Forums

OT Political Thread. Not for Tender Sensibilities. You've Been Warned.

OT Political Thread. Not for Tender Sensibilities. You've Been Warned.

Pity the Sad Legacy of Barak Obama

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/09/barack-obama-legac...

If TL;dr, here is the condensed version:

The age of Barack Obama may have been our last chance to break from our neoliberal soulcraft. We are rooted in market-driven brands that shun integrity and profit-driven policies that trump public goods. Our “post-integrity” and “post-truth” world is suffocated by entertaining brands and money-making activities that have little or nothing to do with truth, integrity or the long-term survival of the planet. We are witnessing the postmodern version of the full-scale gangsterization of the world.

The reign of Obama did not produce the nightmare of Donald Trump – but it did contribute to it. And those Obama cheerleaders who refused to make him accountable bear some responsibility.

In March 2009, Obama met with Wall Street leaders. He proclaimed: I stand between you and the pitchforks. I am on your side and I will protect you, he promised them. And not one Wall Street criminal prosecution.

US drone killings continue with no accountability.

Lack of support for BLM or Palestinians.

2/3 wealth growth to the top 1%

Support for Bloomberg stop and frisk and Rahm Emanuel's everything, with zero accountability

Demonizing dissidents like Snowden, Sterling and Manning

Obamacare is a Heritage Foundation, pork laden, corporate giveaway with 20M still uninsured.

A record 2.5 million deportations.

Bernie was punk'd by the DNC

The DNC is corrupt and doesn't fight for regular people

++++++++++++++++

I'm in agreement. After the last election the RNC at least went through the motions of trying to figure out why they were losing elections. Now, it's Russian hackers and Bernie, who subverted democracy instead of odious policies that demand corporate fealty.

Get a clue DNC and democratic politicians who ignore the will of the people at their peril. Go watch idiocracy to see our future when good men and women see wrong, and do nothing.

And lest you think I support our Orangutan-in-Chief, he will be covered in another post.

+++++++++++++++++

Update 9/9 The Best Case For Bernie.

https://www.salon.com/2019/09/09/dear-bernie-heres-how-you-can-still-win...

SCCRENDO | 30 mars 2017

@Remnant. Greetings from Israel. Will pray for you at the Western Wall on Sunday.

rxlawdude | 30 mars 2017

@SCC, give an extra sh'ma for me. The carpet scrap needs all the help it can get.

SCCRENDO | 30 mars 2017

@rxlawdude. Will do

SamO | 27 augusti 2019

Maybe some people should re-read this thread and remember that the DNC doesn't give two $hits about electability. Otherwise, why would they be against this guy:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/bernie-sanders-out-raises-joe-biden-in-oba...

Former Vice President Joe Biden has built his early polling lead in the 2020 Democratic primary on the argument that he is the Democratic candidate best positioned to take on President Donald Trump. He referenced his standing against Trump in the first TV ad he ran and has spoken repeatedly about winning over Republican voters who, he argues, have grown disenchanted with the president.

But in at least one “electability” metric, Biden is lagging behind his Democratic competition. In the 206 counties that voted for Barack Obama twice before backing Trump in 2016, the former VP has fewer donors than three primary opponents.

Per the mid-year ActBlue filing, it was known who was leading the donor race nationwide. But here is how it broke down in Obama-Trump counties specifically:

Sanders: 33,185 donors
Buttigieg: 14,294 donors
Warren: 13,674 donors
Biden: 12,040 donors

Tesla2018 | 27 augusti 2019

Trump will hammer Sanders about socialism. I'm curious as if there are any statistics as to how many Bernie voters got mad about Hillary screwing him over and decided to vote for Trump instead. if they vote for Bernie Instead this time Trump might lose some supporters.

SamO | 27 augusti 2019

They hammered Obama about "Socialism" and how'd that work out? Twice.

I'd suggest you turn off Fox and listen to Republicans like Harry Truman:

"Socialism is a scare word they have hurled at every advance the people have made in the last 20 years.

Socialism is what they called public power.

Socialism is what they called social security.

Socialism is what they called farm price supports.

Socialism is what they called bank deposit insurance.

Socialism is what they called the growth of free and independent labor organizations.

Socialism is their name for almost anything that helps all the people.

When the Republican candidate inscribes the slogan “Down With Socialism” on the banner of his “great crusade,” that is really not what he means at all.

