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Mercedes EV ignorance.

Mercedes EV ignorance.

I know not a model 3 specific but it is a slow Sunday morning and early.............

I was at a car show yesterday (annual event) and ran into a Mercedes field engineer that I have chatted with over the course of a few years at same event. He said he just got back from two weeks training in Germany and candidly admitted it was a brainwashing affair. The conversation my wife and I had with this guy near we can remember it:

us: ....so we got TESLA last year
him: big mistake
us: how so?
him: batteries don't last, lithium is more poisonous than nuclear waste, H2 is the way to go.
us: We can fuel from home and get 300 miles charge in about 6 hrs and superchargers are getting faster to where you can charge in under an hour (less in the future) and electricity can be made from clean sources like solar and wind.
him: Have you ever stood underneath a wind turbine (would you like to live next to it), solar panels don't last and (this was funny) you must be hooked up to the grid for them to work.
us: Wind turbines are remotely located and solar panels will be producing for a very long time after they are paid for, and many areas require net metering but we have friends and family running off grid with solar and running AC appliances just fine.

We went through a morning round and afternoon round with this "engineer". The kicker was when he admitted plans by german manufactures to go electric was nothing more than lip service to satisfy compliance goals and requirements.

I am still trying to process the load of hyperbole coming from this "Mercedes Field Engineer's" mouth.

HighlandPony | 23. juni 2019

Is Mercedes working on a fool cell vehicle? I doubt it, his responses sound more like the standard BS conservative talking points. Probably just a devoted FOX viewer.

Magic 8 Ball | 23. juni 2019

No doubt there was a lot of that (maybe MB requires their US folks to be FOX viewers, LoL).

TeslaTap.com | 23. juni 2019

@M8 - a bit crazy! Never heard the lithium poisonous tag before. How any engineer could believe the H2 crap is totally amazing. Maybe the MB field engineer has a degree in social engineering. Clearly not a critical thinker or has any understanding of EVs.

Magic 8 Ball | 23. juni 2019

I must say the guy talked a decent talk being able to convince me he actually worked for MB so even if he was not a book trained engineer he blew me away with nonsense. Just got back from a morning walk and here is a couple more gems we remembered:

Every person in the USA pays 63K toward every TESLA built. (he was specific with that number so he is repeating nonsense he read and believes somewhere).

We went to war in Afghanistan purely to lock up Lithium resources.

gballant4570 | 23. juni 2019

I am forced to conclude that this MB "Engineer" is largely delusional. Humans are prone to delusion anyway, and some simply get consumed by it. I might also speculate that he is not a real engineer, as that kind of tag is significantly over-used when compared to the legal definition.... but having worked in engineering for my (now over) career, I must admit that engineers, while usually being a moderately intelligent bunch, are just as prone to delusion as any group of humans.
But the repetition of patently obvious and demonstrably untrue statements is a bit over the top....

Magic 8 Ball | 23. juni 2019

@gballant

I agree 100% and this guy is more than delusional, his bottom line he was anti-EV and was using some of the most extreme arguments against EV's I have heard (first comparison to nuclear waste for me). I have talked with this guy once a year for 3 years now and the story is consistent. He is a field engineer and he has referenced talking with MB engineers when he goes back to germany for regular training. From that I gather he is using the "engineer" title MB gives him but he is largely influenced and trained by MB "engineers". I know I am reaching from this single data point but I was appalled that someone from MB would be so openly and arrogantly anti-EV.

To be fair we agreed H2 makes sense in a fixed base co-generation application and he did not actually say it but I think I got him to resign on the idea of H2 in cars.

It was clear he was clueless about solar and how inverters work so I knew he was not formally trained as an engineer but I do believe he is trained and influenced by MB engineers. I hinted that MB and TESLA might be collaborating on a sprinter project and he was a deer in the headlights and went down the path of MB is a diesel company and EV MB vans are lip service. I reminded him about MB having a stake in TESLA and his comeback was having a stake in greenwashing credits but I can only find Fiat/Chrysler deal on that (maybe more to that business than what we know?)

