Per Elon at All Things D...after tomorrow's, around June 20 is next (presumably the "fifth" in the trilogy)
Another owner who read the battery warranty claims that it is similar to other products (like tires) in terms of be pro-rated over the 8 years. this means that if it fails after 4 years the Tesla warranty will cover only 50% of the battery replacement cost. If true, this put a major wrinkle on battery swapping unless you end up with your original battery at the end. Seems very difficult to manage. I think that id battery swapping is the approach it will be an additional battery in frunk. I also want to point out that we should not read too much into patent applications. Companies routinely shotgun patent applications to create IP with only a small fraction being commercialized.
A 500 mile pack being charged to 200 miles in 10 minutes seems achievable. He has mentioned the prospect of a 400-500 mile pack recently. This would be very exciting.
I think the case has already been made for the Model S, but this kind of demonstration would seal the deal. It would extinguish the concerns of those who have range anxiety, and I think he could make a reasonable case that the cost of the battery is (or could eventually be) low enough to employ in a Model S.
The bigger question is can he translate that into a convincing case for the Gen III too? It doesn't seem like much that much of a stretch since the Gen III battery is going to be smaller.
The battery warranty does NOT provide for pro-rated replacement cost. It does not cover gradual energy or power loss over time, but if it fails within the warranty period, TM will repair or replace it.
The demo could be battery swap, but the only way I see it actually working for long range travel would be as follows:
1) You start out at a service center, where the remove your battery and hold it until you get back, and replace it with a travel battery.
2) On your trip, you either stop at service centers, or maybe ... and this is a long shot ... maybe Tesla has come with a very compact change out unit that can be installed in parking spot at supercharger locations, but the inventory of spare batteries would probably be very small, and you might have to occasionally fall back to charging instead of swapping.
3) On your return, you visit the service center, and they reinstall your original battery.
Still, I'll be surprised if the demo is battery swap.
I very much hope that you are right. Where would I find the language that makes it clear? (my friend who is usually thorough claims he read the warranty language but I did not personally confirm).
Back to the big-wire hookup of offline charged battery in SC to the car battery: how much simultaneous cooling of the MS battery would it require to half-charge it safely in a short time?
They already have made the swap to 3.4 or 4 (?) volt batteries for all cars produced from 1.1..2013 and software 4.5 will switch to the new 300/340 mile range the 20th.;-) = faster car for the performance+ owners and quicker charge time for everyone with the new batteries.
Here is the full language on the battery warranty (from the New Vehicle Limited Warranty, available from your Dashboard on the TM site):
Subject to the exclusions and limitations described in this New Vehicle Limited Warranty, the Battery Limited Warranty covers the repair or replacement necessary to correct defects in the materials or workmanship of the vehicle’s lithium-ion battery (“Battery”) manufactured or supplied by Tesla that occur under normal use for a period of 8 years or for the miles specified below for your vehicle’s Battery type, whichever comes first:
• 40 kWh - 100,000 miles (160,000 km)
• 60 kWh - 125,000 miles (200,000 km)
• 85 kWh - unlimited miles/km
The Battery, like all lithium-ion batteries, will experience gradual energy or power loss with time and use. Loss of Battery energy or power over time or due to or resulting from Battery usage, is NOT covered under this New Vehicle Limited Warranty. See your owner documentation for important information on how to maximize the life and capacity of the Battery.
So TM is obligated to repair or replace a battery that fails. They do not simply give you an amount of money, prorated by the age of the battery.
Just got an invite at Hawthorne facility for June 20th at 7:30 PM
"There is a way for Tesla Model S to be recharged faster than you can fill a gas tank"
That quote is specifically stating "recharged faster". I can't imagine the event being a battery swap.
Whatever the upgrade is, it needs to be something that won't cause the current orders to want to delay and wait for it.
If there is an amazing new technology that will be installed in MS 2.0 in a few months, there will be a lot of people delaying their purchase.
If the current 14,000 MS cars are locked out of the "recharge faster than a car" technology, there are going to be a lot of angry owners.
I would be tempted to cancel my order for delivery if there is an amazing upgrade coming that current cars won't get.
