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Dangerous situation after canceling autopilot

Dangerous situation after canceling autopilot

When I cancel autopilot by using brake or steering wheel, autopilot is not totally cancelled but the function to keep the speed is maintained. Under such situation, I sometimes misunderstood that the autopilot is totally maintained and the car runs without problems for a while. Then, when the car encountered a curve of the roads, it tried to run straight and swerved the road. Only at that time, I could understood that the function of autopilot to control the steering wheel was off and could quickly use the steering wheel to avoid an accident. But I was so dangerous.

I think the autopilot should be totally made off (including the function to maintain the speed), when the driver use brake or steering wheel.

How do you think?

DRFLGD | 30 december 2018

What you're referring to is TACC (traffic-aware cruise control), not Autopilot. And all it takes is 1 time to realize that when you hit the brake, Autopilot turns off but not TACC.

p.c.mcavoy | 30 december 2018

@ihara - The functionality is clearly spelled out in the manual. If you disengage autosteer via manually controlling the steering wheel, TACC (traffic aware cruise control) remains active. If you press the brake pedal, both auto steer and cruise control are disabled.

From the section in the manual on disabling auto steer function it states:

“Note: If Autosteer cancels because you started steering manually, Traffic-Aware Cruise Control remains active. Disengage Traffic- Aware Cruise Control as you normally would, by pressing the brake or briefly pushing the cruise control lever away from you.”

ihara | 30 december 2018

Thanks guys! So, my suggestion to Tesla should be that TACC should also be made off when the driver uses the steering wheel to stop the control of the steering wheel during autopilot.

p.c.mcavoy | 30 december 2018

@ihara - sorry, I disagree. If you wish to disable both, you already have the option to do that by just pushing the TACC/AP stalk forward and cancel both at the same time. Disabling via manually taking over steering provides the ability to disable just steering and not cruise control if that’s the operator’s desired functionality.

ihara | 30 december 2018

@p.c.mcavoy
I agree you opinion makes sense. On the othe hand, the situation I cancel the autosteer means a somewhat dangerous situation, e.g. the car does not read line correctly. Being not panic but not in normal feeling under such time, I think TACC also should be off. A kind of “fail safe” point of view.

Silver2K | 30 december 2018

IHara, tacc was still active when you hit the brakes? That's a malfunction. The brakes disable both AP and TACC. When taking over steering (as stated above) TACC is still active.

Anthony J. Parisio | 30 december 2018

I do not feel that it is dangerous at all. There are many times when I just want to speed to be controlled but not the steering. I think Tesla has programmed it correctly. I am very happy with the way the system works.

diegoPasadena | 30 december 2018

"I cancel the autosteer means a somewhat dangerous situation, e.g. the car does not read line correctly. "

Actually, by disabling auto-steer, you specifically *told* it to behave in a certain way. The car is seeing the lines correctly, but it no longer follows them, because you told it not to. You took over sole steering responsibility.

I agree that before you're used to the whole auto-pilot scenario, you might forget what mode you're in. I have on occasion forgotten that I had cancelled auto-steer and had to react quickly when the car didn't follow a turn on the freeway, but that's on me. *I* need to be aware at all times. When in doubt, a quick glance to the blue steering wheel icon on the screen will tell me all I need to know.

There is always a potential for mistakes, no matter what technology we use. Automatically canceling both features might introduce other dangers caused by unintended deceleration. In time, understanding the car's modes will be second nature.

ihara | 30 december 2018

@Silver2K “Brake” was my mistake. I just confused.

ihara | 30 december 2018

@diegoPasadena
I totally agree. It would be better to change the UI in a way that the monitor reminds the driver that TACC is still active when only autosteer is disabled.

hammer @OR-US | 30 december 2018

@ihara "It would be better to change the UI in a way that the monitor reminds the driver that TACC is still active when only autosteer is disabled."

It does, there is an audible, high/low beep when the autosteer is disengaged and the dashboard Autosteer indicator color changes also the lane lines change color while the TACC speed indicator remains lit.

Bighorn | 30 december 2018

User error.

2015P90DI | 30 december 2018

Hitting the brake pedal disengages BOTH TACC and Auto Steer at the same time. Just turning the wheel to over power and take control of steering only disengages auto steer.

I do agree that that they should probably go ahead and have this maneuver disengage both TACC and Auto-Steer. I do the same thing. Grab the wheel to take control and it still surprises me when the car starts to accelerate.