Magic 8 Ball | 23. juni 2019

@FISHEV I openly admit that memory is tricky and even mine can be flawed. Fortunately my wife was in attendance on the last two occasions with this guy and yesterday was fresh in both our memories. We talked it over several times and I am repeating an accurate account base on our collective memory (we have no problem correcting each other if we find error or difference in recollection).

Another option is that I creatively made this all up and wow, what an imagination I must have, I can only wish I was creative enough to make such things up out of thin air.

gballant4570 | 23. juni 2019

I bought a Smart in 2008, and they came from a MB dealer at that time. I took the car back to the dealer for routine maintenance/service for a couple of years before I wised up. The time I spent in that dealership before wising up was quite revealing. A delusional state of some sort is fairly widespread in their customer base, at least here in the US from what I can tell, and the MB culture is quite likely aimed at validating and perpetuating that dynamic.

And of course they know that they cannot simply jump in and compete in an EV landscape.

mcmack15 | 23. juni 2019

Magic Man---I now feel duped. We have an S and a 3, and we are in the midst of building an addition and new 2 car garage with solar on the roof---I feel like a fool. How do I get an H2 car? Buyers remorse---oh no............I should have stuck with the ICE vehicles instead of getting all fancy and going electric.

Magic 8 Ball | 23. juni 2019

I have read about a few accounts of this in the "ICE" culture but yesterday's experience was quite revealing. When I presented my "arguments" he jumped to me being an EV zealot despite my wife and I sitting behind our hotrod '51 mercury while conversing. It was relaxed and he constantly tested the water if he was being offensive but he was hard on his mission to sell EV's as being a terrible mistake (it was amusing he accused me of being a zealot and he carried on for about an hour in the morning and another 30 or so minutes in the afternoon of anti EV(about 200 cars at the gathering with a much larger crowd coming to look). One of the better strawman he tried to build was: "electric is not the panacea "you" trying to make it out to be". My wife piped up and said: "who said that"? More deer in the headlights and then diversion.

The reason I am writing about this is this is my first, first hand, experience with this and the extreme arguments this guy had were remarkable and it just makes me wonder if that extremism is being sold on the inside of the ICE culture? I have long had the thought that the internal struggle of an ICE company to go EV and keep a culture will be next to impossible. Are the diesel guys being fed raw anti-EV meat so they don't feel their jobs are at risk?

gballant4570 | 23. juni 2019

Despite the MB "engineers", the Tesla stock shorters, the coal rollers, or any of those whose personal delusions we cannot guess at are threatened by the advent of the EV revolution, the wave has already started and is in motion.

nylon | 23. juni 2019

`Is Mercedes working on a fool cell vehicle? I doubt it, his responses sound more like the standard BS conservative talking points. Probably just a devoted FOX viewer.`

@HighlandPony A lot of your fellow Tesla owners are conservative. I have no problem with power generation from natural gas if it keeps the costs down, and I didn't buy my car for environmental reasons at all.

gballant4570 | 23. juni 2019

nylon, fortunately, we are experiencing the time during which renewable energy generation is proving to be more efficient from an installed capacity viewpoint than even low cost natural gas, at least here in the US. At this point, I am not certain what defines "a lot" - Tesla has a stated mission, that is perhaps at odds with the world view espoused by many conservatives. For EV's to become mainstream, of course that must change - but at this point most owners could be considered to be early adopters, who by and large would not self-identify as conservatives.

So while your point is well taken, and more likely to gain accuracy as we move into the future, the opinion HighlandPony expressed has plenty of merit, currently.