Perhaps its a simple as it sounds: An improved supercharger that fully charges the battery in 2-3 minutes.
That link would imply it is battery swap. I hope not.
That put Better Place into bankruptcy. Tesla does not need that type of baggage.
I just got invited to the event too. It will be fun to see this new technology / improvement in person. If it wasn't going to work for existing owners, then they would not be inviting us to come watch in person.
So the demo will be conducted at Hawthorne SC on June 20? Then it will probably not be about battery swap but about an improved and faster supercharger.
Kind of worried about this demo....I remember Elon saying that some people(believe he's referring to owners) didn't know they could supercharge during the shareholder conference. I find that hard to believe though. So this demo could be simply showing the current supercharger tech versus the new supercharger tech which probably will be disappointing to all the forum addicts and in my opinion not worthy of a demo. Just my pessimistic opinion on the announcement.
The key part of the statement is "..Tesla Model S to be recharged.."; this is different than saying recharging the LiIon battery. Both main pack swapping and the secondary Air-metal battery in the frunk concept would both 'recharge Model S'. My money is on Air-metal frunk as I do not see why anyone other than commercial vendors would want to swap their main pack.
This is (obviously) nothing but open-ended spitballing, but possibly they've figured out some sort of inductive charging capability (wherein a charging platform would lift and make contact with the underside of the car, allowing direct charging in the same way an electric toothbrush charges)? Anyone with an engineering background have any thoughts on the applicability of such technology given Tesla's battery system?
I would be thrilled if they increased the supercharger speed or added battery capacity in the "frunk" as other members have posited - just figured I would toss out one more possibility for others to contemplate.
Look at the name of the file.
"Batt swap hero"
I think that makes it clear that this is about battery swapping. If that is the case, then I hope it is only a demo. Better Place spent $800 million on this idea and just declared bankruptcy because of lack of demand. Hopefully Tesla doesn't plan to spend any money on this idea.
Nah, you're all wrong. Just like there are no S40s, there are no S60s or S85s either. Turns out we all have P85s just waiting for a software unlock. ;-)
How about we all have P170's just waiting for a software unlock. :-0
As I've said before, Elon has a penchant for hyperbole. We should prepare to be underwhelmed. I honestly don't want a battery swap and the link clearly implies that's what it is. Honestly, they've already made an amazing car. They key is still broadening the market and swapping won't do that. I know others disagree, but replacing the gas station / ICE infrastructure with a swapping one doesn't make a ton of sense to me. Though I guess that's what the SCs do...
Great catch. But the question still remains: pack swap or range pack in the frunk?
With this latest piece of the puzzle - that being the "battswap-hero" link - the complete picture may now be fully deduced.
Owing to the fact that battery-swapping technology has been eliminated as a possibility, we can now infer that a MUCH improved battery will be introduce next week. This battery will charge to a range of 150-200 miles (or more) in less than 10 minutes using an enhanced supercharging process. A demonstration of the new battery being charged will then proceed.
This battery will be so incredibly superior to that which is currently being sold, that no one will want to buy a Tesla until the new battery is in production vehicles. Also, those who have already taken delivery of their Model S will be downright depressed because they'll realize they are stuck with the inferior battery.
In order to placate the current Tesla owners and also to encourage prospective buyers to go ahead and buy, a new program will be announced during the charging demonstration. This program will offer agreeable terms to the owners of the older battery giving them a one-time SWAP opportunity from the old battery to the new awesome battery.
Pretty heroic if you ask me.
Atlanta that was truly brilliant deduction. I hope you are right!
Is that logic, inside info, or pure speculation?
I am not sure why you say battery-swapping technology has been eliminated. 'Recharging the Tesla Model S' is not the same as 'recharging the Tesla Model S battery'. The former is completely consistent with battery swap, either main pack or range pack for frunk. Thus, the "battswap-hero" link in no way rules out battery swap. Indeed, it has battery swap in the title.
@Atlantic - I think you've got it! So "recharging the Model S" actually means "recharging FOR the Model S." In other words, collecting money a second time for the same car.
