This is the best car in the world despite the small flows

This is the best car in the world despite the small flows

*Updated post to get through the new thread block. Update on 3/19/2019*

I have been enjoying my SR+ for 3 days and 354 miles now. My average will be actually higher when I start using the car for work after installing the 220 charger tomorrow. I bought the model 3 with hesitations regarding Tesla's knowledge of building cars but the gas saving mean that I'm driving a super nice and comfortable car for free. I'm extremely impressed with what I got however.

I have been in the used car business since 2012 now, I'm familiar with what looks good but is horribly made "VW" and what's actually good. I have seen all kinds of cars in different conditions and mileages at Auto auctions. I do work on my cars as much as speed and cost requires to be able to flip as fast as possible. I'm also an engineer and a car enthusiast since as early as I can remember.

The soundproofing is impressive and efficient, the car looks bare bones but it's an intelligent thick foam with deep carpeting that looks premium as well.

The front wheel suspension setup is a double wishbone just like I like with no camber changes with wheel motion, which allows for safer hard cornering on uneven surfaces unlike the McPherson setup on say BMW. However, the strut mount is integrated into the upper control arm which provides the torsional rigidity and ease of removal of the strut "McPherson" suspension.

The dashboard design and interior are extremely practical and well thought out. The lid for the compartment under the screen is designed in a way that doesn't allow stuff to fall and get trapped if the lid is halfway open. Everything is located in the most convenient location.

The range in the city is higher than shown. Given that I drive and not autopilot but we'll get to that disaster later. Chill mode, sport steering. That's the recipe.

The issues I've had so far:

A ding unnoticeable by me with the experience I have, despite being told about it and its location by the delivery specialist before the appointment "and given the option to delay delivery till fixed or fixed later, of course I choose the latter". Really good work by the delivery guys picking up that fault.

The paint needs a buff, and there are 3 tiny particulates that dried on the clear "will be taken care of later by Tesla as well"

The seals are a little wavy at some spots but no wind noise issues.

Since the software upgrade that got me 30 days autopilot free trial the screen has been freezing every once in a while, nothing a reset can't fix. I'm happy to report that the vehicle's main functionality as a car remains unaffected, you don't get a speedometer though.

The charging port didn't unlock at the supercharger, there's a rubber piece with a wire attached to it "looks more like a mic than a latch" inside the trunk that you pull on and it manually unlocks.

Now Autopilot, it simply doesn't work for me. It brakes too late, accelerates initially too slow then too fast, brakes from far away in a way that seems ubrupt, it swerves after a minute almost every time I turn it on. I'm so disappointed that I wanna opt out of the autopilot trial just to get back my good ole cruise control. It doesn't seem to have improved since my last trial in Miami in a P90D when they first came out.

My only explanation is that I'm taking it to unfamiliar territory because I drive around pickups and crossovers where I'm at in Virginia Beach. The reason why I say this is because everyone is praising it while I'm loathing it from every crash that I had to avoid. I really wanna do the work and put my streets on the Tesla autopilot neural map but it's so annoying and attention demanding I need to be getting paid for this.

Overall very impressed, and if you're shorting Tesla and laughing at the suckers who believe in the company's success despite all the issues that they are dealing with you just need to put your prejudice aside and hop in a model 3.


This was a different post about fsd with 72 replies relevant to that subject and I changed it to post my review after getting the car. Original post for comments continuity:

Tesla "full self-driving" guarantee

It would make sense that if you pay for FSD now, before the feature is activated, you will be entitled to it whenever it's available technically and legally regardless of any potential required hardware upgrades. Now if you don't pay for it and it says $4000 after delivery, does that oblige Tesla to provide you with the feature when available at that price? I don't wanna pay for something that I know for sure will be bipartisanly ferociously fought by unions "liberals" and the anti-progress old folks "conservatives" and will probably take a few years after being available technically to become legal.

SCCRENDO | 30 december 2017

Was there any way rationale to your anti liberal rant? If you don’t want to pay for something not yet available don’t. Just pay the extra $1000 when it arrives later or just don’t buy it.

adoh2010 | 30 december 2017

Lets wait for whoever is gonna come in here and say "anti-conservative rant", that would be hilarious. The question here is, will Tesla be obligated to provide me with FSD for the $1000 extra or can they upcharge me whenever it arrives whether because they need to add extra hardware and/or because of the novelty and earning potential of an electronic chauffeur?

burdogg | 30 december 2017

That $4000 price is not guaranteed to stay $4,000 by the way. If down the road, they find more would have to be added, then they could A) nix the option to upgrade to FSD if you had not done so yet or B) charge $10,000 to upgrade.

