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Does the Bolt have too much range?

Does the Bolt have too much range?

I know that most people will disagree with me, but I think the Bolt has too much range. I know most, especially first time, electric car drivers want as much range as they can get, but really, what is it used for?

The Bolt makes a good city car. Most drivers drive well under a hundred miles a day. Getting down to this number by removing battery weight would increase efficiency.

The Tesla can use its range for long distance travel but the Bolt, without a supercharger network, really cannot. You could drive to a destination within 200 miles as long as you have access to an L2 charger and the ability to leave the car there overnight. Otherwise you could only travel about a hundred miles away from home. Less if you want to drive anywhere once you get there.

Without ubiquitous high speed charging, I don't see the ability to travel so I see the extra range as useless. It is good for marketing though as no one would be talking about it if it had 100 mile range.

andy.connor.e | 08. mars 2017

^

Dont you get tired? You've been at it for well over 6 months. How long you going to go for?

finman100 | 08. mars 2017

I'd say as long as it takes. Go Elon!

eandmjep | 09. mars 2017

Look at this from a different perspective. 238 Miles EPA in the Bolt? A car, compared to the S or 3, with a cd equivalent to some road worthy Farm equipment and only a 60 kWh battery? The M3 would have to do better than that with 60 kWh, and if it falls short (meaning overall wh/m being worse) how can that happen?

I think where a MS60 has about 55 kWh available (from what I have heard) That the Bolt has 60 kWh available meaning it may have a total storage capacity greater than 60. Either way, it is impressive range.

SamO | 09. mars 2017

Nope. WRONG again imbecile. How many times do the "Teslarati" have to explain this to GM-fellators, dim bulbs like yourself: Tesla is capable of fast charging. Not so for the Bolt. Tesla has the FASTEST charging Network on earth. Zero for the Bolt.

NOT THE SAME.

Thank you kindly.

andy.connor.e | 09. mars 2017

^
SamO has a point. Eagles you want to focus on the range. But the problem is not necessarily JUST range. If you could get an 80% charge in 5 minutes or less but only have 200 miles of range, then it would be appropriately argued that over 200 miles of range is simply not necessary. Why build a massive battery if charging speed/access could solve that problem.

Carl Thompson | 09. mars 2017

I agree with SamO but the name calling isn't necessary. This isn't junior high and you're all supposed to be adults. Act like it.

Carl

KP in NPT | 09. mars 2017

Long history, Carl. ;-)

Carl Thompson | 09. mars 2017

andy.connor.e:
"Why build a massive battery if charging speed/access could solve that problem."

Why do ICE cars have big enough tanks for a 400 mile+ range when they could just have small tanks and a 100 mile range and just fill up quickly and easily at gas stations that are everywhere?

Carl

SamO | 09. mars 2017

Nobody elected you to police the forum. OWNERS can flag inappropriate content and I welcome those flags where OWNERS see fit, "Carl".

andy.connor.e | 09. mars 2017

@Carl

I dont know. What is the cost difference for the manufacturer to provide a gas tank that is say 3 gallons smaller?

What is the cost difference to the manufacturer to provide 15kWh of extra battery storage?

Carl Thompson | 09. mars 2017

@SamO

What is wrong with you and you friends here? Did you never learn that acceptance of people's differences and other ideas is beneficial to everyone in a society? Or you just sad people with low self esteem that feel a little better about themselves by insulting other people on the internet?

Carl

Carl Thompson | 09. mars 2017

andy.connor.e:
" dont know. What is the cost difference for the manufacturer to provide a gas tank that is say 3 gallons smaller?

What is the cost difference to the manufacturer to provide 15kWh of extra battery storage?"

Excellent point! You're right, of course. It costs virtually nothing to make cars with bigger tanks but it cost thousands for bigger batteries.

Carl

andy.connor.e | 09. mars 2017

Is it more economical in realistic terms to provide a range that will suit all? I dont know. It costs the manufacturer alot more to provide you with 100 extra miles of battery range, than a few gallons larger gas tank. What was the reason for the size they chose? I have no idea.

The only reason there is range anxiety is because there are no charging stations located in practical locations. Our infrastructure is not set up for EVs to take over the road yet. If there was 1 gas station 20 miles away from where you lived would you have range anxiety? What difference would it make if you took 150 miles of range away and could "fill up" at your house?

Maybe the problem is your attitude towards the problem. Maybe.

andy.connor.e | 09. mars 2017

Relatively unused, due to the fact that less than 0.02% of the cars on the road are EVs?

andy.connor.e | 09. mars 2017

You make my brain cells commit suicide. I cant talk to you anymore.