BrianH; speculation and Logic , this will prevent cancellations from ppl waiting for their cars, make ppl just received their cars happy. Those who have had their cars a couple of months cant really complain, and may want to upgrade.
It is under your nose, and change in batteries used will have to happen some time, and to avoid cancellations/stop in current sales this is the way to do it. Cant advertise that in 2 months There will be a change, when inventory of old batteries are sold.
No swap, metal-air with risky new tech and need of new infrastructure. And i as a stock holder will be very happy.:-D
Couple of months = 5-6 months ago
The extent of denial in this thread is remarkable. Mdemetri - Nothing less than Elon's demo will convince them.
Swappable range packs are hard to bet against at this point.
And I don't think anyone needs to wait on getting a car before the announcement either. Elon was clear that current owners will like this.
For those who question if a swappable frunk pack will make any sense - well, Elon didn't exactly flub the car.
I think you'll find this to be a surprisingly potent new benefit. Elon is systematically knocking down every objection to adoption.
"Juice in a Box" is coming.
The easter eggs, the tweets, and the hardcore Seal Team 6 engineering .... This is Innovation done right. Having fun while fixing the world - It's delightful.
Isn't that, after all, why you're here reading this right now?
I can't see some new hypercharging main battery pack as a possibility. Tesla is not a battery company and they will have to go with what the big boys offer in the 18650 format. And I don't think there exists a battery that has the combination of fast charging, energy density, cycle life, price, reliability and availability to be of use in a Model S.
And if they somehow manage to present a hypercharging pack, trade in your current pack for a new one? Mmmm, if you fully pay for it. It can't be replaced free or under some pro-rated scheme. Tesla does not have enough money to do that. What do you do with 10,000 used battery packs?
"What do you do with 10,000 used battery packs?"
Put them in Supercharging stations.
There are now 20 supercharger stations. Suppose 10 packs each, that is 200 packs. What are you going to do with the other 9,800?
Build more Superchargers.
Invite received yesterday:
"There is a way for the Tesla Model S to be recharged faster than you could fill a gas tank.
Please join Elon Musk for a special announcement at our Desugn Studio in Los Angeles.
Thursday, June 20th at 7:30 PM"
- the new chargers at Harris Ranch bear a "Supercharger 120" designation.
- there has been a mysterious new charger at Hawthorne, which is quite distinctive looking and has "a Supercharger in training" sign on it.
- Elon made the last announcement with the "mystery" SC station clearly visible in the background.
I'm excited to be there for a little bit of history.
Hmmmm.... new advanced batteries
Would this be considered "future hardware upgrades" in the Service Plan ?
I have to admit, the batt-swappers are making a pretty good case. But I remain defiant. I remain in denial. New battery. New SuperCharger. No Retreat. No Surrender.
Forgetting about the title of the file for a second and focusing on the text of the invite:
"There is a way for the Tesla Model S to be recharged faster than you could fill a gas tank."
Could faster refer to speed instead of time? I can only refuel an ICE at 0 mph. Could I be recharging the Model S while driving (via something in the frunk cubby that others have mentioned)?
Now, regarding the file name for a second, everyone is focusing on the "battswap" portion, but what about the "hero" portion? Could this be an acronym for something? High Efficiency Recharging Option, etc. Others will probably come up with better acronyms.
Also, maybe I am reading way too much into the invite, but the car is moving on the invite.
@firstname.lastname@example.org | JUNE 1, 2013
I simply don't understand the amount of anguish over the lack of parking sensors.
Talk to me after a bad case of curb rash!
@"What do you do with 10,000 used battery packs?”
20x300 = 6000 for SC network
upgrades 60 to 85 = 1500 (this would not be cheap 5K?)
2500 decide not to upgrade or any mix of the above!
battswap-hero_732_448.png ….. S in pic looks like it has a nice window tint job :)
Curb rash is not caused by a lack of parking sensors, it's caused by a lack of parking skill.
Hero = "High Energy Recharging Option"
@defmonk - Supercharger in training? That's most curious. Pics?
Short article and 3:45 minute video from Motley Fool regarding June 20th demonstration. Nothing really new mentioned, other than they're very interested to see what happens.