I can see where your mind thinks because you've grabbed the wheel and disengaged Auto Pilot, you natural reaction is that you're now in complete control when in reality, you're just in control of the steering. For example, you grab the wheel because AP doesn't respond fast enough to make the lane change around a slower car in front. Then when you get to the clear lane, the car all of a sudden accelerates to get back to the set speed, but you're not necessarily ready or expecting it to do so since in your mind, you took over already and may be slowing down to get over for an off ramp or to get behind another car in yet another lane over, yet now the car speeds up. It just doesn't feel natural. Despite my having used AP since it first came out 4 years ago, still throws me off. Obviously I know what to do to resolve it. Not sure what the right answer is. I guess for me, I would prefer that if you grab the steering wheel to take over, that it resets the maximum speed to whatever speed you're currently at so it doesn't accelerate. I'd prefer it just maintain the speed. Since I have to re-engage auto-steer anyway, once I'm in the new lane, I can reset the speed then. Just would prevent the uncomfortable unexpected acceleration.

p.c.mcavoy | 30 december 2018

@2015P90DI - “... Grab the wheel to take control and it still surprises me when the car starts to accelerate.“

Actually with the latest 2018.48.12.1 software I’ve noticed that when you disengage AP by taking control of steering TACC stays activated but the set speed actually is reset to your current speed. This eliminates the acceleration if you’ve pulled around an object/slower car, but you can find in other threads people complaining about this being unsafe as you’ve pulled around to pass, expect the car to accelerate, and it doesn’t.

Bottom line, there is no single design implementation which everyone will agree to be the ‘best’, ‘correct’, or even the ‘safest’. What I find is more important is that I understand how the design implementation so I know how to correctly anticipate the car’s behavior.

Madatgascar | 30 december 2018

The icons could be more apparent. There are many ways to get in trouble. For example, I’ll often defeat the EAP speed restriction on long straight rural roads by holding the accelerator down to go faster, OR by using TACC only (which allows higher speeds) and handling the steering myself. So as far as the human interface is concerned, on a long drive one may use five different driving modes: hands, feet, both, neither, and feet with a minimum speed that kicks in as you let off the accelerator. The driver needs to remember what mode they are in at all times.

redacted | 30 december 2018

Doesn't the car make the two-tone autopilot disengaged sound when you disengage it by the wheel or brake? That would seem to be sufficient to understand it's not going to steer any more.

ihara | 30 december 2018

The point is I sometimes misunderstand the mode. If it is the same for others (espacially those who are not so familiar with autopilit), it would be better for Tesla to improve UI.

ihara | 30 december 2018

How about a simple solution, i.e., showing a message “Autosteer was canceled.” for several seconds?

p.c.mcavoy | 30 december 2018

@ihara - The UI already provides an audible warning when autosteer is first disabled and continuous visual indications on the instrument panel by the steering wheel icon being gray and not bright blue plus the lane makings being in gray and not bright blue. I do not think adding yet another visual indicator in a text message will make any significant difference given the existing three indicators from the UI that are already provided.

ihara | 30 december 2018

@p.c.mcavoy
I think the point is whether the current UI is sufficient for ordinary people to easily understand what the current mode is. A more easy-to-understand UI is preferable.
Another idea is reviving the legacy speed dial; the dial appears when the driver drives by himself or herself while the curreny UI appears when TACC or autopilot is active.

NKYTA | 30 december 2018

I agree. User error.

ihara | 30 december 2018

Because I love Tesla, I wish Tesla would be perfect. Yes, it will be judged as user error. But, it is stiil better to design cars to avoid user errors.

scabello800 | 30 december 2018

This issue must be addressed. I have done this exact same thing... and ive owned my car for two years.
User error? Yes. Does user error mean the UX is good? Hell no

Why does this fail for me?
1. Autopilot sometimes can suck and i have to deactivate by steering repeatedly
2. You get tired of reactivating —im probably thinking “in a minute ill reactivate”
3. I dont use TACC by itself normally
4. You get to a curve and realize AP is off!

One solution is to make AP reliable and not so shitty

Silver2K | 31 december 2018

I sometimes wonder how some of you got past kindergarten.

PhillyGal | 31 december 2018

@Ihara - Glad you're okay. Tough lesson. I do agree that if you don't already know that, cancelling the autosteer portion but leaving on the TACC by mistake can be scary. I trust you won't make the same mistake again.

I also agree that the best designs do limit user error as best they can.

Mozart | 31 december 2018

Some people complain when the sky is blue

ktslab | 31 december 2018

Isn't the icon for the cruise (TACC) remains blue? if so, you know the TACC is engaged.

I found the best way to cancel the autopilot is to push the stick forward. I'm always worried about hitting the brake will cause unnecessary panic for the car behind me.

AERODYNE | 31 december 2018

Have to agree with Bighorn and Phillygal. One should peruse the documentation provided by the mfg, otherwise known as RTFM. Suggest to train yourself for a proper flow. Push the stalk forward to cancel AP and TACC. Then, when safe, engage TACC when needed, and then AP.

sentabo | 31 december 2018

I think the best "solution" to the "problem" is to not use AP or TACC until you are fully aware of how each feature disengages. Once you RTFM (sorry, couldn't resist) there shouldn't be any issue at all.

AERODYNE | 31 december 2018

For those that are more receptive to visuals, suggest viewing the many YT tutorials...

ihara | 31 december 2018

@PhillyGal
Thank you for your warmful comments.
I will try not to cancel autopilot by using the steering wheel only but to try to use the beake as well.
I still wish Tesla to add an option in which TACC ia also canceled when autosteer is canceled.

p.c.mcavoy | 1 januari 2019

ihara | December 31, 2018 - “I still wish Tesla to add an option in which TACC ia also canceled when autosteer is canceled.”
———————————
@ihara - The feature exists. Just push the AP/TACC control stalk away from you and both AP and TACC are cancelled.