Red Sage ca us | 09. mars 2017

Acceptance, of difference in opinion, happens here all the time. It is a natural progression of ongoing discussion. None of the true Tesla Enthusiasts here will accept deception, lies, 'alternative facts', or terminal stupidity that is obviously meant to contribute to the dissemination of FUD regarding Tesla and their products.

Carl Thompson | 09. mars 2017

@Red Sage ca us

So you're saying that you accept differences of opinion but you won't accept the "deception, lies, 'alternative facts', or terminal stupidity" of people that don't agree with you and your fellow "true Tesla Enthusiasts?"

I don't think that's the way acceptance is supposed to work.

Carl

akgolf | 09. mars 2017

Eagles is an obvious GM troll that has frequented this forum for too long. He has a long history here.

polaris | 09. mars 2017

I get that there are a lot of people who are big fans of Tesla - I mean, I would like one as much as the next person I suppose. I'm just not sure what the point of knocking the Bolt is all about tho. The number 1 reason for me choosing an EV is the planet. Number 2 and so on are nowhere close to being as important. For that reason - I would love to see the acceleration of our transition to not only EVs but more sustainable energy sources.

If the Bolt can capture a market that drives EV adoption - shouldn't we be all for it!? For all of Tesla's altruistic attitude about a sustainable future - it's not really going to move the needle if their cheapest car is going to be $35k base. When you add taxes and what not - I'm not sure how anyone can say that is affordable for the mass public. Both the Honda Civic and Toyota Corolla are in the top 7 of sold cars in the US and they both have MSRPs of less than $25k. That's a huge gap to affordability.

SamO | 09. mars 2017

Trolls get what they get.

Astroturfers get what they get.

GM apologists get what they get.

Buy a car. Flag my posts.

:-)

JeffreyR | 09. mars 2017

@polaris, don't interpret complaining about GM and it's flawed strategy--GM CEO, "No, we will not invest in charging."-- as anything more than pushing back on where we see room for improvement. It's not so much Bolt "hate" as GM "hate" mixed w/ some style bashing. The Bolt does have "the aerodynamics of a ham sandwich" as remarked above. I've seen a few around San Jose and can confirm that it looks less like a $37K car and more like an econ-box. It's more boring than ugly in my eyes. Hey, we can't all drive this (there's only one after all, and it does not have a top):
http://www.bentleymotors.com/en/models/concept-cars/exp12-speed-6e.html

Where you see name-calling and hostility is mostly pointed at @Pigeon, an infamous astroturfer. For me it's simple, I created a bookmarklet to help owners flag posts by users they deem inappropriate:

http://marklets.com/Flag%20All%20by%20User.aspx

"T3" = flag (we've asked nicely many times to use common abbreviations https://teslatap.com/?s=abbreviations)

KP in NPT | 09. mars 2017

LOOLLLLLLLLL the forum troll is preaching about anti social behavior. That's awesome.

JeffreyR | 09. mars 2017

"childish anti-social behavior" -- irony.

"T3" = flag; you've been asked on several occasions to abbreviate Model 3 as "M3" instead. Being part of community means adapting the jargon of it. Flaunting that w/o reason is what gets you flagged by me. It seems your only motivation is spreading confusion, misinformation (astroturfing) and trolling at this point. This goes well beyond being childish.

This forum is a team, join up or go home.

----
If you don't see responses from me in the future it may be because of the TFES:
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/tesla-forum-enhancement-suite-tfes...

Red Sage ca us | 09. mars 2017

Carl Thompson: Please explain why you believe it would be a good idea to accept the "deception, lies, 'alternative facts', or terminal stupidity" of anyone at all without challenge or correction. Go ahead. I'll wait. [FLOCK].

Carl Thompson | 09. mars 2017

@JeffreyR
I think you're making too much of EaglesPDX calling the Model 3 the T3. You're correct; the proper name (currently) is Model 3 but there are people here that still use the old symbol too. I don't see it as something for which it's worth getting upset and "flagging" someone.

Carl

bmalloy0 | 09. mars 2017

T3 is a movie. M3/Model 3 (with or withhout the bars) is a car.

Carl Thompson | 09. mars 2017

EaglesPDX:
"But back to the Bolt which seems an object of fear for the Teslarati. The Bolt's excellent EV range of 238 miles, more than base TS or TX's, is what makes it such an object of fear, that it will steal sales from Tesla. I don't think so as they are aimed at two different market segments, a $48K working man's EV and a $60K luxury status vehicle."

I don't know that I agree that the Model 3 and Bolt are aimed at different markets. I think Tesla wants the Model 3 to compete directly against products like the Bolt. I also think for mostly the same reasons pointed out by many people here that the Model 3 will soundly beat the Bolt in sales. That's OK because it will force GM to significantly discount the Bolt and GM have to up their game for their next model. That benefits everyone.

