semi's megaCharger (which appears to be a gang of 4 Superchargers or Superchargers+), but these may not be as common or in prime traveling locations. Still even on a regular Supercharger, you would get the same charging speed as a current S/X, which is quite good.

For those who have never owned an EV, having 200-300 miles of range (with current offerings) should work for most people. Range is far less of a real concern once you realize you're leaving your house each morning with a "full" tank. Trips are easy with Superchargers as you can plan to stop and charge when you want a break or to eat. Often lunch/dinner take longer than the Supercharging time.

carlk | 26 november 2017

The purpose of the 200 kWh battery is to provide enough power for the acceleration and top speed, It may or may not come to S/X but it will cost a lot if it does. It may be nice to have but like TT said it's just not needed. Not to mention it will not come for free. Not just cost of purchase but also cost of weight and space.

carlk | 26 november 2017

I also like to hear what are your "concerns" of 350 mile range car you can have now? Do you actully own one or plan to have one?

reed_lewis | 26 november 2017

I concur with carlk. It is always the non owners who always say they need 'just a little more range' from what is available. I own a 75D and have never had any issues with the range of my car. It is always capable of handling the normal driving I do on a regular basis. And for long trips, I use the Superchargers.

How often are people driving more than 300 miles in a single day?

kevincramer | 26 november 2017

OK...i'll explain the issue with range. I first note that I own two volts and a BMW i8.

I travel on business trips a common distance of 400-600 miles. I want to get there and get there fast. I dont like traffic and want to take the route i want to take....not one dictated by finding a supercharger where I still have to wait 45 minutes+ to be ready to go again.

Longer range DOES matter because "fill up" time is much longer than ICE and also "stations" are not on every corner like they are for ICE cars.

Make chargers ubiquitous and make charge time same as ICE fill ups then i agree....current range is fine. But better and more rapid way to deal with this problem is to increase range well beyond most ICE cars.

georgehawley.fl.us | 26 november 2017

Lithium ion battery weight is not an issue as far as range is concerned. Lithium ion batteries pack more than enough energy per unit weight to compensate for the added battery weight. The extra weight might be a consideration when it comes to tires and suspension components, though.

A 200 kWh battery pack would require something like 16,512 18650 cells or 11,776 2170 cells. Wouldn't fit in a Model S without a redesign.

@carlk's point about power requiredy for extreme acceleration are correct. More cells=more peak output current during a launch=greater acceleration. The Roadster will have some heavy duty power cables and fuse design.

The Roadster will accept up to about 280 kW of charging power, well beyond the capacity of today's Superchargers. Going from 20 to 80% will take more than an hour.

carlk | 26 november 2017

@kevincramer A supercharger stop for 400~600 trip that doubles as lunch/coffee stop is not a big deal. You probably would do the same when driving an ICE car for that long too. Not to mention when travle 400~600 miles and when time is of essense, such as for business trips, people always fly no matter what cars they have. Your issue is not an issue at all. Maybe for 1% of people !% of time but Tesla is not going to build a car for that small number of people's need. Need and want at two totally different things.

reed_lewis | 26 november 2017

@kevincramer Is that trip one way or round trip? If one way, then you are driving too far and could easily have taken a plane. If round trip, then a 100D would work perfectly for you.

Driving 500 miles takes at average speeds probably about 7-8 hours. That is a full day. If you are a businessman, and as you know time is money, you would be better served flying. If the trip is 400 to 600 miles total with stops in the middle, why not plan those stops around super chargers?

And as carlk, making an EV for the .1% of the population is not a viable product.

carlgo2 | 26 november 2017

People who seem to know what they are talking about say that the specs and price of the Semi indicate a breakthrough in battery design and/or production.Evidently It is big and cheap, and can be charged faster. This pretty much has to trickle down to the S and X so that people will see more value in buying one of those instead of a Model 3.

IMO the slowdown at the Gigafactory was to get this technology into production, not because of some evil robot that welds battery cases. Surely the technology for that sort of thing has been used for 100 years!

georgehawley.fl.us | 26 november 2017

@carlgo2: nice thought but my bet is on no breakthrough in battery cell production yet. Battery development is a slow roll. No one will put half-baked technology into hundreds of thousands of vehicles with 8 year warranties.. Elon might have been making up a story about battery pack manufacture in GF1 but that seems out of character. He was pretty specific about the 4 production steps and which ones had to be re-engineered. They are increasing the production rate by 3-5 times. I think that is the challenge.

Silver2K | 26 november 2017

I was told the issue is robots designed to weld aluminun are now welding steel and were not properly setup.

Al1 | 26 november 2017

Most of condo owners, apartment dwellers in urban areas are currently beyond Tesla addressable market. Tesla will have to tap that market at some point.

So range is important. And so is charging infrastructure availability.

500000 cars a year is a lot. Model 3 will have to become a car for everybody. Hopefully Tesla will have permanent sustainable solutions for urban areas within next couple of years.

Al1 | 26 november 2017

Most of condo owners, apartment dwellers in urban areas are currently beyond Tesla addressable market. Tesla will have to tap that market at some point.

