Enhanced Auto-Pilot (HW 2.5)

Enhanced Auto-Pilot (HW 2.5)

I currently have EAP using HW 2.5 and recently received the 2020.12.11.1 update.

To my surprise, I do not have any of the Red light/Stop sign features that other users are reporting. They stated they all have HW3, which i read is only for those users who purchased FSD.

When I check FSD and compare it to what I originally purchased (EAP) all of the items between the two are exactly the same! Does that qualify me to upgrade to HW3 without purchasing FSD? Do I get a reduced cost for FSD since I already paid $5000 for enhanced AP??

Is anyone else thinking the same?

RobAuto | 19 maj 2020

EAP Question

Joshan | 19 maj 2020

There is a reduction in price yes if you already own EAP. No you do not qualify for HW3.

Magic 8 Ball | 19 maj 2020

Terms on this have been clear from the beginning. You have to buy FSD to get HW 3.0 on a HW 2.5 car. FSD is not fully complete but EAP is.

vmulla | 19 maj 2020

EAP does not get you the stop sign/light indications on the screen; you need FSD for that. I noticed that the car detects stop signs/light; it just doesn't indicate it on the screen, nor does it act on behalf of the driver. The system alerts the driver under some circumstances.

jjgunn | 19 maj 2020

FSD should cost you an extra $3k-$4k -- simply look in your updated Tesla app under the upgrades section. You'll see your price.

EVRider | 19 maj 2020

Right now, adding FSD to EAP is $4,000 USD. Starting July 1, it will be around $5,000 (or so Elon says).

bpaul | 20 maj 2020

Hey, vmulla. I'm curious how you determined that an EAP car detected sings and lights. Which circumstances provide the alerts?

fazman | 20 maj 2020

@bpaul I have EAP on HW 2.5, I am able to see the detected lights after it did a MAP update a while back. I suspect it knows there is a traffic light at the intersection based on static MAP data. I do believe it can attempt to figure out the color too (Green/yellow/Red) based on the camera images (It is still machine learning to do this correctly). When I pass by the same traffic light controlled intersections, sometimes it guesses the color correctly (different actual color states matched with the same traffic light).

fazman | 20 maj 2020

As for upgrading to FSD, there is nothing compelling to spend $1k today to upgrade from HW 2.5 —> HW 3.0 let alone the current advertised price of $4k or the Juky 1st, 2020 price of $5k for FSD.

I’ll wait for someone to wreck their car and part out the HW 3 or future HW 3.x product at a cheaper price and DIY the install. It just doesn’t add any real value to me today.

That same $4k, $5k, or even $100k can be better used in the stock market to make even more money. My 2 hands and 2 feet make a better autopilot in 2020 or 2021 (No random braking for shadows, no incorrectly identified controls, and I am not providing any free data labeling).

I honestly believe Elon should pay each Tesla owner for all the data labeling efforts we make for him as he parches together the service.

derotam | 21 maj 2020

AHH, post nuked...Short version...

@bpaul: Tesla started testing stop light detection last year in EAP/HW2.5 cars. I currently have FSD / HW2.5 and I just got a stop light alert yesterday. I am assuming this is what vmulla saw. In my case, the car miss correlated the lights to the lanes and gave me an alert based on the red left turn arrow even though my lane light was green. It did put the light visualization up on the screen during the alert.

HW3, will give the processing power needed to be able to correlate the lights/lanes better, as well as the power to process a faster frame rate in order to keep track of the light status in time.

aperfectecho | 21 maj 2020

@RobAuto-I agree, the labeling of EAP/FSD has been a bit confusing in the past, and I wouldn't have know much about it if I hadn't been learning on these forums. Now, it looks much easier to understand what you're getting for your $.
I only did the FSD upgrade after the initial purchase when it dropped briefly to 2k$. That was discussed on this forum, where I picked up on it. Got the HW3 upgrade about a month or so ago, and have yet to fully test the new AP/safety features, but from what I have tested, it's really impressive, and definitely shows that Tesla has a great handle on what they're doing

JAD | 21 maj 2020

HW 2.5 never shows lights like HW 3. It does recognize them and will warn you if you are on AP and running a red light. The warning is almost too late to do anything.

HW 3 shows all lights and their status all the time. Along with bike lanes, turn lanes and a lot more.

So what the car shows on the screen is a lot different from it actually sees. The screen displays just a small subset of the information.