Carl

Carl Thompson | 09. mars 2017

bmalloy0:
"T3 is a movie. M3/Model 3 (with or withhout the bars) is a car."

I guess it could be argued that Tesla does not call the Model 3 the "M3" anywhere. So "M3" is just as incorrect as "T3."

Carl

Carl Thompson | 09. mars 2017

EaglesPDX:
"Bolt sales are excellent, on track to sell at least the planned 30,000 in 2017, maybe more as LG says they can do 50,000 Bolts this year."

There's a good chance the Bolt will outsell the Model 3 in 2017 but only because Model 3 production will have barely started. But by the time Model 3 production gets into full gear in 2018 I expect it won't be any contest. The Bolt may have a hatchback and (possibly) higher base range but pretty much every other factor, including base price, makes the Model 3 a better car.

"EV's are very small market segment, the Bolt and Volt are definitely lower market end than Teslas but all EV's are a more expensive market position. A maxed out Bolt is $48K, a maxed out T3 will be near $70K. That's a big difference. Because Tesla started out as luxury, status car market, the T3 is perceived as the entre to that status market. That's the reason the T3 sold out 400,000 deposits in a few weeks."

I disagree. I think Tesla has made it clear that they intend the Model 3 to be a car for mainstream buyers and not just a niche luxury car. I think they expect a near-base Model 3 to go toe-to-toe with any Bolt. But you're right, options on the 3 will add up quickly. Maybe not as high as $70k but certainly much higher than the Bolt. I think Tesla wants customers to be able to take this mainstream car and make it somewhat close to the Model S or X if they want. That will be an interesting strategy and I'll we'll find out if it works.

Carl

noleaf4me | 09. mars 2017

NO WAY

sosmerc | 09. mars 2017

Until we actually see the final version, along with its various options, it's all speculation. At least the Bolt is actually available today at some dealers and you can configure and price. Until we can do that with the Model 3 how do we know where it stands with regards to "competition"?

JayInJapan | 09. mars 2017

48k? 42k? 50k-70k? lol

Carl Thompson | 09. mars 2017

@sosmerc

Agree. Pointless to wildly speculate now when we'll (hopefully) know all the details in a few months.

Carl

PhillyGal | 10. mars 2017

@Pacey looks to have been scared away by the back-and-forth on this post.

dsvick | 10. mars 2017

@Eagles, you keep tossing out that the Model 3 is 80% of the Model S, like that is in some way significant. The only thing that they were referring to when that was mentioned was size. You cannot infer cost, features, selling price or anything else from that number. That'd be like saying the Model 3 will only have 80% of the buyers since it is only 80% the size.

Carl Thompson | 10. mars 2017

PaceyWhitter made his point and it was a good one. Without faster level 3 charging the long range of the Bolt is much less useful than it is on a Tesla.

Carl

tes-s | 10. mars 2017

I see Leaf's charging at the CHAdeMO chargers near me all the time. The are reliable, 50amp chargers - and free. Probably takes 50% more charging time for a Leaf at the 50amp CHAdeMO than a M3 at a supercharger.

Nissan sold a LOT Leafs over the past 7 years with 100 mile (or less) range. Surely there is a market for 200+ mile range vehicles with CHAdeMO. And maybe, just maybe, with 200+ mile range Bolts and Leafs there will be more CHAdeMO available.

The change from 100-mile to 200-mile range (without superchargers) moves the cars from "city car" to "second car" status - useful for almost everything for most people.

andy.connor.e | 10. mars 2017

I hope everyone realizes that the Tesla Model 3 forums, is not a GM vs Tesla discussion board. lol

Rocky_H | 10. mars 2017

@dsvick, +1
With @Pigeonchess wanting to apply that 80% number to everything about the Model 3, I'm surprised he hasn't tried to say it will only have 3 wheels.

PaceyWhitter | 10. mars 2017

I apologise to everyone for mentioning the Bolt in my thread title. I should have known it would put up the eagles signal and would just devolve the discussion into bickering.

swingshiftworker | 10. mars 2017

I haven't read the entire thread but as someone who actually leased and have driven a Bolt for over 800 miles for the past month, I can speak w/personal knowledge and say that the Bolt does NOT have too much range.

While one Bolt owner has posted a video "proving" that he could drive 300 miles on a single charge . . .

See: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1108929_chevy-bolt-ev-electric-range...

. . . my experience has been quite different.

Driving at normal freeway speeds in the fast lane at 70-80mph, the best I can do is an effective range of 150-170 miles, which limits my RTs to 75-85 miles max with NO room for error.

This experience was echoed in a report posted by a Bolt owner/driver who attempted an 800 mile trip in the car:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109117_chevy-bolt-ev-800-mile-trip-...