What he really means is, “Down with Progress — down with Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal,” and “down with Harry Truman’s fair Deal.” That is what he means."

andy.connor.e | 27 augusti 2019

Political terms are used so loosely that the people hardly understand precisely what the candidate is referring to. This country is more socialist than people think.

Neomaxizoomdweebie | 27 augusti 2019

Except for the homeless, amaright? I mean, they just don’t go away no matter how much California taxes it’s citizens. Socialism my ass.

andy.connor.e | 27 augusti 2019

California has more problems than it can deal with. At least they provide a place where people can safely use heroin.

SamO | 27 augusti 2019

@andy,

70% of this country wants Medicare For All.

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/403248-poll-seventy-percent-of-ame...

Guess that 30% minority better "love it or leave it"

SamO | 27 augusti 2019

"Similarly, according to the Reuters poll, 79 percent of Democrats and 41 percent of Republicans say they support tuition-free college, amounting to 60 percent overall. "

https://jacobinmag.com/2018/08/medicare-for-all-free-college-tuition-abo...

andy.connor.e | 28 augusti 2019

Im in favor of medicine NOT for profit. Most of the drugs are just treating symptoms without addressing the underlying cause of the condition.

TeslaTap.com | 28 augusti 2019

@Neomaxizoomdweebie & @andy - Sounds like you are envious you don't live in California? Not sure where either of you live, but are you saying your state has no problems? No murders, no addicts, no crime, no homeless? I didn't know such a state exists. Not sure why the cheap shots at Californa unless you're glued to Faux news. Clearly, CA is not perfect, but I'd much rather be here than in any other state (except perhaps Hawaii). The USA would be screwed without Californa - with our residents paying far more in taxes to the US government than it gets back.

SamO | 28 augusti 2019

California is the sugar daddy to Red/GOP Amurica. I mean, what does California have except:

1200 miles of coast
2 of the world's greatest cities
SpaceX
Tesla
Silicon Valley
Lake Tahoe/Mammoth Lake/Big Bear
San Diego with the largest military base on the West Coast
The best state University system in the US
Joshua Tree
Hollywood
Most Video Game companies
20 state and national parks
Wine Country in 6 different locations
and so it goes.

andy.connor.e | 28 augusti 2019

Yes @TT. Thats what i said. I said my state has no problems. Thanks for the contribution.

rxlawdude | 28 augusti 2019

"The best state University system in the US" in spite of Prop 13.

SamO | 28 augusti 2019

Exactly. And the CSU and UC system has been low cost/free for much of its history.

California students with parent income under $60K don’t pay tuition/fees. (There are holes in this at the level of 2-3% of those students, though; see mention of undocumented students above.) Back in the Golden Past of the 60’s & 70’s, they would have paid $120/$240/$540 depending on year, which corresponds to $860/$1520/$2756 now, but they don’t pay tuition/fees now. So for those students, roughly half of all UC students, the situation is better now that the “tuition free” Golden Past. It’s actually much better now, because most of those students are getting money for living expenses, books, etc, from the federal government, state of California and UC. We write checks of up to $8K to students for their living expenses.

https://blogs.berkeley.edu/2010/03/31/a-closer-look-at-the-tuition-free-...

rxlawdude | 28 augusti 2019

That article is nine years old. I'd venture that tuition (they were "student fees" back when I went to UCLA @$208.50/quarter) doubled between then and now.

Another debate entirely, but higher education, like health care, has price increases that defy logic.

SamO | 28 augusti 2019

I saw that when I posted and thought . . . wonder how this has changed in the last decade. I imagine it has gotten "less" affordable vs more affordable. Especially when the cutoff is $60k. That's not much for most families. Low cost tuition was a UNIVERSAL benefit which caused it to be more accepted.

Making families pay $40,000 because they make $120,000 makes no sense.

But that's CA to a T. Phase out EV credits if you have too much income.

NOOOOOOOOOOO

Let rich people subsidize clean energy vehicles when they are expensive.

That's why I like basic income. Everyone gets it. Everyone buys in. It's universal.

Everyone wins.

blue adept | 5 september 2019

@SamO

While I loathe, abhor, and detest politics, I've a bone to pick about the whole '"free tuition" sentiment in that I don't understand why the banks are catching so much flack for offering student loans to those interested in furthering their education when it's the deflated employment market that is hamstringing a student's ability to repay their loan obligation/meet their financial obligations and eliminating any possibility of acquiring stable, profitable employment.

