Looks like the Taycan information embargo is over:https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/09/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about...https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a28899036/2020-porsche-taycan-photos-i...https://www.motortrend.com/news/2020-porsche-taycan-electric-car-range-i...
Love it or hate it, it's a well-executed EV with a lot of buzz around it. IMHO, if there were a real charging network for it, it would be a huge success.
why would elon worry about a family sedan "competing" with a sports car. He has the roadster for that.
Heck, the P3D is a pretty good match on the track and its a family sedan.
Taycan is either: a) the worlds first 4-door sports car or b) a 5,000 lb sport sedan just like Model S.
No stock Tesla available today will beat Taycan on a race track. Sorry that upsets some of you but it’s just a fact. Like I said before, hopefully it inspires Tesla to make enhancements to Model S lineup.
1) Tesla gets new software every day and 2) you have no idea how a Toucan will perform since they’ve never actually mass produced any.
Their “record” was for a 4-door non production EV.
I hope this does upset you
SamO I’m not upset, I’m objective and explaining the merits and purposes of both vehicles. You and others are so fixed on 0-60 times and maximum range but you don’t see the design trade offs Tesla made to achieve that. VW group has had time to study the market and they are building cars accordingly. Since they have plenty of sales in every product category, they don’t need to take the same risk that Tesla has to get 0-60 times that are truly intended for marketing rather than sustainable performance. That’s why Tesla has had to add battery shields and push software downloads that stop customers from breaking the cars. It’s good execution from both sides. Tesla did what it needed to do to get market share and survive. VW is doing what it needs to do to enter the market with performance and quality its customers expect.
@Darth: What stock Porsche EV is available today?
‘Tighter dimensions and heavier weight give it a track advantage’
FIRST time I’ve heard that bring heavier = better handling.
There is aero downforce advantage at very high speeds. But that is controlled. Having a heavier curb weight which is uncontrolled (it is with you ALL the time, whether situation needs it or not) is NOT an advantage.
Taycan doesn’t have ‘tighter dimensions’. It has almost identical dimensions save a lower roofline. That doesn’t do much for track times as much as Porsche’s suspension tuning.
I can’t get past the name “Turbo”. I can see it now, the marketing team was sitting around the conference room table. Someone makes a joke: “Let’s call it a Turbo”. After the laughter ends, the boss says:
“Wait a minute, I like that name!” Since he (and it must have been a he, no gender-bias intended) is the boss, the name stuck because it infers macho-laden-power.
It’s unbelievable that a fossil-era term was used for Porsche’s flagship EV. Marketing teams should choose more forward-looking names. What do I know, I’m just an engineer.
Using the term “turbo” is directed towards Porsche customers. In an interview, a Porsche rep said that Porsche fans have come to associate “turbo” as being the top of the line version. Presently all 911s are turbo charged, but they are not all labeled as 911 Turbo’s. Like AMG for Mercedes, “Turbo” for Porsche is just a marketing bit that appeals to those that want to be seen as something few people can afford.
It’s a bit too early to be certain about this, but I have a feeling that using the term “Turbo” for an EV will be mocked/seen as a joke amongst Porsche owners/fans. Especially those who actually own real Porsche Turbos, they will feel insulted.
@Redshift if you take snippets of my words out of context then it can mean whatever you want. But in the rest of that post I was referring to the systems in that car that contribute to the weight. Things like the cooling and transmission...
I'm sill waiting .....
@Jim you’ll be waiting quite a while. Trivial questions from you aren’t on my priority list. You can save yourself some time by just getting to your point. I’ll give you the dopamine hit you’re looking for then...
so, you agree your point was moot?
Um, dude, ultimately, curb weight is curb weight. Sure, the additional cooling might give the Taycan more laps. That doesn’t mean it’s a better track car than a lighter weight car. I’m not necessarily talking about another EV. I’m talking in general. A 5100+ lbs curb weight isn’t going to make for a great track car, no matter who makes it.
I chose a S60 over an S85 in 2013 because of lower curb weight of 4460 lbs vs 46xx lbs. I drove them one after another and could find the difference in handling in the twisties.
Curb weight kills. Simple.
If Porsche really wanted the attributes of a great track car, the body would have been carbon fiber to offset the additional weight of cooling. Even Aluminim, like the S. Taycan does have some Aluminum, but obviously the curb weight speaks for itself in the end. BMW i3 at a much lower price point offers more CFRP.
This is why I have problems with the Taycan - it seems it’s a half hearted effort in every goal it wanted to achieve.
I have no doubt the Taycan is a better track car. The S has shortcomings plenty in that area. But the S hits many of *its* design goals out of the park though.
@Red I agree with you. I’m comparing it to Model S and an EV on the track. Against lighter ICE cars both Model S and Taycan are dealing with huge weight issues. I disagree that Taycan is half hearted. Why do you think so?
"If Porsche really wanted the attributes of a great track car, the body would have been carbon fiber to offset the additional weight of cooling. Even Aluminim, like the S"
There are better track times by EVs.
Tesla 5 : Porsche ? -- but it doesn't matter. Its actually a win for both. The rest of the car company
Tesla has won from the very fact that:
- they have already gotten Porsche to spend hundreds of millions of euros developing an EV
- they have Porsche linking performance with an EV. This is just public validation that EVs are real. Coming from arguably the best mass-market performance car company is HUGE.
- Tesla, being the target, gets huge publicity
- Even if the Model S doesn't quite beat the Taycan, folks are going to be happy with their sedan that is in the same league as a Porsche.