HighlandPony | 23. juni 2019

Yes nylon, there are conservative Tesla owners. This is a testament to the effectiveness of Elon’s grand plan. I’m paraphrasing here but basically you will never convince some people into doing the right thing for the environment. So you have to trick them into it by making such compelling EV’s that they will buy them regardless.

nylon | 23. juni 2019

@gballant4570 Tesla's mission statement doesn't even mention the environment. It's about sustainable transport, which deals with powering vehicles after peak oil. I don't see it conflicting with climate skepticism, to be honest. Besides, you can be a skeptic in the current climate change debate in different ways, like asking for a cost/benefit analysis for proposed plans to cut carbon emissions. I've also heard Elon express climate skepticism himself. He describes the current situation as an experiment, and talks about running out of fossil fuels instead of the world ending to stress how dumb it is.

Lonestar10_1999 | 23. juni 2019

There is also the geopolitical argument that lessening our dependence on foreign oil is in the national interest, and EV helps achieve that goal. Having lived through the Arab oil embargo of the 1970s, this argument is an easy sell.

mcmack15 | 23. juni 2019

Lonestar10_1999--------you succinctly summarized my underlying motivation that prompted me to buy a Tesla. My wife introduced me to the Teslas and on the test drive I experienced that acceleration, it then became a no brainer. We are now in the process of doing some remodeling, and solar panels will be in the end product to cover 100% of our electrical needs.

If I were king for a day I would require all new construction, commercial and residential, to include non-fossil fuel solutions, with solar being the most obvious. I would change the tax laws such that the credits, deductions, etc. made it all worth while. To have the country be 100% self sufficient, for now and forever, energy wise would be the goal.

FISHEV | 23. juni 2019

"If I were king for a day I would require all new construction, commercial and residential, to include non-fossil fuel solutions, with solar being the most obvious. I would change the tax laws such that the credits, deductions, etc. made it all worth while. To have the country be 100% self sufficient, for now and forever, energy wise would be the goal."

It's called Green New Deal. There are political leaders who propose what you outline.

After first trip to Saudi in 1976, I purchased a Diesel Rabbit, the car that used the least oil, made in US in PA no less.

Tropopause | 23. juni 2019

Your friend's job may be short-lived as are all jobs at the German car companies.

hannes | 23. juni 2019

@Nylon -- I don't think I would call it skepticism on Elon's part ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKCuDxpccYM

FISHEV | 23. juni 2019

"My best look at the SUV's real-world range came last year, when I rode right-seat in an EQC prototype from Mercedes' research and development center in Sunnyvale, California, to the coastal region of Big Sur and back. Loaded with four adults, the EQC traveled 228 miles without recharging, the battery indicating a 7% charge at the end of the day. Bastian Schult, the engineer who led that test, was definitely driving with an eye toward max range, but he wasn't exactly a slowpoke, either. "

Here's an actual Mercedes engineer with exact quotes if that helps.

greg | 23. juni 2019

The MB engineer may have been misadvised in several places.

His assertion that "solar panels must be grid tied to work" is half right.

Most solar systems installed are grid tied, and grid tied solar panels will stop working during a power cut. This is by intention to stop the electricity flowing from house and electrifying (in all senses of the word) the local grid and this any line repair/maintenance workers etc working on them.

So he had that part sort of half cocked right.

A Tesla Powerwall will be able to isolate your house from the grid [the additional hardware Tesla supply does this], thus allowing your solar panels to be used to charge the Powerwalls batteries or run your house. But most installations don't have Powerwalls. So don't have that capability.

The rest, yeah sounds like Corporate BS - probably intended to keep the employees and customers "driving along the MB path" for as long as possible. Rather than actually do anything else necessary.

RES IPSA | 23. juni 2019

Are you sure he worked for Mercedes and not Exxon Mobil...

Magic 8 Ball | 23. juni 2019

Well he has been building the MB character for three years now and maybe he anticipated we would have an EV conversation in the future and or I was under a spell during the conversation. The folks at MB are probably using Vril magic to spread misinformation and cheat their way out of having to go EV (germans have been known to cheat in the car business).

calvin940 | 23. juni 2019

By virtue of the fact that an MB employee that represents the company said such things just goes to show they feel very threatened by Tesla. And they should be given the high EV standards being set.