There are literally thousands of American companies that have outsourced their labor pools to overseas countries, the Asia-Pacific region in particular, effectively gutting the "middle class", disabling the typical even handedness of wealth distribution, and robbing Americans of jobs and opportunities for self-enrichment.

Take China for example, China's total wealth has risen 1,300 percent this century to $51.9 trillion, more than double the rate of any other nation, and they're churning out a new billionaire (yeah billionaire, with a 'b', completely leap-frogging the whole millionaire thing which is, apparently, passé to them) every 5 days!:

https://www.businessinsider.com/china-is-churning-out-a-new-billionaire-...

We've allowed a certain faction of our society to define the narrative by shifting the blame away from the actual culprits (the government and big business) and onto the banks who're really only doing what banks are there to do and whose employees are themselves only learning a living wage.

It's like that BS that went down in California over the decreasing availability of affordable living space/housing...

Everyone's attention was refocused onto the tech companies (who were only bringing new jobs to the area and reviving the local economy in the process) and away from the actual culprits, i.e., the land/property owners who took it upon themselves to jack up their rental prices to increase their profit margins because they knew the techies would be able to pay it and not because they actually had/deserved to, forcing their long term tenants (people who'd lived there the whole of their lives, even two to three generations worth in some cases) out because they couldn't afford the rent increases as a result.

I even saw some of the landlords own people (sons, daughters and cousins) out there mixed in with the crowds of protesters dictating the sentiment by egging them on.

I'm not siding with the banks (who have no control over the employment market) or the tech companies (who don't control or own the buildings/properties their employees were renting), I'm just saying that it's best to pay attention to ensure that those who're actually responsible get the blame and not the poor smucks who're only doing their jobs by providing financing for your education/just trying to expand the employment market.

SO | 5 september 2019

Bernie will get shut out again. Dems will lose because of it.

Biden seems like an okay guy to talk to but beyond that, he doesn’t seem “all there”.

Warren really tries too hard to suck up to her voters.

Yang is putting too much on the UBI right now.

SCCRENDO | 5 september 2019

@blue adept. Many of us here see the need for government intervention in many things. The label socialist gets thrown around as a way of smearing the ideas. Government is here for the well being of the people and the country. Which means they should not be helping polluting industries and billionaires. They need to help with basic human rights and steering the country in the right direction. The human rights include welfare, Medicare, Social Security and Healthcare. Steering the country in the right direction includes educating people and encouraging research. Certainly certain aspects of education could receive priority. As a scientist I am biased and think more people need to be redirected into STEM. Yes we do need manual labor as not everyone could go to college. But we still need to direct them into useful jobs. Yes coal miners need to disappear. Automation needs to take away many of those jobs. As a leading first world country we should be focussing on higher skilled jobs. And lets give up on shortsighted isolationism as we can continue to outsource our menial labor to other countries and immigrants. We just need to be sure that foreign workers are treated with dignity are paid a living wage and the jobs are regulated by environmental standards. We do not need to hold the country back to cater to to the less skilled.

skymaster | 5 september 2019

Mr. Trump will win his second term with ease..... because ..."Trump is the best president in the history of America since Abraham Lincoln "!!!!

SCCRENDO | 5 september 2019

Ironically The skymaster and the HADRON COLLIDER both like to avoid facts

skymaster | 5 september 2019

It's fruitless arguing with liberals. I simply stated my opinion and a prediction. I predict that Trump will win easily. We will see if this turns out to be fact......sorry, I believe FOX and not the rest of the media!!

andy.connor.e | 5 september 2019

Im not sure what will happen, but the media has been advertising Trump for 4 years straight now.

SamO | 5 september 2019

Joe Biden voted with the crony capitalists to prevent student loans from being discharged in bankruptcy. College prices have risen like drug prices because of government subsidy to the borrower which creates massive market distortion.

https://truthout.org/articles/millennials-are-the-most-indebted-generati...

andy.connor.e | 5 september 2019

Drug prices and college prices are a big issue. But its not all drugs, its the ones you have to take chronically. If i get an infection, an antibiotic is $2 at the pharmacy. My inhalers on the other hand are over $70 that people typically go through 1 per month.

How do we handle college tuition though? Who will flip the bill? I've advocated this before, but if we make college free, it should be reallocated tax dollars and does not result in a tax increase.

sabbia | 5 september 2019

Campaign cronies, personal cronies, even some cabinet level aides indicted *AND* convicted.

Suicides up (mostly middle-aged white men).