If you choose not to buy it at time of the car, they have no obligation to still offer it down the road, or keep it at the same price as when you could have gotten it - no contract etc... was ever entered into - it was just an option that you passed on, and Tesla therefore can do whatever they like with that option down the road :)

adoh2010 | 30 december 2017

That's the comment I was looking for. So you're signing a contract when you get FSD and they have it guaranteed but you're not signing on the post-delivery activation fee. I guess my Tesla just got $8k more expensive...

burdogg | 30 december 2017

Well...I am not sure on that :) I bought FSD with my X and my personal opinion is - either they have to refund my money or make my car FSD :) That is just my opinion - so there is no guarantee if bought up front, but I think you have a much better case - especially with all the S and X's that have paid for it as well. But if you don't get it up front, then I don't see how you really have any say :)

So to me, it is still risky as I didn't sign any "contract" per se, but it is listed as a selected paid for option. I don't think anyone knows exactly how it will pan out if Tesla fails to deliver - so I would hate to mislead you on that.

Hope that makes sense :) (None of us really know how Tesla will handle it for those that paid for it if things go awry)

hoffmannjames | 30 december 2017

@adoh2010 As I understand it, if a consumer pays for a product then they are entitled to receive that product and if they don't pay for the product, then they are not entitled to receive that product. In the case of FSD, the moment you pay for it, before or after delivery, you become entitled to get whatever FSD features Tesla does release to the public. And I have no doubt that when Tesla does release an OTA update with FSD features, customers who paid for it, will get the update.

The key is that Tesla gets to decide when and what to release to the public. We have no guarantee and no way of knowing what we will get or when we will get it. Tesla may wait until the FSD system is feature complete and the system has passed federal regulations and then release it as one big system. Or, Tesla may release FSD features incrementally, piece by piece over time. Alternatively, Tesla could say that they are still working on it and we could wait years and still not get anything. Of course, I have to believe that if Tesla were unable to provide FSD that there would be tremendous legal pressure to reimburse customers who paid for FSD in advance. But as long as Tesla can realistically claim that FSD is "coming soon", they could probably delay releasing it for a long time.

I do think that as time goes by, the pressure to release something to paying customers will increase. Tesla owners are incredibly loyal and patient but even they have their limits. At some point, these customers will demand to get something for the FSD money that they paid. At that point, Tesla may be forced to release something, just to placate paying customers. There is also the economic reality that other car companies are working on FSD. When other cars start showing up with FSD, there will definitely be pressure on Tesla to release their FSD version. Otherwise, customers could start looking at these other car companies as viable alternatives.

burdogg | 30 december 2017

Here is a tweet from Elon musk about a year ago - obviously things have NOT gone as planned, but this tweet does show that they plan on releasing things incrementally - or at least they did. :
"At what point will "Full Self-Driving Capability" features noticeably depart from "Enhanced Autopilot" features?"
Elon - "3 months maybe, 6 months definitely"
12 months still and no difference between the two :) But I do believe they will release pieces at a time - like Stop sign recognition (A FSD feature, NOT EAP feature).

hoffmannjames | 30 december 2017

@burdogg I agree that releasing FSD features incrementally would be the best strategy. For one, waiting until FSD is feature complete and passes all regulation would take way too long. Second, releasing features incrementally would allow Tesla to show some progress, create some positive publicity, and give paying customers something to actually use. I think stop sign recognition would be a very cool feature. I imagine Tesla owners would be very happy with that. Plus, I imagine it would create some good buzz in the press as various media outlets would run stories about this cool new feature that Tesla cars have that others cars don't have.

burdogg | 30 december 2017

Yeah - I am trying to be patient :) Not sure what differences between EAP and FSD he was referencing, but stop lights and stop signs is one of the biggest differences, so hoping that comes soon - but they of course need to get speed limit sign recognition happening first (AP 1 works fantastic for that, EAP - not at all, completely based of GPS which is off a lot of times)

Daryl | 30 december 2017

I wish the strategy and timing was clear. I don't think I'm going to pay at this time, but if I thought new features would be dribbled out within a few months I might be tempted.