FISHEV | 23. juni 2019

"Well he has been building the MB character"

Well someone has been building a strawman...er..."MB Engineer".

Take a ride in the new EQC Merc and you'll want to find that "MB Engineer" and shake his hand...its apparently one sweet EV ride.

https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/mercedes-benz/eqc/2020/road-test/

RES IPSA | 23. juni 2019

This MB guy apparently doesn't want to live near a windmill... Would he want to live next to an oil derrick or refinery?

calvin940 | 23. juni 2019

Citing an already known biased publication to prove something. I see.

gmr6415 | 23. juni 2019

@Magic 8 Ball: "Wind turbines are remotely located and solar panels will be producing for a very long time after they are paid for."

+1

Just an FYI. After hurricane Irma came through FL 2 years ago I and my neighbor both had metal roofs put on. My PV panels are on a separate building, so I didn't have to remove them. My neighbor's were on his house. Being the cheapskate he is he got $7000 out of his insurance company for removal and reinstallation of the solar, but removed them himself.

That's fine, he/we were standing on shingles while taking them off. After the metal roof was installed it was another story getting them back up. It involved a lot of purchasing of various sticky soled shoes until we found one that worked and a lot of ropes and harnesses. All said, they were off the house for over a year. After the panels were installed but before we connected them to the inverter we compared their unloaded output to the specs from the owner's manual for when the panels were new. We tested them individually and in strings. They were all within 1% of specifications at 10 years old.

The nephew of my neighbor, a newly graduated mechanical engineer, and an ICE fan told me that solar panels aren't actually a renewable energy source because they have to be replaced every 10 years...where ever he got that. He was standing there when we tested the 10-year-old panels and found less than a 1% degradation. I looked at him and told him that was within the margin of error for new panels. I then told him he needed to sue the college that he obtained his degree from.

Magic 8 Ball | 23. juni 2019

@calvin940 The instant critic of our TESLA choice (this guy visits us and our car because he loves our '51 and claims to have one under restoration) was a shock and it definitely came across as feeling the threat. He quickly postulated TESLA will be gone in 5 years and that is when I went into MB being a stakeholder and talking about a TESLA/Sprint collaboration. After I cam up with that it was cause for his longest pause in his jabbering (he was non stop).

The difficulty and inefficiency of ICE going to EV is crazy. The ICE guys will feel their divisions withering away and will be trying to retrain but to no avail. The EV units will want fresh new , trainable, staff; not the stick in the mud old guys and gals. TESLA has none of that in their future and with EV's growing and the ICE guys biting each other's heads off for survival one has to wonder if the internal sabotage and backstabbing in the old companies will just accelerate their demise.

I am not one to bet against companies but there is probably good money to be made betting against some to the industry mainstays. Of course if GM and Ford start building tanks and transports they may get a bit of a boost but that won't be long lasting (hopefully) either. The interesting part about a war scenario is oil reserves go to the war effort and domestic fuel prices will most likely go up.

EV ownership, at least one, just makes too much sense at this point. As Lonestar mentioned I remember the oil Embargo well and owning a TESLA then would have helped one from having to get up at 3 in the morning to get in a line to get gas. Gas station opened at 6 or 7 and would "run out" of gas before noon. Some gas stations only opened a few days a week many just closed. That was a stark contrast from driving through the valley in the back seat of the family cruiser watching dad trying to decide when to stop for gas at the lowest price (they had gas wars and on a whim some stations would flash sale to get people in the station).

Back in 1963 $.29 a gallon was common and gas war prices would sometimes get it to the low twenty cent range. When 1974 rolled around prices jumped to over $.50 a gallon and is now getting close to $4.00 again.