Nine of ten poorest states have Republican governors.

Manufacturing in recession.

95 of the 100 poorest counties are in Red states. Source: Politifact

Lowest unemployment rate in 50 years.

Ten of the Ten highest poverty rates are in Red states. Source Politifact

Hate crimes increase for third consecutive year. Source: FBI

More coal powered plants closed under Trump in 2 years than Obama in 4.

Children separated from parents seeking *legal* asylum.

Best president ever.

SCCRENDO | 5 september 2019

@andy. Border wall funds, removal of billionaire tax cuts, trips to Mar el Lago, oil subsidies, fruitless wars and so on could be some sources for government income. But if taxes need to go up to fund college for all then so be it. It is a strong investment in our future infrastructure. California used to do a great job with higher education even if it wasn't free. But they have reversed course lately.

andy.connor.e | 5 september 2019

Im in favor of cuts in all the fields you have listed. Would also be good to see the defense budget NOT increase annually.

SamO | 5 september 2019

Just the increase in defense spending this year would have paid for free public college, trade schools and Universities for two years.

The estimated cost of the program is $47 billion a year. That would cover, Sanders estimates, 67% of the $70 billion it costs for tuition at public colleges and universities. States, he proposes, would cover the remaining 33%.

A "speculation tax" would charge those in trade markets for each bond, stock or derivative they sell. It's often referred to as a "Robin Hood tax."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/college/2017/04/17/heres-how-much-bernie-...

andy.connor.e | 5 september 2019

Ya, i mean imagine what we could pay for if billion dollar corporations actually paid federal taxes.

sabbia | 5 september 2019

"Whoever knowingly issues or publishes any counterfeit weather forecast or warning of weather conditions falsely representing such forecast or warning to have been issued or published by the Weather Bureau, United States Signal Service, or other branch of the Government service, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ninety days, or both." Source: 18 U.S. Code § 2074

Question: If the president uses a sharpie to modify a weather forecast, does the false weather report then automatically become "official"? Does a false weather report become an official weather report because it is done by the best president ever? Asking skymaster or anyone else for that matter.

andy.connor.e | 5 september 2019

I've never considered the president a source for weather reports.

SCCRENDO | 5 september 2019

@andy. Our president can do anything. In his little mind he solves every problem in the world on his own without anybody's help. He needs to see his day in court. But he is well protected by the Justice Department and Moscow Mitch and colleagues

rxlawdude | 6 september 2019

@blue " I don't understand why the banks are catching so much flack for offering student loans to those interested in furthering their education when it's the deflated employment market that is hamstringing a student's ability to repay."

I guess the banks paying 0%-0.2% and charging student loan recipients 8-10% interest shouldn't generate flak.

SMH.

rxlawdude | 6 september 2019

("paying" meaning obtaining money at basically zero cost)

blue adept | 8 september 2019

@SCCRENDO

>>> "And lets give up on shortsighted isolationism as we can continue to outsource our menial labor to other countries and immigrants."

I agree with pretty much of everything that you said right up to this point as those so-called "menial labor" jobs are what make up much of what we refer to as the middle class workforce, our country's backbone, that makes up our economy's stratified 3 tier hierarchy or ladder of financial achievement, personal enrichment and economic security which ensures that we don't descend into a two-class economic system composed of the haves and the have-nots that only breeds the sort of heightened socio-cultural injustices and civic disharmony and unrest that has already been largely brought about by our government allowing the outsourcing of our middle class as it is.

What with companies large and small alike sending middle class jobs elsewhere...

https://www.citizen.org/wp-content/uploads/gjn-gtw-report-federal-contra...

...It is easy to see just how ill-advised such a suggestion is no matter however seemingly disparaging the terminology ("shortsighted isolationism") you might chose to define it with as stupid is as stupid does.

Again, it's never been a matter of 'holding the country back to cater to the less skilled', but proving an opportunity for everyone to lift themselves up through hard work, perseverance and dedication to the goal of self improvement, i.e., "The American Dream," as it is our country that should be producing millionaires at an exponential rate and not helping other countries to do so at our population's expense.

What else was there...?

Yes, our 'government is [meant to be] here for the well being of the people and the country", unfortunately it seems to have become an arm/extension of corporations and industrialists machinations, a way for them to enact their desires on the country, the nation, even the world for the benefit of themselves and their shareholder's "bottom lines" at the sacrifice of everyone else including future generations for the selfish pursuit of their own personal gain.