Madatgascar | 30 december 2017

I would not expect FSD features to come dribbling out over time. Autonomous driving will be regulated in terms of its overall capability (levels 3, 4, and 5), and there is significant concern about increasing the reliability of a Level 4 system without getting all the way to Level 5 FSD. This is because humans are inherently very bad at monitoring highly reliable systems, and we get worse as the systems get better. Tesla is already far enough along that the next leap probably needs to be all the way to the finish line. Unless we are talking about improved Summon or other minor tweaks.

charles.a.braun | 30 december 2017

My hope is that the price may actually come down over time. When we bought our software limited S60 the cost to unlock the full 75 was $9,000 if we did so at purchase / $10,000 to unleash it later. (Maybe it was $8000/$9000 but still IMO was not worth it.)

Then a few months later it dropped to $7000. Still not worth it IMO.

Then a few months later it dropped to $5000. Still not worth in IMO.

Then a few months later it dropped to $2000. We snapped it up and 5 minutes later we had an S75 which I thought was worth the $2000. I would have been pissed, as I am sure many were, if I had paid, 9, 7, or $5000 days weeks or months earlier but I realize that is the way the free market works.

Those of us the opted out of FSD with the understanding that it would be $4000 to enable a few years from now, when it is ready and legal, may well be pissed if the cost is upped to 5, 8, $10000 instead of the $4000 we were told while configuring. Or those that paid $3000 for it may well be pissed if we are able to scoop it up one day for 1, 2 or $3000 ourselves.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 31 december 2017

There will be no 'dribbling out' of anything specifically labeled as an 'FSD Feature'. Everything about EAP is a subset of FSD. EAP will steadily improve over time, to a point.

I consider EAP to be a Level 3 Autonomated Driving System (ADS). Others may call it an Advanced Driver Assistance System (ADAS), or Level 2 instead, depending on their point of view. I expect Tesla will skip Level 4 ADS and that their ultimate goal is Level 5 ADS, which will be actual FSD. You can see the details here...

· Level 0 -- The human driver does all the driving.
· Level 1 -- An advanced driver assistance system (ADAS) on the vehicle can sometimes assist the human driver with either steering or braking/accelerating, but not both simultaneously.
· Level 2 -- An advanced driver assistance system (ADAS) on the vehicle can itself actually control both steering and braking/accelerating simultaneously under some circumstances. The human driver must continue to pay full attention (“monitor the driving environment”) at all times and perform the rest of the driving task.
· Level 3 -- An Automated Driving System (ADS) on the vehicle can itself perform all aspects of the driving task under some circumstances. In those circumstances, the human driver must be ready to take back control at any time when the ADS requests the human driver to do so. In all other circumstances, the human driver performs the driving task.
· Level 4 -- An Automated Driving System (ADS) on the vehicle can itself perform all driving tasks and monitor the driving environment – essentially, do all the driving – in certain circumstances. The human need not pay attention in those circumstances.
· Level 5 -- An Automated Driving System (ADS) on the vehicle can do all the driving in all circumstances. The human occupants are just passengers and need never be involved in driving.

I Wanna Go Fast | 1 januari 2018

FSD sounds like level 3 to me on - the driver needs to respond to the vehicles request to intervene. Here is the key section from that link:

"The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver’s seat...
Your Tesla will figure out the optimal route, navigate urban streets (even without lane markings), manage complex intersections with traffic lights, stop signs and roundabouts, and handle densely packed freeways with cars moving at high speed. When you arrive at your destination, simply step out at the entrance and your car will enter park seek mode, automatically search for a spot and park itself."

