But I guess Audi is still doing well?
I'm going to be a Model S owner soon, but currently a Panamera owner and still will be after I get my MS. Panamera sales has slowed down mainly for two reasons. I'm getting this from two sources. First, Panamera has been out for a while now and everyone and anyone that has the money and wanted one, has one. Second, the new model is coming out this year and has just reached dealerships.
I'm not surprised and I say this as a current Porsche owner. Wait until next year when Model X takes on Cayenne which has been the biggest seller and cash cow for Porsche. Audi and Porsche are both owned by VW now. I can even see the possibility of Porsche going back to its root as a sports car only company and Audi be the luxury sedan and SUV maker.
I think Panamera is the most direct comparison to MS so far.
Porsche is also coming out with the Panamera hybrid with 75mpg. I wonder how that will do against the MS...
No Hybrid offers the Tesla grin.......
Once one has driven the MS there is no going back....
I am just waiting for mine and I sure will be waiting outside of my local Porsche dealership to offer some test rides.
The Panamera is Porsche's number one product in China. China is Porsche's Number 2 market after North America, they expect it to be No.1 by 2020.
As far as performance, price point, look and size I believe the Panamera is most comparable. Interestingly, CNBC commissioned Edmonds to fleshout a "picture" of the prototypical Model S costomer, which eerily aligns with the average Panamera customer. So the theory has some weight.
Actually, it is the reverse: Porsche owns 50.73% of the VW Group voting rights. (VW, Audi, Lambo, Skoda, Seat, Bentley, Bugatti, etc. are more or less owned by Porsche, you could say)
Was looking at the Panamera - am driving a 2009 Carrera S cab. Test drove a Tesla. My P85 is scheduled for delivery Sept 21. My Porsche sold in 1 1/2 days (had to promise the buyer a ride in the Tesla).
As far as I'm concerned it was no contest. Panamera is really large, very cluttered cabin, and didn't match the performance of the S (unless I want to drive 160 mph).
I really hope you follow up with some posts about your Pana after you have had some time in your MS. I thought they would have to pry my Maranello from my cold dead fingers. I was wrong. All they had to do was give me a MS and the yellow car gets no love. I suspect you may have the same reaction.
"Volkswagen AG purchased 49.9% of the shares in Porsche Zwischenholding GmbH (the holding company of Porsche AG) in December 2009. Volkswagen AG purchased the remaining stake in Porsche AG equaling 100% of the shares in Porsche Zwischenholding GmbH, effectively becoming its parent company as of 1 August 2012."
Porsche did try to buy VW in 2007 and was in the process of doing that. The global financial crises made it hard to serve the debt for money borrowed to buy VW. It ended up VW bought Porsche instead. Just a side note Porsche was the world's most profitable auto company in 2007. The made even more profits than the much bigger Toyota. You can tell Elon has Porsche in the bulls eye when he said he wants to get Tesla's margin similar to Porsche's.
Hmmmm. Sounds like a rough road ahead for Porsche. Does anybody know how to trade options for Porsche or VW in the US?
+1 lola - my 430 Spyder is up for sale. I've owned Ferrari's for over 10 years and I thought I would for life. It's just no longer fun to drive compared to my P85.
JZ13... who'd of thought?
The PANAMERA is the better all around car
looks-performance-interior even though you'll spend an extra 25k for it.
Panamera sales would of course be down the car is 4 years old just like MS sales will be down 3 years from now. MS is a great car but not in the top tier of the PANAMERA line up TURBO OR TURBO S.
The Panamera does not seat 5 people - that was a deal killer for me…I routinely haul 5 people in my Model S…
also the Turbo is almost twice the price of a Model S…
Stories like yours make me marvel at what I own. I have never owned a Ferrari, and I made a promise to myself, that if my current venture is a success, I'd gift myself a Ferrari in a couple of years. Now, I might wait for the Tesla supercar. I sincerely hope they are working on it.
What I find really amusing is when people compare the Panamera to the Model S they forget about the fact that the Panamera is basically a street legal race car. You're simply not going to see most of the performance/handling benefits of the Panamera on the street.