Relying on tropes, political or otherwise ("socialist"), is an affectation of an immature, weak-minded person lacking the mental aptitude required to engage in intelligent and mature conversation.

We need to do away with the mining and use of coal as a fuel source altogether, so no votes from me for automating the process as the landscape, environment and atmosphere have all suffered enough already and for generations to come at that.

p.s. You really could do with some work on how to form proper paragraphs as these compound ones you make use of tend to cause relevant points of contention to go (no doubt intentionally) unnoticed, just saying.

blue adept | 8 september 2019

@SCCRENDO

Oh yeah, care to explain what you meant by the LHC allegedly liking to "ignore facts"...?

blue adept | 8 september 2019

@SCCRENDO

Add fossil fuel subsidies to your list and that would cover the bill without any additional financial input with plenty left over for, say, infrastructure repairs and upgrades.

blue adept | 8 september 2019

@SamO

That sounds interesting, a "speculation tax", sorta like having them pay a dividend for the work they do, like a marginal amount of their profit from the sale.

blue adept | 8 september 2019

@rxlawdude

Actually, to make a profit, banks must charge an interest rate that is more than what they pay out on those interest-earning deposits.

Banks get the funds that they then use to lend out to borrowers from many sources besides deposits, such as from what they borrow from each other, so the cost of borrowing money from other banks must also be factored into their prime rates.

Most U.S. banks rely on the Federal Funds Rate, which is the interest rate at which depository institutions trade balances at the Federal Reserve. In other words, the Federal Funds Rate is what banks are typically charged when borrowing from other banks.

https://www.netcredit.com/blog/setting_interest_rates/

So now you've got a loan with an interest rate based off of what a bank had to pay to get the money they're loaning to you plus a small profit which is typically set the treasury, then a student's interest rate is divided by the number of days in the year to get the “interest rate factor” which is then multiplied by the loan balance and then multiplied by the number of days since the last payment with the result being how much interest you are charged for that period.

https://studentloanhero.com/featured/how-student-loan-interest-works/

This is the way that it has been done for decades with the only change or alteration in the system being the outsourcing or "offshoring" of our middle class job opportunities to other countries that the student body would, typically, make use of to repay their incurred financial obligations, you know, like adults do as part of making their own way in Life.

blue adept | 8 september 2019

Again, I'm not siding with the banks, nor am I playing "devil's advocate".

I am only stating the facts as defined by our country's current state of affairs and the customary way that the loan business has been conducted for decades.

blue adept | 8 september 2019

In the interest (pun intended) of full disclosure, I myself did not have to obtain any loans to pay for my education as I was, essentially, bribed to go to college with academic scholarships, but I was fully aware of the processes that would be involved were I to decide to seek "higher education" on my own.

SCCRENDO | 8 september 2019

@blue adept. Too much to unpack here. Paragraphs?? Nah. This forum isn’t worth it. Quick responses on my iPhone is all I have time for. In the long term those jobs are going to disappear. Just let it happen slowly. Stop propping those jobs up. Retrain these workers for green jobs

SCCRENDO | 8 september 2019

@blue adept. Too much to unpack here. Paragraphs?? Nah. This forum isn’t worth it. Quick responses on my iPhone is all I have time for. In the long term those jobs are going to disappear. Just let it happen slowly. Stop propping those jobs up. Retrain these workers for green jobs

rxlawdude | 8 september 2019

@blue "This is the way that it has been done for decades."
Hmm. In the mid-1970s, Health Professions Student Loans were 4%, while my private student loan rate from the bank was around 7%.
Are you contending that today, PRIVATE student loan rates are determined by the federal government? Please cite.

The question is, should these loans be profit centers (even a "small profit") for big banks? Or does it make more sense for the federal government to take over student loans and charge a reasonable rate, no profit needed, so students aren't saddled with 7-10% interest that basically is a financial prison for many?

jimglas | 8 september 2019

When I went to UCLA in the early 70's
My "tuition" (called registration fees then) was $98.50 per quarter
Yes, less than $300 per year
I could work part time and during the summer and pay for my college education
Then Raygun happened and everything changed

SamO | 9 september 2019

Apparently people want Bernie Sanders to go after Elizabeth Warren.

She’s making deals with Clinton and DNC delegates . . . so let’s get ready to contraaaaaaaaaaast. (Said in best Michael Buffer voice)

https://www.salon.com/2019/09/09/dear-bernie-heres-how-you-can-still-win...

Pages