Porsche wins because they're establishing themselves as a contender in the future of the automobile. We know that many of today's auto companies won't survive electrification. Porsche has a chance now.
The human race wins for all of the above reasons and more.
@Earl and Nagin ... +100
Very nice perspective. Wish it was contagious ;-)
Who here would buy the Porsche Taycan if it was the same price and the same range as a Model 3 Performance? (or Model 3 Turbo S) call it however you like it better if you’re a Porsche fan.
range is more important to me than performance beyond what I have in my P3D
Heck, I never use that capability anywhere near its max
I’d consider a Taycan for $80,000 if they built a network of 270kW stations covering the United States.
Taycan is an admission by the premier sports car brand that EVs are superior.
That’s a great step forward for all of us.
Porsche trades on its engineering prowess.
How is it that the upstart, Tesla, beats it on so many objective metrics, for half the price?
One give-away: Porsche could not match Tesla high and low speed acceleration even with a two-speed gearbox, where Tesla has a simpler and more reliable single reduction gear.
With this extra hardware, porsche should have trounced Tesla. Instead they can’t even match them.
That’s telling. Did Porsche flub the engineering? No. They are starting with less capable batteries and motor efficiency. Tesla owns that, and it’s a lynchpin in EV performance.
Do this thought experiment - for 50K extra, does anyone think Tesla could not offer anactive suspension and cooling package that would crush Taycan on the track?
The thing is, the volume is where Tesla is pricing it. Taycan will sell most of those 20K per year at a lower price with lower specs. The 150K at start is a minority of their sales projection.
Tesla is already their shipping 85K car that works better.
One of these companies is winning, and the other is wrapping marketing narrative and luxury adornments around their shortcomings.
It appears @Darth's talking point is that the Taycan is better on the track than Tesla. Whelp, if thats all the Porsche was able to accomplish then good for you. Not many people out there buying cars to exclusively drive them on the track. So Tesla can lose that category and win every other category INCLUDING SAFETY. So please sign yourself up to buy the overpriced, underperformed car that is better exclusively on "the track".
It's not just the track. The brand carries more prestige and will appeal to people who care about that sort of thing.
Ok, you're saying people are choosing the car because they want the brand name. Thats not what we are talking about here.
Long before Tesla, sorry to say, I always considered Porche as an overpriced and overhyped brand that has emphasized a dated 50s look. Never understood the appeal, but marketing can do wonders to weak minds.
Time for a poll! How many of these can Porche find owners for the Taycan in the next 12 months? My guess is they will sell about 2,500 units.
Maybe. If people are looking to spend $200k on a car, they're probably waiting for Roadster 2.
The Porsche brand is $hit right now, since it was an active participant in DIESELGATE. The general public thinks they are about as "prestige" as Hitler.
Infamous ≠ famous
I think you are just about right. There's German "pride" in local technologies, but not many takers outside of Bavaria.
Porsche brand is not shit outside of activist. It carries A LOT of weight and it is why people will pay these prices.
Tesla brand is synonymous with the best EV’s in the world. If one wants the best EV, one buys a Tesla.
I dont understand what you are doing @Darth. You're like the spokesperson out there saying people will buy it solely because they like Porsche. That doesnt represent quality or anything other than Brand Loyalty. Which Has Nothing to do with whether or not the car is actually good.
So you've made your point, "people who like porsche will by a porsche." Ok, i believe you. There are people who would rather buy a $38k Chevy Volt than buy the SR+ Model 3. Good for them, brand loyalty means absolutely nothing. So now that you've made your point very clear, i dont understand what you are doing now. If you say it 50 times, does it mean more? Vehicle is inferior to Model S in price, quality, performance, longevity. Brand loyalty does not make the car better. Engineering and physics dictates that info, and the Taycan does not come out on top.
Believe me, we get that people have brand loyalty, and we dont care.
This is correct Tropopause. But Tesla doesn’t want to be the best EV. They want to be the best car.
If people buy the Taycan because it’s a good track car, not the best EV; why will people buy (the coming soon) Porsche SUV/Crossover EV that isn’t a track car and still inferior to Tesla EV’s?
Because they havent figured out where to put the goalpost for those cars yet.
Because they aren't inferior EVs. People do have preferences besides just Tesla. There's more to this than just spec sheets or wild claims about saving the planet.
yes theres brand loyalty, and willingly buying an inferior product at a more expensive price because you have an ego-driven wallet, and believe you are superior for purchasing a specific brand.
Andy what makes it inferior to you? Try not to confuse inferior with not suitable for your use case. None of these cars are "inferior". They are different.
Taycan is an exotic. Like the i8. Not meant to sell “well”.
Meanvile VW delays their mainstream offering.
yes, darth, some people want the "prestige" of having that name on their car
good for them
I am sure they will be happy with their purchase
I wouldnt trade for my P3D, even if it were the same price
but thats just me
Some people won’t buy Teslas because they think they are for liberals. Need to find EVs for those people.
@Darth "Andy what makes it inferior to you?"
Its not that i think that. Its not inferior to me. Its factually and physically inferior via vehicle specifications. Its not my opinion, its laid out clearly in the cars specifications and sticker price. Its up to you to deny/ignore it or accept it.
So you're declaring a car inferior based on specs and price? You're aware that they built to different specs and targeted towards different types of buyers?
If someone built two electric lawnmowers. One lasted 30 minutes, the other lasted 50 minutes. The one that lasted 30 minutes cost 1.5x as much as the one that lasts 50 minutes. What is the benefit of the higher priced lawnmower?