It's a car for those that don't want any compromises in terms of handling versus comfort. To get better comfort you just adjust the suspension setting. There is no floaty feeling when you're coming off an onramp in ANY of the Panamera's like there is with the S60/S85/P85 (there are all kinds of reviews of this and the only Tesla MS that fully fixes it is the P85+, but it does so by compromising comfort since there is no PASM option).
The Panamera won't start reducing power after only 1 or 2 laps like the Tesla.
The Panamera is available with seats that will actually hold you in while you're on a race track.
Of course most people don't want or desire a street legal race car to haul their families around in. They just want the impression that they're in a fast car and hence the insane focus on 0-60 times, and quick drama free acceleration.
What I love about the Tesla MS is it's getting people out of cars they have NO BUSINESS being in. If you can't understand what a Porsche is then you shouldn't even drive it. The same goes with the BMW M5.
The Tesla is a great car that offers handling/performance that the average person can appreciate. You don't have to pretend the back of the car doesn't exist because it's too ugly for your mind to comprehend (the Porsche Panamera).
The one key thing Tesla is missing is the All-Wheel Drive. That's why it hasn't really been able to pull sales from Audi.
@ theking - you are incorrect sir. I have 1st hand knowledge that a P85 will blow away a Panamera Turbo (not a Turbo S) off the line. Nothing more funny than listening to his beast of an exhaust while watching him in my side-view mirror. In order for the Panamera to keep up with the P85 he would have to use his launch control which is not something most people think of at a stoplight nor is it great on the clutch. I didn't need launch control. :) Also, the Panamera is not an all around better car. It's not as safe, requires more maintenance, is much more expensive to operate and has much less passenger and cargo room. And not as quick off the line. Yes, the Panamera Turbo would beat the P85 on the track, but I don't track my daily driver. And most people I know hate the ass of the Panamera. The Model S gets more attention for its styling around Newport Beach than the Panamera does.
@redshift - glad to hear! And I agree with you that I can't wait for a Tesla exotic to be produced. Ferrari's CEO Montezemolo recently proclaimed Ferrari will never make a pure BEV. That was unfortunate because he's blind to the future of auto propulsion.
As a funny side-note, as I was changing my password at work today I had to answer security questions. One of them was: "What is your favorite car?" I laughed because for many years it has been Ferrari. I typed in "Tesla" on purpose - knowing that it was the wrong answer for the computer. But it was the right answer for me. Haha
@nick - thank you for once again showcasing your intelligence level. Obviously there are more Panamera's on the road because they have sold hundreds of thousands over many years.
I have a 2010 Panamera 4S. Last week my son and I drove over to Tesla and drove the P85.
My son bought the P85. Traded in his Evora. The MS fit and finish is no where near the Panamera's
I pointed it out to my son and could tell from his expression it did not matter much to him.
My wife on the other hand agrees the two are in the same price class but the TESLA is no match for the Panamera's fit and finish. Driving home in the Panamera it felt old school technology. BTW for some reason I can't quite understand driving down from Greenwich CT to South Beach FL in the Panamera I averaged 31.8 MPG.
Personally, I wouldn't as much as spit on a Porsche Panamera if I was given one. I suppose this places my Model S Sig. Perf. Plus above the Panamera, doesn't it? At least for me, the guy in a position to make either choice.
you won't win a race against any PANAMERA TURBO or TURBO S in P85
i'm sure you raced a v-6 version or GTS version (they have the loud exhaust)
EVEN WITHOUT LAUNCH CONTROL ON 0-60 IS 4.0 and with LC you'll do 3.6-3.7
and 1/4 mile is 11.5 so sorry your info and reality are 2 different animals.
the panamera is "superior" in every way. Ask anyone who has actually has seat time in both
...and i'm sure there are plenty of people who wouldn't as much spit on a MS
not sure the point you were making.
Model s outselling Panamera is a problem for Porsche, but not near as much a problem that X will be. Half of Posche's sales are Cayennes. With its low center of gravity, Model X will be much more drivable than the Cayenne. I believe it will be a big problem for Porsche.
To the Panamera advocates on this thread:
It is a phony argument to say that Panamera is 4 years old, hence the lower sales. If it is truly superior to Model S, it should continue to beat the competition.
The truth is that market has spoken; please accept it and get over it.