The only assumption I'm making is that park seek mode will only available on private property.

hoffmannjames | 1 januari 2018

I disagree. The text says "no action required by the driver". So the text is describing a system where the car can go from A to B without human intervention. That sounds like Level 4 to me. Also, the FSD video shows the car using park seek mode in a parking lot so it won't just be for private properties.

weluvm3 | 1 januari 2018

Even if it was able to park itself in a parking space, I wonder if one could trust it not to park someplace where it shouldn’t. For example, spaces which were a time limited space, residents only, restricted to certain businesses, handicapped, or too close to a truck with wide deiver’s side doors?

kzodz | 1 januari 2018

If you pay for FSD they must deliver a car that is capable of achieving that goal. They believe that this hardware is capable of it. But if / when the laws regarding autonomous cars are made and they include extra tech like car 2 car wifi Tesla would not have to upgrade those components. They can say that they have a car that is capable of FSD, but not a car that is legally certified to do so under new laws. Until they offer something in writing it would be a huge mistake to assume what they will do.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 1 januari 2018

I Wanna Go Fast: No. Elon Musk has said from the very outset that Autopilot is NOT fully autonomous. I was no further than 35 feet away from him when he said this on stage on October 9, 2014. FSD will do... more.

hoffmanjames: I concur. Though I believe Tesla will skip Level 4 in favor of Level 5. They might develop something internally that might qualify as Level 4 in testing, but not be released for public use until it operates as Level 5.

weluvm3: Indications have been the camera systems used currently 'see' in monochrome. It may be some time before the differences between parking spaces and curb markings that are white, red, green, yellow, or blue are accounted for... In the meantime, perhaps the driver could take over when their destination is in a location with sketchy, faded, or non-standard markings and signage. You know, like parking at the rear of old bars and shopping centers, or the curving hillsides and cul de sacs in a cemetery.

I would love it if a portion of AI were dedicated to not parking near, beside, or between unsavory battleaxe vehicles. Old cars of massive size covered with dents or dings. The kind that look like run-what-ya-brung entrants to a demolition derby. Or at the very least, the ability to specify a preference for 'dingless' parking as far away from other vehicles as possible on the premises.

Darryl | 1 januari 2018

If you buy it now, yes you are guaranteed. There is no guarantee they will not increase the price at a later date for those who have not purchased the option.

weluvm3 | 1 januari 2018

But there is no guarantee when FSD will be offered for the Model 3. I wonder if they will refund the money upon request if the delay is longer than expected?

I Wanna Go Fast | 1 januari 2018

@hoffmannjames, level 3 can still drive A to B without any action if things go nominally. If it was level 4, the website would say it can drive without anybody behind the wheel or in the car.

@ReD, not sure what you're saying no to... or why the out of context reference to 2014 / autopilot 1.

ReD eXiLe ms us | 1 januari 2018

I Wnna Go Fast: The point is that FSD will be Level 5. Period. No need for human interaction at all, in any situation.

hoffmannjames | 1 januari 2018

I Wanna Go Fast | January 1, 2018
@hoffmannjames, level 3 can still drive A to B without any action if things go nominally. If it was level 4, the website would say it can drive without anybody behind the wheel or in the car.

First, Tesla and Elon Musk have already defined FSD as Level 4/5 so why would we assume it really means level 3?

Second, a driver can still be present, just as a passenger, in level 4/5. So the fact that the website mentions a person in the driver's seat could still be describing level 4/5. The difference is that with level 3 a driver is required but with level 4/5 a driver is optional. The website is describing a car that can completely go from A to B without human intervention. That is more likely to be describing level 4/5 since level 3 would still require the driver to intervene in most cases.

Haggy | 1 januari 2018

Tesla is advertising the upgrade at $4000 so they would have to honor it if you took them up on it. That remains true until they stop advertising it at that price. They might give advanced notice of a price increase or they might not. They can set the price at whatever they want. It's not likely that it will go below what people paid who prepaid.

SamO | 1 januari 2018


I was 25 feet from Elon when he said Autopilot was not FSD ;-)

I purchased FSD on my Model 3 and am looking forward to Tesla Network. Got a taste of the Autopilot 2 with Autosteer (beta) and auto lane change.

Come over and I'll give you some seat time.

2015P90DI | 1 januari 2018

I'd be happy with Level 3. While they are developing level 4/5 autonomy, I'm betting that due to too many politicians having their input on the decisions to approve full autonomous driving, that Tesla will have no choice but to release it as Level 3 so it has a chance to prove itself in real world situations with a driver there as backup.

I'd be more than happy with that as I think just about every other Tesla owner would. Certainly if that means getting it activated sooner. In reality, seems to make more sense to do it that way anyway. Certainly there's no way to program a car to be prepared for EVERY single possible scenario that could come up. Having a driver mandatory as backup in the early going should convince law makers to allow the technology to be activated sooner. Otherwise, we're likely years and years away from enough testing being done to convince them to approve Level 4/5.