So range is important. And so is charging infrastructure availability.

500000 cars a year is a lot. Model 3 will have to become a car for everybody. Hopefully Tesla will have permanent sustainable solutions for urban areas within next couple of years.

kevincramer | 2 december 2017

The idea that all executives just hop on airplanes for 400-500 mile trips is wrong. Airports take time to get to for many execs who aren't located next to one and you have to get there several hours early now etc. It's a big headache. Plus flying is not reliable...weather delays etc have caused me many problems.

Listen...i am big huge fan of Tesla and Elon, but your head is in the sand if you don't realize that range and charge times are a major issue for many people with EV's. If we get 150KW battery that alleviates a lot of the concern.

Yes...it will be expensive...so early adopters like me get the ball rolling till battery prices go down.

Earl and Nagin ... | 3 december 2017

@kevincramer,
I suspect you're a rare exception. However, would you find it worth paying $50K more to get a 500 mile per charge Model S or would you prefer a 20 minute stop at a Supercharger somewhere along the way on those occasions? How many others do you think would be willing to pay $50K more?

paul | 3 december 2017

@kevincramer,
I appreciate that you have experience with EVs, but I still want to push you on your statements.

> I travel on business trips a common distance of 400-600 miles. I want to get there and get there fast.
> I dont like traffic and want to take the route i want to take....not one dictated by finding a
> supercharger where I still have to wait 45 minutes+ to be ready to go again.

Electric cars are different to petrol cars, so if you are looking for a duplication of the experience of owning a petrol car (400 mile range, 5 minute refuel, refuelling stations every mile etc), you will not find it in an EV.

However, there are costs to that petrol experience today, such as carbon emissions, dwindling oil, playing a part in climate change etc.

If you are willing to be a little flexible:
- 200-300 mile range
- fewer refuelling stations
- refuelling takes more time
- trips need to be planned (at least to ensure there are refuelling stops).
- higher car cost
then you can enjoy the superior driving experience of an EV, and feel good about the long term impact of the decision.

When pushed into details... I've found very few people who absolutely cannot make the switch from a practical point of view, and very very few trips where EVs cannot work. In my limited experience - cost and inertia/fear are bigger factors. Normalisation of EVs (like you and I driving them), cheaper cars (coming!!!) and a second hand market will help a lot.

So let me test - are you *sure*:
- that you are going to drive 400-600 miles without a decent break for (say) lunch?
- that you can't take a few extra minutes for such a long drive?
- that you can't take a longer supercharger route?

kevincramer | 3 december 2017

"would you find it worth paying $50K more to get a 500 mile per charge"

Yes...

T35LA | 4 december 2017

@kevincramer +

I think there will still be a possibility to choose between 75, 100 or ... whatever it could be offered. So I do not see any cost concern.

Remnant | 4 december 2017

@reed_lewis (November 26, 2017)

<< ... If the trip is 400 to 600 miles total with stops in the middle, why not plan those stops around super chargers? >>

A perfectly reasonable angle.

But it doesn't mean I wouldn't like a 200 kWh battery with 10 min recharge capability. I even think we are no farther than perhaps one year from it.

SamO | 4 december 2017

@kevincramer ,

A few questions:

1. Do you drive the "two volts and a BMW i8" on these 400-600 mile trips?

2. How long does the 600-mile trips typically take?

3. Since you mention "I don't like traffic and want to take the route I want to take" where are these 600-mile routes without traffic or superchargers?

4. What city pairs do you travel between since you wrote: "stations are not on every corner like they are for ICE cars."

I have the shortest range S60 that I drove 7500 miles over 9 days. In early 2014. My experiences are slightly different than yours.

Thanks.

SamO | 4 december 2017

Sorry, should have been more clear. My route was from Los Angeles to DC and back to Los Angeles. Using Superchargers only.

bp | 5 december 2017

With the LR versions of the 3, S and X having over 300 miles of rated range, rather than continuing to add more range - which increases the cost & weight of the vehicles, Tesla would have a bigger impact by reducing the supercharging times.

There was mention of getting the charging stops down to 5-10 minutes - which isn't unreasonable after about 4 hours of driving.

Wouldn't be surprised to see Tesla follow through with Musk's earlier statement that the 100 battery pack could be the top end of the S/X family - and focus on increased supercharging speeds, along with cost reduction (to allow them to lower the S/X price and/or increase profitability).

georgehawley.fl.us | 5 december 2017

@bp: Tesla imposes a limit on max. charging current per cell, presumably to reduce heat-induced stress on the cells and to cap the battery pack cooling system capacity requirement. The charging voltage per cell is 4.2 volts.

The maximum charging power is no. Of cells times 4.2 volts times max. Charging current. Tesla cars won't charge any faster than that. Example: 100 kWh pack with 8,256 18650 cells with Max. Charging current of 4 amps. Max. charging rate = 8256 times 4.2 times 4 = 138.7 kW.

carlgo2 | 6 december 2017

300 honest, fast miles and a wide choice of fast charging stations would do it for me. I would miss that under two seconds to sixty time though : {