@king - trust me, I have driven both cars. Here in Newport Beach Panamera's are a dime a dozen. It was most definitely a turbo as I pulled up next to him I made a note of it. The turbo has 0 to 60 in 4.0 with launch control. The model S will do it in 3.9. I know a handful of people here who had Panamera's and have traded them in for model S. The Panamera was an awesome car for its time. But it's time has passed.
wrong 3.7 and 11.5
facts are facts and just maybe the guy driving the all wheel drive PANAMERA wasn't trying. i know of one down in lajolla that would be willing to race ya in a drag at the track. just straight line 1/4 mile race.
also you state: you find the P85 more FUN than your 430??
please post that on ferrarichat and see the responses you get.
have a good 1
Most of us drive in the real world and not on a track; nor are we professional drivers and have the skill or ability to get the 'published' 0-60 times in high end ICE cars. Indeed, very few can. This is in stark contrast to the P85, where any idiot like me can replicate the Motor trend time of 4.0s. Thus, in real world driving with Joe Average driver, the Panamera Turbo will get toasted by the P85 time and time gain. Reaction time is critical in real world driving and the instant torque of a P85 just cannot be beat. Tracks are different, but the vast majority of us drive in the real world and are more than happy beating unsuspecting high end ICE with our instant torque.
JZ - +1. My colleague took me for a ride in his Panamera Turbo S last year. As impressed as I was by the luxury finish (especially compared to our other colleague's spartan GT3) and crazy slick performance, I was blown away by how ugly it was from the side and back. Even my buddy had to admit that he was forced to compromise between really wanting a Porsche but having two kids. "It looks amazing from the front!" is what I consoled him with.
Fast forward to a few months ago, our buddy took us for a test drive in his P85+... and my colleague is selling his Panamera Turbo S, already has his deposit down for an arrest-me-red P85+ of his own. Another statistic :)
mdemetri - +1. I am definitely one of those idiots lacking the skill to pull off the published best times. For old times' sake I tried a launch control 0-60 on my friend's 2013 M5... not pretty.
Even some pros like lolachampcar and Leillani are in love with the MS. Check out Bill's youtube video clips from past threads, it's pretty insane.
Yes, sir. You're totally right. I stand corrected.
S4WRXTTCS said "What I love about the Tesla MS is it's getting people out of cars they have NO BUSINESS being in. If you can't understand what a Porsche is then you shouldn't even drive it. The same goes with the BMW M5."
Pretentious twat. Just sayin'.
ZERO % chance you will win on street/track straight line in a 1/4 mile race with P85vs TURBO Panamera
no matter if JEFF GORDON was driving the P85 against "joe average in a PANAMERA
it's AWD and hooks up faster and then it's bye-bye
facts are facts
That Panamera Turbo gets a pretty lousy 15 mpg. Who cares how fast it is on the track, real world driving In the US isn't going to need most of that power anyway.
The King of Porsche lovers :)
Hey, they are great cars. You've just got a whole new crop of people (including some Porsche owners) that have had "issues" with Porsche drivers for years now in a position to do something about them. As many have pointed out, all you have to do in a P85 is have creep off, rest your foot over the accelerator and stomp it with normal reflexes when the light turns green. One of the single biggest advantages MS has is it gets off the line sooooo fast. No delay for throttle butterflies, clutch take up, rubber driveline isolation bushing wind up or any of the other things that slow ICE response. The big fat heavy monster just jumps off the line like my rat terrier after a bone! The contest is settled before it has much of a chance to start.
Oh, and did I mention the traction control blows away ANY ICE. Go back and look at the very fine rubber dust the car leaves on the road and frequency of slip correction (looks like really small lines on the road with very close spacing). It is fantastic that they can adjust power that quickly.
first off the model S is a FANTASTIC car and one of the best overall sedans on the road today
even better than most costing much more $.
As has been said before the fact it can be compared to the Panamera turbo is great news for TESLA
24 MPG HWY
real world driving vs P85 0-30 mph = dead heat (slight edge to the PANAMERA)
0-60 mph= PANAMERA turbo wins 3.6 3.7 vs 3.9 4.2
1/4 mile PANAMERA turbo wins by at least 2-3 car lengths is more than second faster 11.4 11.6 vs 12.4 12.6
it's a PDK transmission and AWD you don't feather the clutch or feather the gas to get out of the hole like most ICE cars so there is very little chance for driver error
it hooks up VIOLENTLY right away... you just mash the pedal like in the MS
As has been said numerous times in just about every publication the PANAMERA turbo line
is the fastest production sedan in the world.