It's certainly a complex system. How long has Google been working on their autonomous car? I think much longer than Tesla and they probably have more resources available to them. Even with that, they still haven't been able to release their version of it. It's not easy. Might even be more difficult than rocket science. If we base it on the fact that Elon managed to build rockets faster than he did an autonomous car!

ReD eXiLe ms us | 1 januari 2018

SamO: Next time I'm in Los Angeles I may take you up on that.

I was to your right, a bit closer to 'the robot' that night, trying to keep warm in one of the lounge areas next to a pedestal heater. ;-)

SamO | 1 januari 2018


Tesla has billions of miles, while Google still has millions of miles. They used to be ahead. And now they are not.

The release of features is dependent on Federal and State law, but a state or locality can green-light autonomy and Tesla can activate the features when they are satisfied. Tesla would be complying with their promises if Phoenix allows level 5, even if you can't drive to Vegas.


Come on Cletus . . . you'll walk over, but you're limping back.

Carl Thompson | 2 januari 2018

"Tesla has billions of miles, while Google still has millions of miles."

You can't even compare the two. Google's miles are actual, real-world self-driving miles. Tesla's miles are simply the car watching _you_ drive but not driving itself. Very, very different.

Madatgascar | 2 januari 2018

@Carl Thompson, Tesla had over 300 million miles of AutoPilot data WITH auto steer and TACC activated. Real-world self-driving miles. That was of November 2016, so it's probably more than double that by now.

Carl Thompson | 2 januari 2018

"Tesla had over 300 million miles of AutoPilot data WITH auto steer and TACC activated. Real-world self-driving miles."

No. Autopilot is not even close to "real-world self-driving miles." My BMW has TACC. Does that make it a self-driving car?

bp | 3 januari 2018

Tesla hasn't made any official statements on what FSD means - or what happens should they determine hardware changes (processor, sensors) to get FSD certified or if they find out AP 2.x cars can never get certified for FSD. We also don't know if Tesla will maintain the $4K post-sale activation price, or if that price will go up or go down when they get FSD operating.

Our Purchase Agreement only mentions that we purchased the Full Self Driving Capability for $3K - it doesn't document what that means, and the agreement has the typical legal term making any statements made outside of the agreement non-binding (which would include anything posted on the Tesla website or tweets by Musk).

Despite this uncertainty, we purchased EAP/FSD on our S 100D in March and plan to do the same with our Model 3 (which clearly isn't going to make the projected Nov 17-Jan 18 delivery window). Tesla has the only cars on the market today that have the possibility of supporting FSD without having to purchase a new car - which is why we're willing to place the $3K bet on both cars that Tesla will get FSD working - eventually...

Madatgascar | 3 januari 2018

@Carl Thompson, no, TACC would not make it self-driving. The 300 million mile statistic was for both TACC and Autosteer active, which I'll grant you is not as close to FSD as Google's cars, but is not just "watching _you_ drive" as you say above.

accentcreate | 4 januari 2018

While waiting for FSD/EAP, it might be a good idea to take some driving lessons, practice some defensive driving skills and just basically just use your own human capacity to drive better and safer.
Are we, as a society, really becoming that lazy that we can't even stay in control of our own vehicles?

hoffmannjames | 4 januari 2018

accentcreate | January 4, 2018

"While waiting for FSD/EAP, it might be a good idea to take some driving lessons, practice some defensive driving skills and just basically just use your own human capacity to drive better and safer.
Are we, as a society, really becoming that lazy that we can't even stay in control of our own vehicles?"

Sure. Of course, people should still learn good driving skills. But the reality is that some people won't make the effort, perhaps out of laziness. Some people will always be bad drivers no matter how many driving lessons they take. Some accidents will still happen even with good drivers. And there are some driving scenarios, like commuting to work in busy traffic, that people have to do but do not enjoy. For all those reasons, FSD still makes sense even if people should still try to be better drivers.

weluvm3 | 4 januari 2018

People might use EAP and/or FSD to keep themselves between the lanes so they don't get stopped.

That won't necessarily make them any less likely to get into trouble If they are nodding off with their hands still on the wheel.