Bighorn | 1 januari 2019

Or tap the brakes.

carlk | 1 januari 2019

Like p.c.mcavoy said always use the stalk to cancel the autopilot. Make a habit to do that even after certain function is already truned off by steering wheel or brake already.

Silver2K | 1 januari 2019

Or tap the brakes (breaks).

Both ways, the brake (breaker) lights are activated (when releasing accelerator and pushing stalk away to cancel AP and TACC)

Yodrak. | 1 januari 2019

"I think the point is whether the current UI is sufficient for ordinary people to easily understand what the current mode is. "

As an ordinary person, I find the existing UI sufficient. Adding a message that lasts only a few seconds won't help if a person is not looking down at the display during those few seconds. The audible alarm alerts me to a change of mode without distracting my visual awareness of what's going on around me, and when I do have a chance to look at the dash display the existing clearly UI tells me the status of the car's driver assist features.

redacted | 1 januari 2019

Use the stalk, Luke. Then you'll have no ambiguity.

Boonedocks | 1 januari 2019

@ihara - The feature exists. Just push the AP/TACC control stalk away from you and both AP and TACC are cancelled.
———

Just wait....the way Tesla just dumbed down “broke” TACC when manual steering disengages AutoSteer since 2018.48* you may get your wish in an not too distant update and have all autonomy canceled.

ps. Why can’t Tesla allow some of of these changes to be user selectable? The new TACC behavior when overriding AutoSteer is actually way worse than a nuisance.....it is an unsafe change to make without at least acknowledging it in the release notes. I have emailed and “bug reported” and called to express my opinion of this new unsafe and unannounced change.

BPSoCal | 1 januari 2019

RTFM. Read the manual.

Someone recently asked me how autopilot works in his new Tesla and I told him to read the manual first, then ask me specific questions. I’ll be happy to demonstrate in person to him, but not before he reads all the warnings and operation guidelines.

ihara | 3 januari 2019

I got an idea.
The basic problem exists in that the normal driver (especially who are familiar with autopilot (or Level 3 autopilot in future) but not familiar with TACC) may easily misunderstand that the autosteer is still active after it is cancelled.
Of course, the driver must grasp the steering wheel under TACC and Tesla cars can detect whether or not the driver is grasping the steering wheel.
So, my latest request to Tesla is showing an alarm when the driver does not grasp the steering wheel for a several seconds under TACC (a similar alarm that is shown when the driver does not grasp the steering wheel for a certain period of time under the autopilot mode).

ihara | 3 januari 2019

For the rest of us, including me, I believe this alarm will be useful.

sentabo | 3 januari 2019

But ihara, you now know after reading this thread (or the manual, but that's a whole new discussion) that if you want to turn off both AP and TACC all you have to do is push the stalk out. I probably do that two or three times on any 20-minute drive on the freeway. No alarm necessary.

ihara | 4 januari 2019

@sentabo
Yes, now I know what to do.
But not everyone under any situation.
I still believe TACC without touching the steering wheel is dangerous, either on purpose or not.

murphyS90D | 4 januari 2019

If you keep your hands on the steering wheel for TACC only and for auto steer like you are supposed to there is no problem. Most of my driving is TACC only. I play with auto steer but don't trust it at all. I follow along with auto steering movements and when it starts to do something I don't agree with I prevent it from happening. The classic case is fast left and right steering movements at the crest of a steep hill when it is looking out into space because the road is not visible. Under no circumstances would I want TACC to be cancelled when I force auto steer to disable. That happens many times a day for me if I am seeing what auto steer can do. I do not use it on a regular basis. It is not much better than the lane keeping option in my 2013 Ford Fusion Energi which uses the same MobilEye chip that is in my 2016 AP1 model S.

ihara | 4 januari 2019

@murphyS90D
Currently, I agree with you; it is better to keep our hands on the steering wheel even with autosteer. But how about Level 3 autopilot in future?

Anyway, adding the alart for not touching the steering wheel under TACC does not bother you at all, because you will definitely not see the alart.

redacted | 4 januari 2019

@ihara we understand your point.

Haggy | 7 januari 2019

I've had that situation where I disengage the steering and am surprised at some point when I realize that ACC is still on. But it's probably safer since it keeps my speed reasonable, and if I take my foot off the pedal to slow down and that makes me recognize that it's on, then I probably want to leave it on anyway.

Roamer@AZ USA | 7 januari 2019

After passing 1000 trucks on Interstate 10 between LA and Phoenix I realized why Tesla designed the system to leave speed control active while manually steering the vehicle.

Roamer@AZ USA | 7 januari 2019

After passing 1000 trucks on Interstate 10 between LA and Phoenix I realized why Tesla designed the system to leave speed control active while manually steering the vehicle.

carlarichi3344 | 8 januari 2019

Nice post thanks for sharing.

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