So, I've chosen to only drive the Bolt w/o a range of 100-120 miles RT leaving me around 30-50 miles in reserve, so that I do not have to recharge on the road -- only at home.

Doesn't mean the Bolt can't be driven farther than I choose to do. It obviously can but I just don't want to be bothered w/the time and cost involved in recharging while on the road -- and the same would apply if I were driving an M3.

I actually visited a Tesla dealership the other day -- where I was treated very nicely BTW -- and the ONLY versions of the Model S that would probably suit me in terms of range would be the 90 or 100 kwh models which cost WAY more than what I'd want to spend on a car.

Given that the M3 probably will NOT come w/such options, I now think it is very unlikely that I will ever opt to buy or lease an M3 when it finally becomes available because it simply won't have the effective range that I want/need.

topher | 10. mars 2017

"Given that the M3 probably will NOT come w/such options"

While 100 has been ruled out (for now), most here fully expect a 85-90 kWh version (and simple math does not rule it out either). Which would give at least the range of a 100 in Model S or X (around 300 miles).

Thank you kindly.

PaceyWhitter | 10. mars 2017

Swing shift,

I was not saying that the Bolt has too much range for all people. As you have demonstrated, there will always be people with special needs. Some people like the President need a bulletproof car. That doesn't mean that all cars should be made to be bulletproof. My main question, and it was lost in all the bickering was that if a Bolt with 100-150 mile range would satisfy your daily commuting needs with a reasonable cushion. Statistics say that this is true for the vast majority of people. At that point, the only thing you would need more range for would be long distance travel. Since there is not an extensive L3 charging network for the Bolt, that is not really doable.

At that point, getting lower range and saving money (5000?) may be the more appealing option.

andy.connor.e | 10. mars 2017

@Pacey

Thats correct. I'd say most of peoples range anxiety is making sure that they can charge when needed and doesnt take 4 hours. (Imagine filling your gas tank took an hour). Maybe a smaller battery with super fast charging is the most practical for now.

KP in NPT | 10. mars 2017

@swingshift - Charging a Tesla on the supercharger network is a much different experience than using slower public chargers. My commute is 185 miles each way and I use superchargers with my 70D regularly - it's fast and convenient. I would say try to rethink your charging needs with a Tesla vs. any other BEV.

Carl Thompson | 10. mars 2017

I'm convinced. The information KP and others in this thread have provided pretty much proves to me that Teslas are (currently) the only electric cars out there that are reasonable to use for long trips.

Carl

swingshiftworker | 10. mars 2017

@topher: Technological issues aside, there are size, weight and cost considerations which will probably exclude a 90 or 100 kwh battery (the 85kwh battery is no longer) for use in a M3. Do you think they can offer a 90kwk battery for an M3 and keep the "base price" at $35k? Unlikely.

@PaceWhitter: The 100-150 mile range is all I need as far as using the Bolt is concerned.

@KP in NPT: Why should I rethink my charging needs in order to use the Bolt, Telsa or whatever? That's a** backwards. A car (whatever it is) needs to fulfill my needs (such as they are). If the car can't do what I need it to do, I'll just use another.

I've got 3 cars and a truck (including the Bolt) and am thinking of getting a 5th. Each serves a different purpose. So, I have no need to rethink my needs with regard to the Bolt or any other car I own/lease. I just use the car that best fits my needs,

@Car Thompson: There are those of us who don't need to use an EV for long trips. I'm one of them which is why the Supercharging network is meaningless to me in terms of my interest in buying/leasing an M3 or any other Tesla.

KP in NPT | 10. mars 2017

@Swingshift I'm saying you cannot equate charging a Tesla using superchargers to charging a Bolt, especially on longer trips. It's a completely different thing. Night and day. If you are basing what your EV charging needs are on your experience with anything other than a Tesla then you are making your judgement based on incomplete information.

Now, If you have experience road tripping and charging with a Tesla and still have that opinion, then fine.

EaglesPDX | 10. mars 2017

"My 208 miles of range S60 has been plenty for multiple cross country trips. I would never have enough time in a Bolt."

Bolt would add one hour per charging stop vs.the Tesla.

JeffreyR | 10. mars 2017

@ssw wrote, "There are those of us who don't need to use an EV for long trips. I'm one of them which is why the Supercharging network is meaningless to me in terms of my interest in buying/leasing an M3 or any other Tesla."

While you may not need Supercharging, because when you road trip you use a different car, the next owner may not be so inclined. If you just lease, then obviously that is not a concern either.

Once you do use the Supercharger network, you may find that it adds value and convenience you did not look for nor need, but you might end up enjoying it.

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