HW 2.5 lacks the redundancy needed for FSD, so EAP is meant as a drivers assist system, whereas FSD is meant to drive the car autonomously with no driver in the near?(definition varies greatly) future.

fazman | 21 maj 2020

So this really shouldn’t be a complicated thing for NVDA or TSLA to have figured out back in the AP1/AP2/AP2.5 days that the processor doesn’t have the cpu/gpu power to complete enough calculations to “do the job”. Also along the way we are going to be developing newer and more exiting features that was not on the road map at time of processing power calculation when determining need.

To me it doesn’t seem like even HW 3.0 has enough processing power to be able to handle the image processing for a real FSD (maybe just enough for what is currently on the road map for NoA for city). My feeling is that both the Model 3 and Model Y won’t have the bus speed to process enough information. Realistically we will need a new platform with newer tech like the CT to be able to get where it needs to be hardware wise and then maybe another 2-3 years for the software guys to catch up.

Just my guess...

Joshan | 21 maj 2020

so a person who knows nothing about engineering a self driving car and has no scientific data of any kind is doubting the actual scientists who have spend many years working on this....

Ya just another jackass.

bpaul | 21 maj 2020

Thanks, fazman. I'm a HW2.5 w/EAP driver, too, and I haven't seen any indicators of lights in my location. Tesla has been promising that their cars have everything they need for FSD for several iterations of hardware. It's enough to make you wonder if HW3 actually has what it needs.

There's value in Elon's approach that mistakes are tolerable so long as they're correctable, as is being done with all the 2.5 to 3 upgrades. But knowing that is the Elon way, total epistemilogical nihilism (e.g., "I'm not a self-driving AI expert, so I must trust Elon totally") isn't a sound strategy for good decision-making.

vmulla | 21 maj 2020

" I'm a HW2.5 w/EAP driver, too, and I haven't seen any indicators of lights in my location." @bpaul


If you're on HW2.5/EAP, do not expect to see any on-screen indicators of any lights/signs. However, if you observe the car's behavior, there are indications that it can detect signs/lights. I pay attention to the car's speed modulation at a traffic light under different conditions green/amber/red. There are some also obvious on-screen and audible alerts to take over when the light is red. @derotam said it for me, thank you.

To me, the signal/sign detections on surface streets are indications that HW2.5 can operate over and beyond its advertised capability, and that gives me confidence that HW3 is more than capable of achieving FSD*

*Your idea of FSD might not be the same as my idea of FSD - let's just get that out of the way.

bpaul | 21 maj 2020

Ah, gotcha. I misread fazman's FSD as EAP, hence my confusion.

I'm glad to see acknowledgement that this forum clearly contains different conceptions of what a feature-complete FSD is supposed to look like. The goalposts for that at Tesla have definitely moved, which I'm sure contributes to the confusion. That seems a topic for an entirely different post.

Tesla2018 | 21 maj 2020

I have 2.5 EAP.
Was using Nav on Autopilot on a.45 mph road that didn't show the single NOA line like on the highway. A light changed to red right as I was about to go past it. A big red brake pedal showed up and it said some other things but the warning disappeared after a second or two so I didn't see what it said.
I thought only 3.0 gave a warning if you were about to run a light. Will it automatically stop the car if you don't do anything?

JAD | 21 maj 2020

No, HW 2.5 only gives warnings. Never shows lights.

fazman | 21 maj 2020

@joshan, its okay if you don’t know anything about engineering. I’ve been in the software engineering field since the mid 90’s.

Please don’t be so hard on yourself @Joshan, Don’t call yourself a jackass... you should have some more self confidence. Maybe you might even get a lady friend with some confidence... but that would mean less time trolling forums.

derotam | 22 maj 2020

@Tesla2018: As I mentioned above, Tesla started testing the stoplight detection/warning last year in HW2.5 vehicles(I think even in EAP only vehicles). No, in HW2.5 vehicles the car will not act on the red light, it will only display the big red steering wheel and will show the stop light visualization.

As I also mentioned, in my situation that happened the other day, my car misread a left turn lane with it's own separate red arrow as being in my lane and gave me the warning which lasted through the entire transit through the intersection....while on AP. The car took no offensive action.

fazman | 23 maj 2020

@derotam - agreed... my EAP HW 2.5 also does not take action. However, when the feature first rolled out... when I reached the end of an off ramp controlled by a traffic light... the car would actually come to a stop (I assume this was map data based).

Same with when I first took delivery of my car around Nov 2018... when I would drive on EAP the car would come to a full stop at the end of the off ramp regardless of the traffic light or color (I assume by map data even wayyyy back then).

vmulla | 23 maj 2020

The car still slows down at the end of an off ramp at *some* exits. Perhaps it even comes to a stop, I have not tested it.

My take away from this thread is that the EAP cars are behaving as advertised.