This car needs a mode where the car occasionally tested the driver to check reaction times and awareness.

Haggy | 4 januari 2018

It would be hard for Tesla to enforce clauses that make the parts outside of the agreement non-binding, especially since they'd still amount to false advertising if Tesla doesn't live up to them, plus the fact that the link to my purchase agreement on the website didn't work until after I placed my order, and Tesla first sent me that agreement after I placed the order and paid a non-refundable deposit.

Haggy | 4 januari 2018

"TACC would not make it self-driving. "

That's not the relevant part. What's relevant is that cars with the appropriate hardware can be running software that would predict what FSD would do, even if it doesn't actively do anything. That information could be compared to what the car actually does.

"This car needs a mode where the car occasionally tested the driver to check reaction times and awareness."

It already does that with autopilot, and it nags drivers far more than the Model S does. Hopefully Tesla will use the internal camera the way GM does to make sure that the driver is watching the road, and then they can get rid of the annoying nags.

eeb9 | 4 januari 2018

My internal camera will be immediately covered with tape on delivery....
But that’s an entirely different topic! ;-)

Shock | 4 januari 2018

"Now if you don't pay for it and it says $4000 after delivery, does that oblige Tesla to provide you with the feature when available at that price?"

When has a business ever guaranteed, in perpetuity, the price of something if you don't buy it now?

Beagle | 4 januari 2018

Any guesses if "some" of the features of FSD might be used to improve the EAP experience before levels 4 or 5 are actually reached &/or certified?

ReD eXiLe ms us | 6 januari 2018

Haggy is correct.

Beagle: I'm not sure what 'indication' you are looking for... At least one, and possibly three or four, participants in this conversation have decided that Elon Musk is an outright liar at worst and untrustworthy at best. I personally take his statements as 'official' and others dismiss them every time I bring them up either because they 'want to see it in writing' or because they have decided I am a 'blind cultist' or 'Tesla cheerleader'.

I expect FSD will be Level 5 Autonomy. Every single component of EAP, which I feel qualifies as Level 3 Autonomy, is necessarily a subset of FSD. Tesla has no obligation to refer to any improvements to EAP as a 'feature of EAP' and I believe they shouldn't. Because people will ignore hearing the 'feature of' phrase, pay no attention to stated limitations, and treat it as if it is Level 5 anyway... eventually to disastrous effect. Better to simply make gradual improvements to EAP, where it performs certain known tasks better in the fleet, and set those changes in stone relative to internal testing results of more advanced features.

Madatgascar | 6 januari 2018

@ReD, I think you mean “feature of FSD”... in which case I fully agree

bayareakid2008 | 6 januari 2018

You're burning your money if you pay for the FSD right now. Might be able to get it back later on via lawsuit, but your Model 3 will likely never be capable of FSD. Even after Tesla perfects the tech, it will still take years for the laws to catch up.

bayareakid2008 | 6 januari 2018

You're burning your money if you pay for the FSD right now. Might be able to get it back later on via lawsuit, but your Model 3 will likely never be capable of FSD. Even after Tesla perfects the tech, it will still take years for the laws to catch up.

chris.pribe | 6 januari 2018

Nah. It's a race between nations -- I'll take the risk.

hoffmannjames | 6 januari 2018

@bayareakid2008 I disagree that it will take years for laws to approve FSD. Some States like California are already moving forward with legislation for FSD.

ron369 | 6 januari 2018

Doesn’t Waymo already have FSD cars (level 4) in operation in Arizona? I don’t know if the cars are allowed to drive yet without a Waymo employee supervising, but it seems that once the cars are deemed ready, it won’t be long before laws are enacted to enable them. I think everyone sees self driving cars as the future, and wants to be a part of that future. The key is having cars that are actually ready, and I have serious doubts that Tesla is anywhere near as close as they say they are. I was originally planning on purchasing FSD with my Model 3, but unless I hear news on its progress between now and when I’m ready to configure (Mar-May estimate), I think I will hold off.

SamO | 6 januari 2018

FSD is already here and inside my car. All the amateur engineers can stuff it.

Hope I get first crack at Tesla Network.


rxlawdude | 6 januari 2018

@bayareakid, please provide us the details of your EXPERTISE to forecast that "Model 3 will likely never be capable of FSD."

Seriously. Or is this an OPINION couched as fact?