I hope TESLA will keep pushing the envelope and develop an even faster car in the future and that it will be not only be the fastest electric car but the fastest sedan in the world PERIOD. They are certainly on the right track and have done amazing things with the technology already. KUDOS.
I've had lots of seat time in both of these cars
I think all he meant was that people that can't drive properly have no business being in powerful ICE cars. I tend to agree with him. Its like an average joe, and a Nascar or something. Doesn't belong.
As for him being a "pretentious twat," well I cannot comment on that cause I don't know him.
I always figured an Aston Martin would be my gift to myself if I had a successful exit.
I decided instead on a Model S.
No regrets at all. :)
"First, Panamera has been out for a while now and everyone and anyone that has the money and wanted one, has one."
Whereas only a tiny fraction of those who will move heaven and Earth to get a Tesla have even heard of it so far, and yet Pana's sales are down 38% YoY. Hmmm...
Sounds like Curtainsville, to me.
Nobody will convince @THEKING that the MS could ever beat a Panamera.
Even a fair witness observing such a result must be having vision problems.
If the Panamera ever was beaten, then the universe would cease to exist. Or it was driver error. Or the sun was in their eyes. Or there was dirt on the track.
Here let me give you this example...since i've just spelled it out clearly for you and given the MS the props it deserves yet you take it as some insult...... i'm guessing?
This morning while drive a guy in PRIUS beat me from one stop light to the other even though i was not paying any attention and was more about listening to "VAN HALEN" on the stereo and day dreaming if i should purchase more TESLA stock.
So the point of the story is he may very well think in his mind that the PRIUS is faster and roll with that on the Prius forum or convince himself that it's FACT.
It's funny because what i read on this forum from some of the questionable stories is the P85 is actually faster that SUPERMAN!
Are you the owner of the motorcycle company of the same name? If so, nice work man!
Correction: the motorcycle. The company name is BRD.
The only reason I commented is that you keep insisting erroneously that the Panamera is faster.
I trust a race car driver @lolachampcar who does his own mods and has raced everything under the sun a lot more than a Panamera PARTISAN who thinks the car is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
TheKing sounds like TheTroll
If you have a single share to your name I would be surprised.
The only thing a Panamera has going for it is the interior built quality. Porsche has decades of experience how to do nice leather interiors.
Tesla will need a few years to really catch up. The first try is respectable though.
In all other aspects the Panamera is a dinosaur. It had its time but now the more agile are taking over.
The combination of oil price, lower battery costs and more solar cells on roofs will do the old guard in.
The panamera Turbo will only beat a Model S w/Launch Control - and if you do Launch control enough you won't have a Panamera Turbo for very long - where as the Model S can do it over and over and over again with very little wear…
launch control natter's the clutches, torques the drive shafts, hubs and other wheel parts and _SIGNIFICANTLY_ lowers the life span of major drive train components…
it's fabulous technology that literally "eats" itself to obtain performance - expensive, wasteful, egregious, and oh soooo impressive until you sit back and think about what it's doing in order to obtain that performance level
I love my Porsche GT3, have lusted after a Panamera (but can't get one cause it's a 100k+ sedan that only seats 4 people…
Both cars have their place and their pro's/con's - I will argue the Model S is more Impressive because it is either as good, better, or nearly as good as a Panamera (depending on your point of view) and does it with so much less effort - and as far as fit and finish that can be fixed, but you can't fix ICE and what you need to do to an ICE to get it to complete with a well designed EV…
quit comparing yesterday's technology pinnacle with tomorrow's first attempt…
yes, I think the MS is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
I have no idea if it is faster than a Pana Turbo and I really hope I do not get tangled up with a newer 911TT as they are just plain scary fast.
One thing is for certain, I did not care much for the Pana's looks when it came out and that opinion has not changed. I've had thirty years plus to get used to 911s but there really is no hope I'll ever come to appreciate the Pana. (just one guy's opinion)
I guess you didn't follow or get the "moral" of the story and nothing i stated was "erroneous"