FISHEV | 23. juni 2019

$0.29 in 1963 is $2.43 in 2019. Historically gas prices are low. Escalating the Middle East oil war will drive up gasoline costs so US may end up subsidizing EV's by accident while giving big boost to big oil profits. Gas price spikes have typically meant boost for fuel efficient cars. When the water heats up fast, the frogs jump.

As far is transition to EV, the role model is China.

Best regular buyer EV's right now are Korean, the Kona and Kia, and Korea is heavily into sustainable energy industry from solar panels to batteries to controls to EV's.

As for Mercedes, the EQC looks to be a super EV and great addition to the mission "to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy." While the mystery "Mercedes Engineer" may or may not have said some things, going by actual product, looks like Mercedes has a good handle on building EV's.

Coworkers Porsche Panamera E-Turbo works well...he rarely puts gasoline in it

Audi e-Tron is getting good reviews.

BMW next up to the plate but their i3 has certainly been a commercially successful EV.

nylon | 23. juni 2019

@hannes I like Elon's idea about a revenue-neutral carbon tax. It has to be understood if accelerating this transition makes economic sense, though. If we spend 10T on the transition, but only save 1T in reduced costs from effects, well, it's better to spend that money in mitigation instead of prevention.

P.S. I don't like that countries with very poor solar and wind potential are steamrolled by rules that fit the big players with far better renewable potential. It has to be taken into account, or I'm against any global carbon agreement or international scheme.

FISHEV | 23. juni 2019

" If we spend 10T on the transition, but only save 1T in reduced costs from effects, well, it's better to spend that money in mitigation instead of prevention."

1. $300B savings per year from eliminate oil imports.
2. $500B savings per year on military to occupy Middle East oil fields (leaves more than twice what Russia and China combined spend, $350B).
3. $200B a year currently and rising costs of climate change.

So savings per year is $1T.

Converting to green economy means more jobs and industry, sustainable energy already employs more than fossil fuel in US. US builds sustainable energy industry which cuts imports of such equipment and increases US exports.

There's really no "cost" to converting to sustainable energy environment and huge savings incentives to be gained along with health care issues form pollution (estimated at 10% of our $6T health care costs),

The "cap and trade" and "revenue neutral carbon tax" have never worked.

Just put out incremental required emissions reductions and alternate energy expansions and let people find their own solutions as long as they get emissions results. Without clear metrics of reduction we we still be in the position we are in of rising, not falling, green house gas emissions.

Looking at our area, EV's...should be mandated as China and Europe are doing...no gas cars after 2050.

Even that is hard to get going with "soft" solutions like Cap/Trade we have no chance of meeting science goal of 80% reduction in emissions by 2050.

"Nine countries say they’ll ban internal combustion engines. So far, it’s just words."

https://qz.com/1341155/nine-countries-say-they-will-ban-internal-combust...

"

Tesla2018 | 23. juni 2019

I saw an electric Mercedes SUV at a charging station. It said Electric on the back but I didnt get a chance to talk to the owner. Do they make electric suvs now or was it some type of hybrid?

I live in Fl and have seen a few electric Fiat 500s but the people who owned then said they bought them from California since they are only available in a few states. Why dont all statre sell them or is they no demand for them in other states where people arent into elrctric cars.

nylon | 23. juni 2019

@FISHEV I'm not buying decreased health care costs. Coal consumption has been falling in the USA, but the costs of healthcare have been going up. Also skeptical on renewables being good because they're labor intensive – should be looking at costs instead. Replacing oil imports with domestic electricity only saves you money to the extent that the total cost of ownership for vehicles is decreased. That's not the case currently; my Model 3 was only cheaper to own because of generous tax breaks. And military savings in the Middle East? USA is already a net exporter of oil, but still the world police.

FISHEV | 23. juni 2019

"I'm not buying decreased health care costs."

“In 2015, diseases caused by air, water and soil pollution were responsible for 9 million premature deaths, that is 16% of all global death. Exposures to contaminated air, water and soil kill more people than smoking, hunger, natural disasters, war, AIDS, or malaria.”

https://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2017/10/23/the-human-and-financial-cost-of...

jjgunn | 23. juni 2019

Lithium is poisonous.....

My first response would've been....

What are gas, oil & the resulting emissions from the ICE vehicle?? Nutritious?!?!?

I did see a Jaguar i-Pace on the road turning into Oracle about 2 days ago.

Competition is good. Anybody that thinks ICE has any future is a complete moron.

nylon | 23. juni 2019

@FISHEV That's globally and together with water and soil pollution. It also says America has been a leader in cleaning up the environment.

wb808 | 24. juni 2019

Tesla2018 - I saw an electric Mercedes SUV at a charging station. It said Electric on the back but I didnt get a chance to talk to the owner. Do they make electric suvs now or was it some type of hybrid?

Possibly the B250e?

https://www.autotrader.com/car-reviews/2017-mercedes-benz-b250e-new-car-...

gballant4570 | 24. juni 2019

nylon, your first mediocre point was your best. You've gone downhill a bit.

"Tesla's mission statement doesn't even mention the environment. It's about sustainable transport, which deals with powering vehicles after peak oil." This is a dodge - I did not see any claim in my statement that Tesla's mission statement mentioned the environment. Splitting hairs over words is a tedious argument strategy that bores an intelligent person almost immediately.

"Besides, you can be a skeptic in the current climate change debate in different ways, like asking for a cost/benefit analysis for proposed plans to cut carbon emissions." This is simply blather. Asking for a cost benefit analysis has far less connection to being a "climate skeptic" (whatever that is?) than the Tesla mission statement has to mentioning the environment.

"I've also heard Elon express climate skepticism himself. He describes the current situation as an experiment, and talks about running out of fossil fuels instead of the world ending to stress how dumb it is." At this point I would say that your personal set of delusions allows considerable leeway in your interpretation of reality. Are you saying that Elon Musk does not accept the premise that the earth has climate?

You should have stopped earlier......

adminstrator | 24. juni 2019

I totally agree.

SalisburySam | 24. juni 2019

@M8B, your MB engineer source obviously has the credentials and expertise to know exactly what he is talking about so the question comes up: what do I do about it? Clearly, for me, my only approach is to put up for sale my LEAF and Model 3 as very dangerous for having so much Li. Now looking feverishly for a hydrogen vehicle and source so that I could be in compliance with obvious good judgment. As anyone knows, hydrogen is totally available everywhere and completely safe (except for some dirigibles, obvi).

How could I have been so misinformed?

Geico | 24. juni 2019

This engineer must have been an idiot if the way you describe the encounter is actually true. Most engineers I know have real factual evidence and a very logic based mind, this guy however does not and should be fired.

FISHEV | 24. juni 2019

"This engineer must have been an idiot if the way you describe the encounter is actually true."

Ah...the rub. Engineer seems like perfect foil as the tale is told.

The resulting Mercedes EQC is a super EV so the results were fabulous.

Geico | 24. juni 2019

Nah, we have several engineers at work that marvel at the Model 3's design and engineering marvel it has. This guy was blowing smoke up peoples ass and was either too stupid to realize it or was a shoddy salesman.

Neomaxizoomdweebie | 24. juni 2019

What kind of engineer? You should have asked him what a Stress Tensor was, or the Rankin Cycle. Dude was probably a marketing major, questionable whether he graduated.

kevin_rf | 24. juni 2019

You know, I've been saying for quite a while some of the people here really need to be on lithium. It is a very effective anti-psych drug.

What you saw with Mercedes is pure marketing, when you don't have the product or plans for a better product you trash talk it. That is until you have the better product, then you act like you invented it and the competition are rank amateurs. Nothing to see here, moving on.

howard | 24. juni 2019

M8B, good job with the fiction of the day. Perhaps a writer’s forum might have been a better choice than another pointless Tesla gang thread. Amazed you went with MB instead of GM. After call GM kills more people than MB, right? Spreading it around I guess.

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